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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On December 07 2011 09:18 rasers wrote: show me the cheese games :D but since u are a SC2 playe.r everytime u attack before 20 minutes its a cheese right?. hahahahahaha it's so true | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:45 GunPaladin wrote: Thanks for the info guys, so what were the reasons for the organizations and players who did switch? According to Liquipedia, Boxer was a very dominant figure in broodwar. Boxer was a dominant figure in early Broodwar. He last made it to the finals of a Starleague in 2005. By the time I started watching in 2008, he wasn't good enough to compete in televised matches except as fan service. (Not because his skills had deteriorated -- they're better than they ever were! -- but because the level of pro play had passed him and left him behind.) He was officially a player-coach on SKT1, serving primarily to help other players improve and shine. Boxer/Nada/July are legends. But from the perspective of player skills, they were B-teamers when they switched to SC2. It's not surprising that players like MVP and MC surpassed them in SC2; they had already surpassed them in current skill in Broodwar. | ||
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
MVP is(was) the best SC1 progamer to make the switch. Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? What we should expect is a re-randomization of skill imo, because the game plays a bit differently and you may need a different mentality in order to play the game as compared to SC1. So we will be surprised who the best players are from the current BW scene. Also to note is that in Europe we have a lot of WarCraft3 players dominating, not quite the old SC1 players. This I believe supports the re-randomization of skill I mentioned above. Now, no post is good without a little bit of speculation, and trolling really, so I will talk about my expectations from the players switching over. Fantasy and Leta will do well with Terran. Flash will do not, probably should play Protoss, but he will most likely stay loyal to his Terran and be frustrated. Jaedong will hate Zerg, should also play Terran imo. None of the Protosses will make it big. With any race. This has nothing to do with any percieved imbalance of the races, but it takes a lot of brains to play this race and they are too far behind the metagame to get good enough fast enough, and imo there is only one truly brilliant(as in smart) Korean player and that is Flash. | ||
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Ravomat
Germany423 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote: Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? He was mainly a 2v2 player, he wasn't supposed to be good at 1v1. I think he got through the qualifiers to an MSL or something anyway as a 2v2 player just before he switched to SC2. So I wouldn't call him 'gawdawful'. Get your research right before calling someone a scrub. Idra talked about it on state of the game half a year ago. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote: Now, no post is good without a little bit of speculation, and trolling really, so I will talk about my expectations from the players switching over. Fantasy and Leta will do well with Terran. Flash will do not, probably should play Protoss, but he will most likely stay loyal to his Terran and be frustrated. Jaedong will hate Zerg, should also play Terran imo. None of the Protosses will make it big. With any race. This has nothing to do with any percieved imbalance of the races, but it takes a lot of brains to play this race and they are too far behind the metagame to get good enough fast enough, and imo there is only one truly brilliant(as in smart) Korean player and that is Flash. Very nonsensical conclusions. You can only be behind a metagame if you were once acquainted with said metagame. This happened to Nestea back in BroodWar: after he returned from military service, everything had changed and he was too far behind to adapt. Nothing about the current metagame will mean much since the BW progamers will dominate simply in terms of mechanics and macro. And in terms of analyzing trends and figuring out weaknesses they far outstrip our current pros. Really, Jaedong is not smart? Bisu is not smart? Leta is not smart? Light is not smart? I guess this does qualify as a troll post.  | ||
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:12 Ravomat wrote: He was mainly a 2v2 player, he wasn't supposed to be good at 1v1. I think he got through the qualifiers to an MSL or something anyway as a 2v2 player just before he switched to SC2. So I wouldn't call him 'gawdawful'. Get your research right before calling someone a scrub. Idra talked about it on state of the game half a year ago. With all due respect, Idra was god-awful at BW as well, compared to the Koreans. | ||
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:21 Shiori wrote: With all due respect, Idra was god-awful at BW as well, compared to the Koreans. ...... you didn't even respond properly lol... talk about mis reading man. That's basically saying he's talented to have made it there when just playing 2v2 displaying his potential. | ||
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HardMacro
Canada361 Posts
On December 01 2011 12:12 Chamenas wrote: Did you even read my posts? Or just that one line? So long as there is a pool of players of equatable skill level, then you can have exciting, competitive matches from a field of players. The better that pool of players are, the better the games are, though the curve begins to even out as skill increases, such that higher levels of skill don't produce a linear increase in excitement of games in comparison to the difference from, say, bronze to silver, or gold to platinum. So, while seeing the better players is definitely important, it becomes less important as you go along. And then we have the "Football" example I mentioned, where, no one really gets very excited to see the best team play the worst team. Similarly, if the best team is THAT much better than the next best team, such a game, which is, in theory, between the "best of the best" is also undesirable, simply because of the magnitude of the skill difference between the two. This suggests that raw skill level is certainly not the sole determiner of game excitement, something else is as well: the relative skill level between the two opponents. The more similar their skill level, the more exciting the games. We've already seen this in SC2. What this means is that the current crop of players, though potentially far worse than Flash's SC2 "equivalent" are still producing a desirable amount of real competition, and that competition is probably better for some (I would argue most) than watching a Flash-like player dominate the scene and win everything. If the next best was nowhere close to the best then competition would slide, and, as a result, it would be a much less interesting scene to watch and the eSport would fade into ruin. Just want to point out that we're going back to the only watching the "best of the best" argument again. Nobody watches high school basketball, some people watch the NCAA and a lot more people watch the NBA. And I don't know if you actually believe in what you wrote, but I have to strongly disagree with you that games between 2 equally skilled opponents produce a linear increase in the quality of the games as you move up from bronze to GM. For a esport still in its infancy, there simply aren't enough viewers to support lower-tier leagues; personally I don't even watch MLG or NASL, simply because the GSL fields the most number of top players and that's all the time I have for. | ||
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Helios.Star
United States548 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote: I haven't read this thread at all so maybe someone else has posted the same argument. MVP is(was) the best SC1 progamer to make the switch. Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? What we should expect is a re-randomization of skill imo, because the game plays a bit differently and you may need a different mentality in order to play the game as compared to SC1. So we will be surprised who the best players are from the current BW scene. Also to note is that in Europe we have a lot of WarCraft3 players dominating, not quite the old SC1 players. This I believe supports the re-randomization of skill I mentioned above. I agree, and I like the term "re-randomization of skill". There will be some top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others will fall off the map. And even though it bothers me sometimes to see people say this, the game is still very young with two expansions yet to be released. Some units will fit players style of play better than others, and it will feel like a completely different game. I also think we will see some of the current SC2 pros catch up to the BW pros as the years go if SC2 teams adopt the BW practice style. I think one reason forgg is so successful is because he found a team with a regimented practice schedule like ogs has. Right now we see SC2 pros leaving teams because the practice schedule is too demanding, and players like that wont be around for much longer. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote: I haven't read this thread at all so maybe someone else has posted the same argument. MVP is(was) the best SC1 progamer to make the switch. Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? What we should expect is a re-randomization of skill imo, because the game plays a bit differently and you may need a different mentality in order to play the game as compared to SC1. So we will be surprised who the best players are from the current BW scene. Also to note is that in Europe we have a lot of WarCraft3 players dominating, not quite the old SC1 players. This I believe supports the re-randomization of skill I mentioned above. Now, no post is good without a little bit of speculation, and trolling really, so I will talk about my expectations from the players switching over. Fantasy and Leta will do well with Terran. Flash will do not, probably should play Protoss, but he will most likely stay loyal to his Terran and be frustrated. Jaedong will hate Zerg, should also play Terran imo. None of the Protosses will make it big. With any race. This has nothing to do with any percieved imbalance of the races, but it takes a lot of brains to play this race and they are too far behind the metagame to get good enough fast enough, and imo there is only one truly brilliant(as in smart) Korean player and that is Flash. Okay, the game doesn't take that much intelligence to play, nor does BW. No doubt you have to be strategically smart but I personally feel your overemphasizing that too much. Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance. Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well. Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game. And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros. He is even faster than this now. | ||
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Leifish
851 Posts
Woo! | ||
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HardMacro
Canada361 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:41 Helios.Star wrote: I agree, and I like the term "re-randomization of skill". There will be some top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others will fall off the map. And even though it bothers me sometimes to see people say this, the game is still very young with two expansions yet to be released. Some units will fit players style of play better than others, and it will feel like a completely different game. I also think we will see some of the current SC2 pros catch up to the BW pros as the years go if SC2 teams adopt the BW practice style. I think one reason forgg is so successful is because he found a team with a regimented practice schedule like ogs has. Right now we see SC2 pros leaving teams because the practice schedule is too demanding, and players like that wont be around for much longer. Sigh, so your belief still contradicts current evidence? Even after it's been posted 2621412 times in the thread already? ALL relevant ex-BW pros to have switched over(meaning they were at least close to A-class status at the time of switch) have done VERY WELL in SC2, including MC, Puma, MvP, Ganzi, etc. Even old school legends (B-teamers at their time of switch) have had decent results, with July's GSL final appearance and Nada's high finishes. Name ONE A-teamer from BW to switch, who has had ~1 year to catch-up and practice, that is doing poorly and "falling off the map". That's right, you can't because such a person doesn't exist; all ex-BW pros that have switched have done well, so why do you insist on predicting against this trend? I hope you understand that the vast majority of BW fans do not think of BW pros as deities with superhuman powers worthy of worship (although a few do), but rather it's the 12+ hours/day practice HABIT, the years of mechanics refinement, the skills developed in a team setting at creating/defeating/analyzing builds, and the natural very high talent pool of RTS players from BW teams that enables us to REASONABLY assume with confidence that BW pros will dominate in SC2, somewhat confirmed by the current success MvP/Puma/etc. Regarding the practice regime, judging from my knowledge of the BW progaming houses, I'd say ForGG probably practices more by himself than the oGs required practice schedule. There will be some (implying <50%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others (implying >50%) will fall off the map. VS "There will be many (~90%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and a few others (~10%) will fall off the map due to age." I'm willing to bet anyone good money on this. Any takers? No? That's what I thought. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote: Okay, the game doesn't take that much intelligence to play, nor does BW. No doubt you have to be strategically smart but I personally feel your overemphasizing that too much. Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance. Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well. Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game. And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros. He is even faster than this now. I wasn't going to hate on you since you posted a Bisu VoD, but seriously -.- Someone has mentioned before, it's a complete fallacy when some people tear "mechanics" and "strategic ability" apart from each other. MOST of the time, a player that trump you at "mechanics" also are that much better at reading the game, and making strategic decision.. And yes it takes a TON of brain to play these kind of games when u actually play seriously (SC2 ladder is not serious, btw), just look how much they sweat during long tense games. I may be ignorant, but i can't see how theres more strategic depth to SC2 compared to SC:BW as some people here claim. | ||
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IMlemon
Lithuania296 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote: Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance. Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well. Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game. And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros. He is even faster than this now. Actually the part about bisu being bad at creating builds and stuff, it seems to be a mistranslation from an older interview. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242133. ...Bisu is someone who is very good at managing improvisation while I follow the build order from start to finish. Coach Kwon once suggested to Bisu about following a build order after the beginning of the game and they both talked about it so perhaps that story might have been interpreted differently as such... OH SNAP. Let's lynch the guy who spread these false rumors about bisu. | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote: Okay, the game doesn't take that much intelligence to play, nor does BW. No doubt you have to be strategically smart but I personally feel your overemphasizing that too much. Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance. Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well. Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game. And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros. He is even faster than this now. Why does every sc1/sc2 argument always have a youtube link of a sc1 god playing? are they the only ones that are able to produce good broodwar games? I never see links to the middle of the road sc1 pro players. Every argument is " look at what only 5 or so players in the entirety of sc1 can pull off, why cant you do that in sc2 hmm?" | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:07 OrangeSoda wrote: Why does every sc1/sc2 argument always have a youtube link of a sc1 god playing? are they the only ones that are able to produce good broodwar games? I never see links to the middle of the road sc1 pro players. Every argument is " look at what only 5 or so players in the entirety of sc1 can pull off, why cant you do that in sc2 hmm?" If you're attempting to prove a point, when given the choice between the best possible example, or a good example that isn't quite the best, which one would you choose? It makes perfect sense to use Jaedong/Bisu/Flash over some of the other A-Team BW players currently | ||
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Helios.Star
United States548 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:00 HardMacro wrote: Sigh, so your belief still contradicts current evidence? Even after it's been posted 2621412 times in the thread already? ALL relevant ex-BW pros to have switched over(meaning they were at least close to A-class status at the time of switch) have done VERY WELL in SC2, including MC, Puma, MvP, Ganzi, etc. Even old school legends (B-teamers at their time of switch) have had decent results, with July's GSL final appearance and Nada's high finishes. Name ONE A-teamer from BW to switch, who has had ~1 year to catch-up and practice, that is doing poorly and "falling off the map". That's right, you can't because such a person doesn't exist; all ex-BW pros that have switched have done well, so why do you insist on predicting against this trend? I hope you understand that the vast majority of BW fans do not think of BW pros as deities with superhuman powers worthy of worship (although a few do), but rather it's the 12+ hours/day practice HABIT, the years of mechanics refinement, the skills developed in a team setting at creating/defeating/analyzing builds, and the natural very high talent pool of RTS players from BW teams that enables us to REASONABLY assume with confidence that BW pros will dominate in SC2, somewhat confirmed by the current success MvP/Puma/etc. Regarding the practice regime, judging from my knowledge of the BW progaming houses, I'd say ForGG probably practices more by himself than the oGs required practice schedule. There will be some (implying <50%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others (implying >50%) will fall off the map. VS "There will be many (~90%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and a few others (~10%) will fall off the map due to age." I'm willing to bet anyone good money on this. Any takers? No? That's what I thought. I never said they were "falling off the map", i said they WILL, which means in the future when current BW pros make the switch, but you were so upset with my post you read what you wanted to. I also never specifically mentioned A team BW players, you did. You honestly think EVERY BW player is going to be amazing? You talk like BW players are all tearing it up in code S when in reality there have been a few that have been knocked out of not only code S, but code A as well. I dont know where you got that I implied that more BW players than not will fall off the map, once again you read what you wanted to. Some is not equal to less than 50%, and others does not mean more than 50%, where did you even get that? I stated that BW players have superior mechanics to almost every SC2 player currently partially because of how much they practice, then you go on to talk about how Im wrong because BW players have superior mechanics and will be successful at SC2 because of how much they practice. Did you read where I said SC2 players will catch up mechanically after a few years if they practice like BW pros? Probably not. | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:29 m3rciless wrote: God BW. I wish we were all just playing BW still. I love sc2, but BW was sick sick sick good. It took the better part of a decade to get there though. Once we "figure out" SC2, it will probably be better than BW. I'm SO excited to see how Starcraft 2 evolves once Legacy of the Void has come and the game is "complete." | ||
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