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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
The fact is that because of the volatility of SC2, combined with the emphasis on game sense and decision-making, it's likely that BW players will take longer than expected to reach the top tier of SC2. Btw it's a shame this crap OP was resurrected. These arguments are so tired it has become pointless. | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:50 Doodsmack wrote: Good to see BW elitists already have their excuses ready for when their top players come to SC2 and don't have the dominant performance they predicted. Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
bw pros will obviously have an advantage, they've been playing a game that's a fair bit harder for a decade. coming to a game that's easier mechanically but mostly different in terms of how you think/strategy is the only hard part.... and that's also fairly easy to pick up. if you take someone who has never played an rts before vs a guy thats been playing sc1 8 hours a day for half a decade... well... come on now. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
How long until a progamer from BW switches until we determine that progamers aren't defined by their BW skill? So to elaborate, what I mean is that MVP, one of the most successful SC2 players, is still linked to his decent / average BW career. Most players fall into this boat because really we've only got less than 2 years of play in SC2 for all players which is often far less time than they've spent in BW. So the question is, if BW lasts say 2 years, and MVP beats a strong recent BW switch (let's say any of the current top 30), will people still say "Well MVP was ok in BW"? What about 3 years? 5 years? etc? When does the elephant in the room become a pointless arguement and we just rate players for the game they play not the game they hypothetically can play? This could also be seen as: At what point does SC2 build enough complexity and refinement that BW players will need to take a decent amount of time to adapt? If there's no time limit then the concept will continue to mystify me, since it will continue to rate players like MC, for example, as a poor progamer regardless of his SC2 results until the top BW players move on. (As an addendum, because some BW fan won't like me asking questions, yes the BW elite are probably better than the SC2 elite currently. When does the SC2 elite get a chance to be elite on their own merits though? Or does it never happen?) | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:48 bittman wrote: (As an addendum, because some BW fan won't like me asking questions, yes the BW elite are probably better than the SC2 elite currently. When does the SC2 elite get a chance to be elite on their own merits though? Or does it never happen?) when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:51 rauk wrote: when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc what about MVP who was on his way up in BW when he switched over? I mean yeah obviously that's not the same as flash or jaedong switching, but in reality I'm not sure we'll see them switch over for a long time if ever. | ||
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Bd.Snake
Australia163 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:51 rauk wrote: when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc I thought MC vanished or something? | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:51 rauk wrote: when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc In other words, never, because the top guys from Brood War will never quit at their prime. | ||
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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:21 Let it Raine wrote: i dont even see how there's an argument bw pros will obviously have an advantage, they've been playing a game that's a fair bit harder for a decade. coming to a game that's easier mechanically but mostly different in terms of how you think/strategy is the only hard part.... and that's also fairly easy to pick up. if you take someone who has never played an rts before vs a guy thats been playing sc1 8 hours a day for half a decade... well... come on now. This this this and once again very much this! I don't see how ppl are so blind about it haha... | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
At what point does SC2 build enough complexity and refinement that BW players will need to take a decent amount of time to adapt? This aint coming for a long time yet, HotS is gonna set everything back to step 1 again in terms of balance, and the game is gonna be very easy to lose at again | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:51 rauk wrote: when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc He never "had" anything his career was 1-9 lol | ||
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Bd.Snake
Australia163 Posts
On December 08 2011 16:05 wassbix wrote: He never "had" anything his career was 1-9 lol That never was is rolling in the dosh while a few assholes on a forum say he was bad in a diffrent game intresting how the world works | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:19 YMCApylons wrote: Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. How do you figure that Polt, MKP, July, TOP, and NaDa are top 10 code S when they aren't even Code S right now? | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:51 rauk wrote: when the top players aren't has-beens from broodwar like mc has-beens are BoXeR, Nada, July MC, Nestea were nobody. MVP was an A-teamer, but he was a Woongjin Terran. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:19 YMCApylons wrote: Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. Polt was a WC3 player I believe, and he got trounced by Forgg (the only other real BW A-teamer besides MVP and Hyun to make the switch) who has only started practicing/competing at a professional level 2 months ago. I believe even Jjakji and Leenock were high level amateur BW players (someone posted a couple of links in this thread or the Forgg thread). Yeah, I don't see us having to make any excuses for anything any time soon. All we see is BW pros proving over and over again something that many SC2 fans just refuse to acknowledge by using arguments that have no basis in reality. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
On December 08 2011 15:48 bittman wrote: Interesting question for a thread full of bias: How long until a progamer from BW switches until we determine that progamers aren't defined by their BW skill? If Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork transition and they are mediocre I think we can agree that BW background does not matter. | ||
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LanZ
35 Posts
What if it was back to Machine shop, covert labs, physics lab, control tower, etc etc? Then the scouting overlord/observer would get at the least more information? With the fast switch from a techlab barracks to a techlab factory makes them seem like they have zerg's fast tech switch. Well, this is just my opinion. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Icky
Denmark95 Posts
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On December 08 2011 16:12 ffreakk wrote: MVP was an A-teamer, but he was a Woongjin Terran. People won't ever know what you mean but yeah. Mvp was one of the laughing stocks of proleague with his biggest achievement being the game he took off Flash at OSL Semis. | ||
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