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On December 06 2011 20:55 A Wet Shamwow wrote:
I will still never understand this article, isn't it just common sense that good RTS players will be good at a RTS?
To be fair, the sentiment was that the current SC2 competition was a farce because the better players were off playing another game. While I wouldn't go that far (since personally, it's not fair to those players shining right now in SC2), I do think that full-time BW A-teamers, with their talent, stamina, and experience, will all play, at minimum, as well as MVP is playing now. I mean, even ignoring TaekBangLeeSsang, if someone like Modesty, or Hyuk, or Soo switched, Nestea might be out of a job as Zerg King. I can't wait personally to watch Hyun play Zerg in SC2. Point is - their base mechanical and tactical experience (since they'd been sent out more in high-pressure scenarios than the current crop of SC2 stars when they first picked up SC2) are higher, and therefore, the assumption is they'd play better.
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On December 06 2011 20:51 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 20:34 Squeegy wrote:On December 06 2011 20:11 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:56 chenchen wrote:On December 06 2011 19:47 bittman wrote:On December 06 2011 19:36 hasuterrans wrote:On December 06 2011 19:32 bittman wrote:
Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread... Fuck yeah that's the only remaining point. And it's going to keep getting bumped  Forgg said in his previous interview (before his match tonight) that he has only been legitimately practicing sc2 for 2 months. He's been practicing an RTS game with 3 races, army control, economic management, build orders, unit compositions, abilities, counters, positioning and mind games for years already. To be honest, he is of the level I expect from a BW pro. The only real reason I think this thread is being bumped is that BW pros of decent ability statistically (not named MVP) haven't done well already. For every MVP and ForGG, there's been a July, Boxer and Nada who have the mind, history and mechanics of a champion but are only middle of the road. Of course, they're past their prime, but still. Also I never got the point of the entire article. Players who are the best at a game similar to another will be the best at it? Well of course. If Moon committed to SC2 he'd be pretty sick too, but it's fairly obvious this is part time to him. The lack of understanding of BW history displayed in the SC2 community is truly shocking. By the time they switched over to SC2, Nada, Boxer, and July were all terrible at BW. None of them were fielded regularly in proleague and they never got far in individual leagues after 2008. They were far better skillwise than they were at their prime, winning starleagues left and right, but everyone else improved so much more. The current best SC2 players in the world also excelled at BW (MVP, MMA, MC, Bomber, Ganzi, Puma were all better at BW than everyone else. Neatea was a coach, so he had a very deep understanding of BW despite being an older guy). The best out of them at BW, probably MVP (he was more successful in 2010 than forGG), was a very mediocre A teamer. It is entirely unsurprising to me that he's also the most consistently highly skilled out of all current SC2 pros. A class and S class BW players have a far deeper understanding of Starcraft than MVP and if they ever do switch over to SC2, the current SC2 pros would all be completely outclassed. Apologies, as an SC2 fan perhaps I didn't give Brood War the proper wide bearing so as not to tread on toes. Yes, I do know the three mentioned players were past their prime. In fact, I might have even typed that in my post. The lack of reading of SC2 posts by BW fans is truly shocking =P (j/k) Yes, most of the good SC2 players were good / decent BW players in their own respect (well not MC though). Most being a keyword of course if I want to wade into the debate heavily, since the article is highly dismissive of rising players and players finding their legs in the variations of mechanics between the two games. It basically says that perhaps the pros that switched could have perhaps been successful at BW, but doubtfully; which is offensive to the rise of new players and improvement of ex-BW players in general. I never said that I didn't think BW players would and could be the top of SC2. If perhaps you misread / disregarded my entire post as "omganothermisguidedsc2fanwhodoesntgivebwtheproperrespect", then I apologise. Basically you latched onto the fact that I compared ForGG to ex-BW high level players, so I'll retract that and never call them good BW players again =/ Some of the current best SC2 players are also Leenock, Jjakji and Stephano. Can I at least logically have BW fans acknowledge that there are players in SC2 this very narrow "room" cannot define? MC, Leenock and Jjakji are formerly of BW, which you seemed to imply they were not. Played BW or were pro-gamers. Cause considering Leenock and jjakji their ages i have a hard time to believe this. Liquidpedia also doesn't saids anything.
Both were very good amateurs.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12520426
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241675
Such is the might of BW.
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I had completely forgetten about the jjakji all-kill, what good games he showed. I had been brushing him off for a while, even halfway through this season.
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Go ForGG... errr, oGsFin!
It's been mentioned plenty, but not nearly enough, that this guy not only knocked out both Jaedong and Flash to win his MSL title, but that he was also their former teammate and practice partner for a number of years before switching. I expect him to win the next GSL, and if not then the next, then the next, then the next.
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I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen.
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On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
Very interesting read, but I just had to comment on this.
Beckham and football, what?
Maybe you could say Pele or something but not Beckham :p
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On December 07 2011 09:10 iLikeRain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
Very interesting read, but I just had to comment on this. Beckham and football, what? Maybe you could say Pele or something but not Beckham :p
Hey man, Beckham is the Bonjwa of LA Galaxy
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On December 07 2011 09:08 Marconos wrote:
I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen.
show me the cheese games :D but since u are a SC2 playe.r everytime u attack before 20 minutes its a cheese right?.
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On December 07 2011 09:08 Marconos wrote:
I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen.
As a matter of fact, it is the players that think they can beat anyone just by figuring out "the style" and coming up with a counter build that will hit the brick wall pretty soon. 
Style isn't why fOrGG is winning. Execution is.
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On December 07 2011 09:08 Marconos wrote:
I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen.
I disagree, for a couple reasons. One is meta-gamey, the other is based on fOrGG's history. In reverse order then...
Way back in 2008 when we assumed SC2 was somewhere in the same universe as Duke Nukem Forever (is that a bad comparison now?), fOrGG was on the power rank for several months, and in July FakeSteve had this to say about him:
fOrGG is kind of an odd player. Most of the decisions he makes are merely common ProGamer sense. His micro is laughable at times. He has always made more units than anyone on earth (besides iloveoov of course), and therein lies his strength. fOrGG is very hit-or-miss, but he displayed a surprising amount of flair against Kal. Enough for me to publicly acknowledge that he is really, REALLY fucking good at making units.
People would publicly agitate (and by "people" I mean "me and I swear I wasn't the only one") for fOrGG-BeSt games just to see how many bazillion units could be made. Keeping in mind that this was Brood War mechanics, there is no doubt in my mind that even if fOrGG's past his peak, he'll have no trouble macroing when he wants to or has to.
Then the metagame thing. The problem is that "cheese and timing pushes" are designed to mess with standard play, and the guy with a reputation can make that work both ways – or at least count on a continual coinflip. If the opponent plays standard, he can BO lose a game (which fOrGG's mechanics won't then throw away) to a timing attack... or he can be on an even footing if the "cheesy" guy opens standard too. If the opponent plays safe, the options are a little more complicated, but while he may refute a blind cheese, he'll be behind in macro (or theoretically should be by the greedy > standard > safe > greedy RPS) if the "cheesy" guy plays standard. Which is why, e.g., people would still open up standard, with only a little extra scouting, against rookie-cheesy-Horang2.
Which is to say, assuming fOrGG stays with his rep of relying on timing attacks and stuff, he may never be able to sustain repeated championship runs (unless he truly is mechanically better than everybody, which I doubt now and certainly will not continue to be the case), but he'll still be very good.
tl;dr: being a "cheesy" player isn't a disadvantage if you're cheesy because you want to be, not because you have to be (compare Flash's "lol I push your third and you lose" timing-based TvZ from last year). I realize I'm basing argument in BW because I know it better, but I think this is a principle that carries over.
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On December 07 2011 09:08 Marconos wrote:
I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen. What rose colored glasses? Every single GSL game he's played so far has consisted of him horribly outplaying his opponents from start to finish. This guy beat Jaedong is a Bo5 in an MSL finals, how ridiculously delusional would you have to be to think he's going to hit a brick wall just because some SC2 guys analyze his play? Why do you assume he won't adapt and that he can only play a single style? Every aspect of his game has been impeccable. It's not his fault if he's outclassing his opponents so badly that they can't even successfully fend off his harass and play a proper late-game oriented macro game. None of his game have been all-ins.
Don't accuse others of looking through rose tinted glasses when you're the one who's unfairly undermining some absolutely fantastic play just because it further legitimizes the points made in this article and shows that BW A-teamers are on a whole different level compared to your average SC2 progamer.
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Now I certainly havent followed all the replies in this thread, or in fact any. But I hope that when and if the top tier BW pros switch over to SC2 that they are better than everyone and begin to blow everyone out of the water.
I never followed BW and now that I am used to the shininess of SC2 I would find it difficult to get into BW no matter how much more exciting it possibly is, but if the BW pros are crushing the lkes of MVP and nestea (if he gets out of the current 'slump') then it will at the very least provide higher skilled games between new (sc2) faces, and could cause the current much loved pros to step up their game, or cause great shifts in strats and just do fantastic new things for us all.
Now thats all I have to say thanks
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I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
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On December 08 2011 03:31 GunPaladin wrote:
I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
Not even close, the brood war scene is a lot more established, and most if not all of the top players have salaries that are far higher than those of the best SC2 players (flash makes something like $200k per year not including prize money). Brood War teams are (even after the recent sponsorship issues with MBC/WMF/hwaseung) much more stable than anything SC2 has (just look at the sponsors), so it's fairly risky to switch to a game you don't have any experience in, since even if you do really well and join a team, it could suddenly evaporate.
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On December 08 2011 03:31 GunPaladin wrote:
I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
Starcraft has been out for over a decade, SC2 has been out for a year and a half. The majority of the professional players in S Korea still play Broodwar, and it can be argued that all of the best professional players still play Broodwar.
Broodwar players do make more than SC2 players. Concerning the top pros, much much more. As the article states, that's why top-tiered players are transferring to SC2. They are dominating the game they play and making tons of money, why change?
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On December 08 2011 03:31 GunPaladin wrote:
I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
Yes BW is more popular in Korea. The money is why they dont want to move to SC2. Of course those who dont make as much money in BW will eventually move over. IMO I enjoy BW more when watching/playing but it just sucks because i dont understand korean and wish there was a english commentator for these big league like proleague, osl, and msl.
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On December 08 2011 03:31 GunPaladin wrote:
I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
There is quite a gap between the salaries of the high end BW Pro's in comparison to the SC2 professionals I think the super stars like Flash Jaedong have around 200k annual salaries, although my facts could be out-dated as not much data has been released in terms of Sc2 salaries I think EG pay quite big sums of money for their top players like when they bought HuK off TL but I'm gonna guess it's quite a fair amount below BW Super-star salaries
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guys ^^
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On December 08 2011 03:31 GunPaladin wrote:
I'm about a month into this whole Starcraft thing so excuse my noobish questions. I was under the assumption that the majority of professional play in Korea was centered around SC2; is this not the case? Do broodwar players as a whole make more than SC2 players? Is there a reason they decided not to move to SC2?
It's not the case. Broodwar progaming has been around for a decade in Korea, and six-figure salaries are the norm for top players. Unless conditions have changed drastically, there's a lot more money and fame in Broodwar in Korea than there is in SC2. Until recently, Broodwar was aired on two television channels, though now I believe it's just one.
Unsurprisingly, the highly-paid and highly-successful stars have stuck with Broodwar, whereas B-teamers (who aren't good enough to play on television), low-tier A-teamers, and practice partners are the players who generally switched... and the SC2 champions are drawn almost exclusively from that pool.
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Thanks for the info guys, so what were the reasons for the organizations and players who did switch? According to Liquipedia, Boxer was a very dominant figure in broodwar.
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On December 07 2011 09:08 Marconos wrote:
I like all teh ForGG/Fin fanboyism. If you take off the rose colored glasses and actually watch what he doing it's not really all that great. He is doing quick cheese and timing pushes that have pretty much gone out of the scene. He'll hit a brick wall as soon as the other players analyze his play and go "oh is that it" and properly prepare for the matchup.
He's a solid player but nothing special from what I have seen.
u actually have no fucking idea how sc2 (or bw) works sir
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EPT
