The Elephant in the Room - Page 196

On December 07 2011 09:18 rasers wrote:

show me the cheese games :D but since u are a SC2 playe.r everytime u attack before 20 minutes its a cheese right?.

On December 08 2011 03:45 GunPaladin wrote:
Thanks for the info guys, so what were the reasons for the organizations and players who did switch? According to Liquipedia, Boxer was a very dominant figure in broodwar.

On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote:
Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play?

On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote:
Now, no post is good without a little bit of speculation, and trolling really, so I will talk about my expectations from the players switching over. Fantasy and Leta will do well with Terran. Flash will do not, probably should play Protoss, but he will most likely stay loyal to his Terran and be frustrated. Jaedong will hate Zerg, should also play Terran imo. None of the Protosses will make it big. With any race. This has nothing to do with any percieved imbalance of the races, but it takes a lot of brains to play this race and they are too far behind the metagame to get good enough fast enough, and imo there is only one truly brilliant(as in smart) Korean player and that is Flash.

On December 08 2011 04:12 Ravomat wrote:


He was mainly a 2v2 player, he wasn't supposed to be good at 1v1. I think he got through the qualifiers to an MSL or something anyway as a 2v2 player just before he switched to SC2. So I wouldn't call him 'gawdawful'. Get your research right before calling someone a scrub. Idra talked about it on state of the game half a year ago.

On December 08 2011 04:21 Shiori wrote:

With all due respect, Idra was god-awful at BW as well, compared to the Koreans.

On December 01 2011 12:12 Chamenas wrote:


Did you even read my posts? Or just that one line?

So long as there is a pool of players of equatable skill level, then you can have exciting, competitive matches from a field of players. The better that pool of players are, the better the games are, though the curve begins to even out as skill increases, such that higher levels of skill don't produce a linear increase in excitement of games in comparison to the difference from, say, bronze to silver, or gold to platinum. So, while seeing the better players is definitely important, it becomes less important as you go along.

And then we have the "Football" example I mentioned, where, no one really gets very excited to see the best team play the worst team. Similarly, if the best team is THAT much better than the next best team, such a game, which is, in theory, between the "best of the best" is also undesirable, simply because of the magnitude of the skill difference between the two. This suggests that raw skill level is certainly not the sole determiner of game excitement, something else is as well: the relative skill level between the two opponents. The more similar their skill level, the more exciting the games. We've already seen this in SC2.

What this means is that the current crop of players, though potentially far worse than Flash's SC2 "equivalent" are still producing a desirable amount of real competition, and that competition is probably better for some (I would argue most) than watching a Flash-like player dominate the scene and win everything. If the next best was nowhere close to the best then competition would slide, and, as a result, it would be a much less interesting scene to watch and the eSport would fade into ruin.

On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote:
I haven't read this thread at all so maybe someone else has posted the same argument.
MVP is(was) the best SC1 progamer to make the switch. Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? What we should expect is a re-randomization of skill imo, because the game plays a bit differently and you may need a different mentality in order to play the game as compared to SC1. So we will be surprised who the best players are from the current BW scene.
Also to note is that in Europe we have a lot of WarCraft3 players dominating, not quite the old SC1 players. This I believe supports the re-randomization of skill I mentioned above.

Now, no post is good without a little bit of speculation, and trolling really, so I will talk about my expectations from the players switching over. Fantasy and Leta will do well with Terran. Flash will do not, probably should play Protoss, but he will most likely stay loyal to his Terran and be frustrated. Jaedong will hate Zerg, should also play Terran imo. None of the Protosses will make it big. With any race. This has nothing to do with any percieved imbalance of the races, but it takes a lot of brains to play this race and they are too far behind the metagame to get good enough fast enough, and imo there is only one truly brilliant(as in smart) Korean player and that is Flash.

On December 08 2011 04:41 Helios.Star wrote:


I agree, and I like the term "re-randomization of skill". There will be some top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others will fall off the map. And even though it bothers me sometimes to see people say this, the game is still very young with two expansions yet to be released. Some units will fit players style of play better than others, and it will feel like a completely different game. I also think we will see some of the current SC2 pros catch up to the BW pros as the years go if SC2 teams adopt the BW practice style. I think one reason forgg is so successful is because he found a team with a regimented practice schedule like ogs has. Right now we see SC2 pros leaving teams because the practice schedule is too demanding, and players like that wont be around for much longer.

On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote:


Okay, the game doesn't take that much intelligence to play, nor does BW. No doubt you have to be strategically smart but I personally feel your overemphasizing that too much.

Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance.

Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well.

Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game.

And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros.



He is even faster than this now.

On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote:


Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance.

Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well.

Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game.

And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros.



He is even faster than this now.

...Bisu is someone who is very good at managing improvisation while I follow the build order from start to finish. Coach Kwon once suggested to Bisu about following a build order after the beginning of the game and they both talked about it so perhaps that story might have been interpreted differently as such...

On December 08 2011 04:47 L_Master wrote:


Okay, the game doesn't take that much intelligence to play, nor does BW. No doubt you have to be strategically smart but I personally feel your overemphasizing that too much.

Secondly, in regards to Bisu, he is not known for being good at creating his own builds and strategies. However, Bisu is arguably the best (possible exception of Flash) at taking discovered builds and refining them to perfection. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE, but he is the one who pioneered it and learned to make it effective and the one who has recently re-refined it with a heavier emphasis on corsair usage and air dominance.

Moreover, BW requires the same level of creativity/thinking/intelligence as SC2. If you don't have those there is no way in heck you will make it as a pro. If you can make it in BW, there is no reason to think a player doesn't have the intelligence/brilliance to be successful in SC2 as well.

Also, when you have players with the mechanics, multitasking, and control of someone like a Bisu, JD, or FlaSh they are going to be solid top tier players JUST because of that, even if they are only comparatively mediocre at understanding the game.

And yes, Bisu's multitasking/micro/macro are THAT much better than any sc2 player currently playing. Heck, they are significantly better than most BW pros.



He is even faster than this now.

On December 08 2011 05:07 OrangeSoda wrote:


Why does every sc1/sc2 argument always have a youtube link of a sc1 god playing? are they the only ones that are able to produce good broodwar games? I never see links to the middle of the road sc1 pro players. Every argument is " look at what only 5 or so players in the entirety of sc1 can pull off, why cant you do that in sc2 hmm?"

On December 08 2011 05:29 m3rciless wrote:
God BW. I wish we were all just playing BW still. I love sc2, but BW was sick sick sick good.