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Do people don't understand that BW is a RTS game, ofcourse that experience will help you in SC2 since it's also an RTS game. What's this fucking theory about every BW pro becoming some god when he plays BW which will make him unbeatable in SC2?
They have the experience (of being a progamer) from BW.
They have the mechanics from BW.
They have the work ethic from BW.
They have the mindset from BW.
If they put the same amount of energy on SC2 as they did on BW, yes then they will most likely become top players indeed, I don't see what's so hard to see about this?
If you spent 12 hours a game on the previous game in the series for 8 years, then yeah NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK you'll be good at the next game in the series...
so much fucking bias thinking BW players are gods or some shit, jesus...
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On December 08 2011 16:32 sereniity wrote:
Do people don't understand that BW is a RTS game, ofcourse that experience will help you in SC2 since it's also an RTS game. What's this fucking theory about every BW pro becoming some god when he plays BW which will make him unbeatable in SC2?
They have the experience (of being a progamer) from BW.
They have the mechanics from BW.
They have the work ethic from BW.
They have the mindset from BW.
If they put the same amount of energy on SC2 as they did on BW, yes then they will most likely become top players indeed, I don't see what's so hard to see about this?
If you spent 12 hours a game on the previous game in the series for 8 years, then yeah NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK you'll be good at the next game in the series...
so much fucking bias thinking BW players are gods or some shit, jesus...
The OP is saying that because BW players that are doing really well in SC2 weren't even that good in BW, then if top players like Flash Jaedong Stork Bisu move over to SC2, they will most likely dominate even harder than the good ones now like Nestea MVP MC (at least, these were like the 3 best a bit back).
Because of this assumption, the OP's point of the article is that the level of play we are seeing in SC2 right now is quite low. The article seems to view this quite negatively but really you can see it as a good thing; in the future (like jjakji vs leenock finals we just saw) SC2 will be even BETTER to watch because the players will be significantly better.
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On December 08 2011 16:32 sereniity wrote:
so much fucking bias thinking BW players are gods or some shit, jesus...
But they are gods and shit and jesus and tebow and whatever else you want to say. They are the best RTS players in the world. Hence, it would stand to reason that even if they change to a different RTS, they would still be the best RTS players in the world.
It is correct that there should be many, many people in other countries that can be better players. But not every kid with incredible RTS potential become progamers. They may play games for fun, go to college, become white collared workers. The e-sport business ain't exactly the NBA when it comes to pay out. So most people with potential just do other stuff. But the most talented people who did actually become potential RTS players are currently playing Brood War in Korea.
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On December 08 2011 16:32 sereniity wrote:
Do people don't understand that BW is a RTS game, ofcourse that experience will help you in SC2 since it's also an RTS game. What's this fucking theory about every BW pro becoming some god when he plays BW which will make him unbeatable in SC2?
They have the experience (of being a progamer) from BW.
They have the mechanics from BW.
They have the work ethic from BW.
They have the mindset from BW.
If they put the same amount of energy on SC2 as they did on BW, yes then they will most likely become top players indeed, I don't see what's so hard to see about this?
If you spent 12 hours a game on the previous game in the series for 8 years, then yeah NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK you'll be good at the next game in the series...
so much fucking bias thinking BW players are gods or some shit, jesus...
You should really try playing BW before you make a blanket judgment about its mechanics, work ethic, and mindset. Here are the differences in control between the two games that I can think of atm:
1. Auto-mine. You do not have to tell your workers to mine in SC2 when they finish making. This is slightly made up by chronoboost, MULEs, and queens.
2. MBS. In SC2 you do not have to click (or hotkey-tap) each individual building to make units out of all of your production facilities. You simply press one or two hotkeys for gates/robos/starports/factories/hatches etc and you're done.
3. Infinite unit group. This allows for 1a victories instead of 1a2a3a4a5a victories.
4. SC2 has better hotkeys. None of this b->p to build a pylon, 4z5z6d to make zealots and dragoons, and then L to upgrade zealot legspeed.
5. Uphill advantage is gone.
6. When you build anything, the minerals are used when the command is issued, not when the building is actually placed. This is a lot bigger of a deal than you might think. Imagine you have 500 minerals and you want to expand. In BW, you tell a worker to go make an expo, and then you probably spend the other 100-200 minerals right away on units or another building. Don't go over though. If you do, and you're under 400 (or 300 for zerg) minerals when your worker gets there to make the expo, that building isn't going up. For weaker players this means losing games because a building that should have finished 5 minutes ago isn't there. In SC2 you simply issue the command and you're done worrying. This is also why players in BW "confirm" building placement as part of their macro cycle. (e.g. "did the pylon go down? yes. good.")
7. Minimal AI glitching in SC2.
All of these factors, when subtracted from the game as they are in SC2, allow super-pros from BW, such as ForGG, to play with godly multitask, macro and micro all at the same time. There are simply fewer things to do, so by increasing the number of things they do in the game (multi-attack, drops, super-micro every unit) they do become gods.
I don't mean to be rude, but you're simply wrong when you believe otherwise.
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On December 08 2011 15:48 bittman wrote:
Interesting question for a thread full of bias:
How long until a progamer from BW switches until we determine that progamers aren't defined by their BW skill?
So to elaborate, what I mean is that MVP, one of the most successful SC2 players, is still linked to his decent / average BW career. Most players fall into this boat because really we've only got less than 2 years of play in SC2 for all players which is often far less time than they've spent in BW.
So the question is, if BW lasts say 2 years, and MVP beats a strong recent BW switch (let's say any of the current top 30), will people still say "Well MVP was ok in BW"? What about 3 years? 5 years? etc?
When does the elephant in the room become a pointless arguement and we just rate players for the game they play not the game they hypothetically can play?
This could also be seen as: At what point does SC2 build enough complexity and refinement that BW players will need to take a decent amount of time to adapt?
If there's no time limit then the concept will continue to mystify me, since it will continue to rate players like MC, for example, as a poor progamer regardless of his SC2 results until the top BW players move on.
(As an addendum, because some BW fan won't like me asking questions, yes the BW elite are probably better than the SC2 elite currently. When does the SC2 elite get a chance to be elite on their own merits though? Or does it never happen?) A big reason why Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will continue to be seen as superior to someone like MVP (even if we disregard his mediocrity in BW) simply has to do with the skill being displayed in their respective games. Even if BW and SC2 are two different games, it is still possible to gauge the actual skill involved in both games and compare it across games. Simply put, the level of skill (and that includes everything from mechanics to decision-making and game sense) displayed by Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in BW is lightyears ahead compared to the level of skill displayed by MVP and Nestea in SC2. I can't comment on how good MVP is going to be 3 or 5 years from now but right now, he is nowhere near the level of any top tier BW pro. And when you see people calling someone like that a bonjwa at SC2, it becomes difficult to take the competition in SC2 as seriously as the competition in BW.
But here's the thing...even if we can somehow establish that guys like MVP were just developing back in their BW days and that it is only after their switch to SC2 that they started peaking as a progamer (I don't buy this personally because even the current top SC2 players had to work much harder during their BW days...I even think that their skills may have deteriorated after switching to SC2), the fact is that the current level of competition in SC2 just doesn't permit that kind of growth. MVP isn't going to become as good as Flash if there is no one to force him to raise his skill to that level. The most likely way that we'll ever see SC2 progamers playing at Flash or Jaedong level is if we see more top tier BW pros switching, thus forcing the rest of the competition to step up their games to be able to keep up with the top BW pros. Even within the next 6 months or so, I think we can see a big improvement in SC2 at the highest level thanks to Forgg and (possibly) Hyun.
But there are many other factors affecting the growth of SC2 (one is the game itself but I'm not going to get into that). Another issue with SC2 is that it suffers from quantity over quality. There are far too many tournaments making it so that you don't actually have to put the effort to compete at the highest level and can simply avoid tournaments like the GSL and just focus on lesser tournaments like Dreamhack and NASL (and then there are countless smaller tournaments) and still make a name for yourself and earn a lot of money (most top foreigners come to mind). In comparison, the BW professional environment simply had Proleague, OSL and MSL (3 per year unlike the 6 per year that we have with GSL, and now even the MSL is gone) and all the pros competed in each of those tournaments with the utmost dedication. You couldn't simply choose to avoid guys like Flash and Jaedong and just play against inferior competition. Every BW progamer has the responsibility to improve until they can compete at the highest level. SC2 needs to model itself after the BW progaming scene if it can hope to have BW level of competition. The most likely way that's going to happen is if and when Kespa and all the current BW teams switch to SC2.
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On December 08 2011 16:24 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 08 2011 14:19 YMCApylons wrote:On December 08 2011 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Good to see BW elitists already have their excuses ready for when their top players come to SC2 and don't have the dominant performance they predicted. Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. All we see is BW pros proving over and over again something that many SC2 fans just refuse to acknowledge by using arguments that have no basis in reality. Proving what, exactly? That you will be good in a successor to the game you've played professionally for 8 hours a day for the last 5-10 years? Whoa, you guys might be on to something! There are are a ton of SC2 people who didn't seem to get the memo because they constantly insist that saying that a top BW pro would dominate SC2 is the same as saying that Michael Jordan would dominate at chess, and that BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2.
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A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point.
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On December 08 2011 16:32 sereniity wrote:
so much fucking bias thinking BW players are gods or some shit, jesus...
Actually top BW pro players are not some shit... they are THE shit.. some may call them gods too. Fuck after watching a FPVOD of Jaedong you might as well think a god played the game, coz frankly, no mortal man can do that..
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On December 08 2011 16:18 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 15:48 bittman wrote:
Interesting question for a thread full of bias:
How long until a progamer from BW switches until we determine that progamers aren't defined by their BW skill?
If Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork transition and they are mediocre I think we can agree that BW background does not matter.
No, we can't. If Flash, JD, Bisu, and Stork are mediocre at SC2, it can be due to any number of reasons. It could be that they switch to SC2 when they're way past their prime (similar to Boxer, Nada, July). It could be that they barely practice the game (I can definitely see this happening with Stork) etc.
No one who has actually played BW seriously over a significant period of time thinks that their experience in BW was irrelevant in SC2. The general skills gained in BW are still transferable to SC2 because they're both very similar games. Saying that BW background has no practical use in SC2 is just flat out ignorant, regardless of how Flash, JD, Bisu, Stork do in SC2 because ultimately, they're just 4 people and we can't just reach such an absurd conclusion based on a tiny sample of 4 people.
Don't get the wrong idea though. I'm not trying to do premature damage control over the possibility that Flash/JD/Bisu will suck at SC2 (it's not gonna happen, trust me). I simply want to point out that you shouldn't have to require specific examples to recognize that being good at BW can certainly help you in SC2. It should be apparent from the very nature of the two games.
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Why was this such a controversial article? Even Artosis and Incontrol seem to imply that this article is trash when they bring it up on SOTG.
From what I'm seeing:
"I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn."
"Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when."
So in summary, both intrigue and Hot_Bid are saying that most BW pros would do well in SC2 but Jaedong and Flash would steamroll the competition. Hot_Bid goes as far as to say that players like Leta, Sea, Best, or Zero might not dominate.
That doesn't seem like a very controversial opinion. Especially to people who understand how much more difficult BW is and what these guys are capable of. Even with the lower skill ceiling and coin-flippy nature of SC2 players like Flash and Jaedong would undoubtedly be consistent champions.
Is it just because of the baiting nature of the statement, "the competition in SC2 has thus far been a farce"? Because that is just a hook and obviously just to get your attention. Because of the subjective nature of "competition" to each individual you can't just focus on something like that. The competition is not a farce since there are SC2 players genuinely trying their best to win and not throwing games, but to someone who is personally comparing the SC2 players' skill level with those who are still playing Brood War, to them the competition in SC2 being a farce is also a true statement.
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code S has actually been looking like a broodwar retirement home for a long time. a lot of them have previously had quite unremarkable progaming careers, so it may not be a well known fact. the experience is there nonetheless.
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On December 08 2011 17:44 DarkMatter_ wrote:
BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2.
Wait, do you even PLAY this game? SC2 is still demanding mechanically. Not as much as BW, but you have to click really fast. And we just scratching the surface of micro possibilities yet. Yeah, macro is easier, but macro is boring anyways, so its not a problem.
On December 08 2011 17:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point.
An elephant would be something everyone knows of, but shyly not talks about. What people refer to when they say "no shit!!" its the fact, that OP states trivialities, and theres nothing suprising in this.
The TL;DR of op would be something like this:
"The more you practice, the better you will get.
ps: also, SC2 sucks."
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On December 08 2011 17:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point.
Then the title is misused. The term elephant in the room refers to something that is clearly there but people avoid looking at or discussing, the potential for the top level Brood War pros to switch to SC2 and dominate the competition has been talked and debated about since the beta release.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:40 Darkong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point. Then the title is misused. The term elephant in the room refers to something that is clearly there but people avoid looking at or discussing, the potential for the top level Brood War pros to switch to SC2 and dominate the competition has been talked and debated about since the beta release.
Ok, so we agreed on BW pros being the best players in the world. And if Flash, JD and Bisu would switch over they would very likely dominate the game.
But that naturally leads to other questions. Mainly "Why aren't the BW Pros switching to the new game?" which is easily answered to be fair. Because the Korean market is not there (yet?).
So then the question comes "Why is there no market? Why is SC2 not taking over in Korea? Why do so many BW fans not want to see SC2?" There are two possible answers:
a) the game is not as exciting to watch and play as BW (and lacks 1995 LAN technology -_-) and thus less suited as an E-sport or
b) BW fans are stubborn traditionalists and just stick to what they have anyway
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On December 08 2011 19:55 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:44 DarkMatter_ wrote:
BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2. Wait, do you even PLAY this game? SC2 is still demanding mechanically. Not as much as BW, but you have to click really fast. And we just scratching the surface of micro possibilities yet. Yeah, macro is easier, but macro is boring anyways, so its not a problem. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point. An elephant would be something everyone knows of, but shyly not talks about. What people refer to when they say "no shit!!" its the fact, that OP states trivialities, and theres nothing suprising in this. The TL;DR of op would be something like this: "The more you practice, the better you will get. ps: also, SC2 sucks."
TL;DR
"Some players are untouchable like Boxer , Nada, Jaedong and Flash. Boxer and Nada already play SC2, not that great. So what till Jaedong and Flash join, they will be unstoppable" <- which to me just seems a retarded way to prove a point, but whatever...
What OP actually means is:
"I'm a little fangirl and you are all stupid, same as every pro right now,
ps: also, SC2 sucks"
Edit: The more I read it the more I hate it.
All he does in OP is state statistics, which is fine. Sadly those statistics are from a different game and do not help to prove his point at all (again comparing Nada to MC in SC2 and BW)
Then he says that players that were better in BW will do better in SC2, which he just proved wrong (as far as statistics go).
and for the argument that those are two different games he just says "I know that these are different games but Flash is so good he will destroy everyone."
WHAT KIND OF AN ARGUMENT IS THAT!?
"I know you don't believe me this without proof, so here is that proof: It just is that way, mmkay?"
Overall I think there is little doubt that a player who will train a lot more and propably with better set goals will become good faster than others. Even though "Jinro" who trains in Korea for a year and has shown nothing the past 8 months, congratz to him, says Flash could take a game off of MVP or MMA within a week of practice, I think that is just complete Bullshit.
Why would you think that a person who played something else for sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long and has THAT PARTICULAR GAME set soooooooooooooooooooo deep in his bones should just straight out do amazing!?
Maybe the reason why those hardcore gamers Struggle is that they have spend incredible amounts of time on BW.
Maybe they are sort of stuck in it and it takes a ton of effort to completely switch to SC2, if that is even possible.
OR MAYBE SC2 and SC1 need different "Skills" and someone who was brilliant in SC1 is decent in SC2 if he lacks the necessary skills, vice versa.
Either way, I have no idea, neither do you. So please don't state facts that are just bullshit pulled out of your ass.
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2011 19:55 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:44 DarkMatter_ wrote:
BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2. Wait, do you even PLAY this game? SC2 is still demanding mechanically. Not as much as BW, but you have to click really fast. And we just scratching the surface of micro possibilities yet. Yeah, macro is easier, but macro is boring anyways, so its not a problem. Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
A lot of people coming in here to say "yeah, no shit!" No shit no shit, it's called the elephant in the room for a reason. It's the whole god damn point. An elephant would be something everyone knows of, but shyly not talks about. What people refer to when they say "no shit!!" its the fact, that OP states trivialities, and theres nothing suprising in this. The TL;DR of op would be something like this: "The more you practice, the better you will get. ps: also, SC2 sucks."
Whether or not the term was used correctly, don't forget that there's a very large amount of people viewing these forums that probably don't know much about the history of BW. Also this article was written 4 months ago.
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Calling it a elephant when there's been endless posts about how BW is much harder, some even by mods, is kinda laughable to be honest.
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On December 08 2011 19:55 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:44 DarkMatter_ wrote:
BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2. Wait, do you even PLAY this game? SC2 is still demanding mechanically. Not as much as BW, but you have to click really fast. And we just scratching the surface of micro possibilities yet. Yeah, macro is easier, but macro is boring anyways, so its not a problem.
Read my post again (and this time, read the whole thing and not quote half a sentence out of context). I didn't say what you seem to think I'm saying.
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On December 08 2011 21:26 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 19:55 shinarit wrote:On December 08 2011 17:44 DarkMatter_ wrote:
BW is purely about mechanics whereas SC2 is all about strategy so BW pros won't actually do well in SC2. Wait, do you even PLAY this game? SC2 is still demanding mechanically. Not as much as BW, but you have to click really fast. And we just scratching the surface of micro possibilities yet. Yeah, macro is easier, but macro is boring anyways, so its not a problem. Read my post again (and this time, read the whole thing and not quote half a sentence out of context). I didn't say what you seem to think I'm saying.
I read your post. You try to say that BW to SC2 is something like basketball to chess. Which is a very stupid analogy, and very not true. With the same mechanic capabilities people would do more amazing stuff in SC2, so its equally demanding, just in other areas.
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