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They do not say "BW players won't be good", like you are rudely insinuating. They are saying, that it's not guaranteed that within 10 minutes of picking up SC2, they will easily have a 99% win rate against the best Code S players.
I don't think many people at all believe this. What most BW people do believe is that as result of the "developedness (10+ years)" of BW, the practice environment, and the general competitiveness of the scene the overall RTS skill of BW players is higher than SC2 players. Not a dig at SC2, pure SC2 players have had only a few years to be practicing there game and don't have the intense, mandated practice regime of the BW players.
Since the BW players have a higher level of RTS skill it is generally expected that given time with the game these skills will allow them to be excellent SC2 players (especially given how cleanly BW skills transfer to sc2). You can't tell me that being able to multitask in BW means you won't be able to multitask in sc2 or that having godly micro in BW won't translate.
Where the point of contention seems to be is just HOW much more skilled are current BW pros than SC2 pros, and how long will it take BW pros to adapt to the new game. There is obviously a tremendous amount of new stuff to be learned in switching games, though there is no doubt that there practice, experience, and general strategical RTS understanding willn greatly speed up the process.
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I think the main problem is that everyone wants the "other side" to be saying something that they aren't.
The majority of SC2 fans or defenders or whatever aren't saying that BW pros will not be a force to reckon with.
The majority of BW fans or defenders or whatever aren't saying that BW pros will win against everyone at all times because they are just so super gosu like that.
As long as both sides keep using strawmen arguments and not realizing that they are arguing their own perception of the other guy's argument, the discussion will continue and never reach an agreeable end.
That's my take on it, anyway...
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On December 09 2011 04:15 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 03:54 HardMacro wrote:On December 08 2011 16:24 Inori wrote:On December 08 2011 16:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 08 2011 14:19 YMCApylons wrote:On December 08 2011 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Good to see BW elitists already have their excuses ready for when their top players come to SC2 and don't have the dominant performance they predicted. Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. All we see is BW pros proving over and over again something that many SC2 fans just refuse to acknowledge by using arguments that have no basis in reality. Proving what, exactly? That you will be good in a successor to the game you've played professionally for 8 hours a day for the last 5-10 years? Whoa, you guys might be on to something! Yes, that's EXACTLY it. YET, a fair number of SC2 kids STILL try to argue otherwise.It's not you; it's the considerable amount of other SC2 kids that are screaming the games are too different, and that it's not certain top tier BW pros would become top tier SC2 pros. Calling people kids, good argument practice. They do not say "BW players won't be good", like you are rudely insinuating. They are saying, that it's not guaranteed that within 10 minutes of picking up SC2, they will easily have a 99% win rate against the best Code S players.This seems to be what BW players "actually think" 
No, not a SINGLE BW fan is saying BW pros are going to stomp everyone during their very first months of playing. Can you please stop with the terrible hyperbole? Keep the message of OP in mind, because that's what the whole argument is about; that the current level of competition in SC2 is low, and that the talent pool which would greatly increase the skill level of the current SC2 scene is still stuck playing BW.
And yes, I am blatantly stating, not insinuating, that they're saying "BW players won't be good", which is ridiculous, and a common ground we both thankfully agree upon. Are you saying it was just a single person's opinion that "BW players won't be good"?
Since I've followed this thread from start to beginning, I'm getting the impression that previously the "BW pro doubters", if you will, argued for the longest time that BW players would't achieve success, or aren't very likely to achieve success because the skill ceiling is different, that SC2 required more "strategy", etc. However, in the last 20 or so pages of this thread, the "BW pro doubters" are realizing that it's pretty much guaranteed that A/S class BW pros will become top tier players, so they're forced to bite the bullet and back up their position to, "but it's a question of the time required for BW pros to become top tier SC2 pros, if it takes 1 + year for them to become good in SC2 then it's nothing impressive". Please, can't you see how sad this is, continually trying to find excuses to downplay the inevitable achievements of BW pros? It will be a GOOD thing that the skill level in the scene increases.
I'll recap the gist of the OP again: the current level of competition in SC2 is low, and that the talent pool which would greatly increase the skill level of the current SC2 scene is still stuck playing BW. Now can we all agree on that? Good, then the OP is right, the BW supporters are right, and the "BW pro doubters" are wrong. End of story. Finito. Now stop arguing and let's all anticipate great things in the future.
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On December 09 2011 04:15 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 03:54 HardMacro wrote:On December 08 2011 16:24 Inori wrote:On December 08 2011 16:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 08 2011 14:19 YMCApylons wrote:On December 08 2011 13:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Good to see BW elitists already have their excuses ready for when their top players come to SC2 and don't have the dominant performance they predicted. Current Code S top ten: MVP, NesTea, MC, MMA, Polt, MKP, July, TOP, NaDa, Jjakji. All but Jjakji are former pro-BW. Sounds pretty dominant to me. And SC2 might be more luck-based, although it is too early to tell, as the meta-game is still changing very fast. A game that has less luck should see the best player winning more often, and BW has had stretches of truly dominant gameplay by certain players. SC2 doesn't have the history yet to make that judgement. All we see is BW pros proving over and over again something that many SC2 fans just refuse to acknowledge by using arguments that have no basis in reality. Proving what, exactly? That you will be good in a successor to the game you've played professionally for 8 hours a day for the last 5-10 years? Whoa, you guys might be on to something! Yes, that's EXACTLY it. YET, a fair number of SC2 kids STILL try to argue otherwise.It's not you; it's the considerable amount of other SC2 kids that are screaming the games are too different, and that it's not certain top tier BW pros would become top tier SC2 pros. Calling people kids, good argument practice. They do not say "BW players won't be good", like you are rudely insinuating. They are saying, that it's not guaranteed that within 10 minutes of picking up SC2, they will easily have a 99% win rate against the best Code S players. This seems to be what BW players "actually think"
i don't think they'd have a 99% win rate within 10 minutes of picking up the game. I don't know how long it will take them to get to the top, but i know they WILL get to the top.
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Do people still think the absolute best players in the most difficult, most competitive RTS game won't become the best over time in the successor to that game?
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I dont think anyone doubts that top BW pro's will be amongst the top SC2 players. But I think some people are unsure if they will blow the top sc2 players out of the water shortly after changing games. Personally I think they will do very well if they keep their dedication and strict training... But I must admit I am unsure if they will crush all competition. We see that most top sc2 players have professional BW or WC3 history. But take Naniwa for example... he wasnt big in WC3, but now he can compete with the very top in sc2... I actually think dedication is the most important factor in sc2. And the sc2 already have dedicated players that play as much as BW pro's (though I must admit that it seems that very few sc2 players have as structured training as the BW pro's).
When it comes to forgg I think he is a bad example of the elephant in the room. Didnt Jinro twitter that forgg has been playing sc2 for close to a year, and that he has been working hard on the game? He had like 4 accounts in the top 50-100 on the KR server before he joined oGs. We also need to see more games from him before we inflate him too much in my opinion. I think he looks damn good, and his style is fresh... But he is a guy that has been playing for a long time. He is absolutely not an example of BW pro's jumping over and immediately crushing faces. Just my opinion.
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On December 09 2011 04:41 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I dont think anyone doubts that top BW pro's will be amongst the top SC2 players. But I think some people are unsure if they will blow the top sc2 players out of the water shortly after changing games. Personally I think they will do very well if they keep their dedication and strict training... But I must admit I am unsure if they will crush all competition. We see that most top sc2 players have professional BW or WC3 history. But take Naniwa for example... he wasnt big in WC3, but now he can compete with the very top in sc2... I actually think dedication is the most important factor in sc2. And the sc2 already have dedicated players that play as much as BW pro's (though I must admit that it seems that very few sc2 players have as structured training as the BW pro's).
When it comes to forgg I think he is a bad example of the elephant in the room. Didnt Jinro twitter that forgg has been playing sc2 for close to a year, and that he has been working hard on the game? He had like 4 accounts in the top 50-100 on the KR server before he joined oGs. We also need to see more games from him before we inflate him too much in my opinion. I think he looks damn good, and his style is fresh... But he is a guy that has been playing for a long time. He is absolutely not an example of BW pro's jumping over and immediately crushing faces. Just my opinion.
They will NOT start playing for an hour and immediately beat someone like MVP. The macro is there, the micro may need some tweaking since the ai works differently, but the build orders will DEFINITELY need months to develop. Even someone like Flash cannot come over and simply beat everyone. He needs time to figure out the timings and little nuances of sc2. I'm not bothered by the fact that they won't immediately dominate, because they shouldn't/won't. But anyone who doubts they won't eventually become the best are naive.
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I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO.
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On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO.
They are not too old? Flash is what? 19 or 20? These guys are at the prime of their life. The reason they would be so good in sc2 is because their brains ARE wired for sc1. The same ideal mindset is there. That's not a disadvantage, it's in fact what makes them better than everyone else.
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I don't think you understood my point. They are not "too old" in the sense of physicality. They are perfectly fine in that area. They are too old in the sense that their brains are already wired for a specific game. Their brain is becoming close to being finished growing. They cannot learn new things as quickly or efficiently as younger players will be able to.
Like I said, their brains are wired for RTS... that allows them to succeed.
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On December 09 2011 05:01 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think you understood my point. They are not "too old" in the sense of physicality. They are perfectly fine in that area. They are too old in the sense that their brains are already wired for a specific game. Their brain is becoming close to being finished growing. They cannot learn new things as quickly or efficiently as younger players will be able to.
Like I said, their brains are wired for RTS... that allows them to succeed.
You're misunderstanding me too. You have to realize that that "wiring" they have for sc1, is EXACTLY what will make them the best in sc2. You seem to underestimate the correlation between the 2 games. Someone like Leenock cannot be compared to jaedong. The multitasking alone from the dong would run leenock in circles.
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On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO.
Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll.
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On December 09 2011 04:11 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think many SC2 fans are trying to deny that being very good at an RTS would help you succeed at another RTS; especially when the next RTS is the sequel of the game that you are very good at.
I think they are arguing the perception that someone like Flash could come in and dominate from day 1, without any trouble at all. The idea of the dude taking GSL within a week and then continuing to take it for seven more years.
Obviously, BW pros will be very good at any RTS game, especially SC2. Obviously some of them will eventually dominate. Obviously they will not all dominate, nor will they remain dominant forever.
I haven't heard a single person suggest that Flash and JD can start dominating instantly. Nor have I heard anyone say that Flash and JD will dominate the game for all eternity. The belief is that with enough time, Flash and JD in their current state can far surpass the current SC2 pros.
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On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll.
will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc?
I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods?
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On December 09 2011 05:08 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:11 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think many SC2 fans are trying to deny that being very good at an RTS would help you succeed at another RTS; especially when the next RTS is the sequel of the game that you are very good at.
I think they are arguing the perception that someone like Flash could come in and dominate from day 1, without any trouble at all. The idea of the dude taking GSL within a week and then continuing to take it for seven more years.
Obviously, BW pros will be very good at any RTS game, especially SC2. Obviously some of them will eventually dominate. Obviously they will not all dominate, nor will they remain dominant forever. I haven't heard a single person suggest that Flash and JD can start dominating instantly. Nor have I heard anyone say that Flash and JD will dominate the game for all eternity. The belief is that with enough time, Flash and JD in their current state can far surpass the current SC2 pros.
This is what I think most people are misunderstanding. NO ONE is saying Flash or Jaedong would win everything from the get go. But with enough time, they WILL EASILY SURPASS the current sc2 pros. The mechanical skill, the though process, the decision making is all there. They just need some time to learn the timings and the build orders. EVENTUALLY they WILL become the best. Anyone denying that is simply ignorant and naive.
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On December 09 2011 04:50 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:41 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I dont think anyone doubts that top BW pro's will be amongst the top SC2 players. But I think some people are unsure if they will blow the top sc2 players out of the water shortly after changing games. Personally I think they will do very well if they keep their dedication and strict training... But I must admit I am unsure if they will crush all competition. We see that most top sc2 players have professional BW or WC3 history. But take Naniwa for example... he wasnt big in WC3, but now he can compete with the very top in sc2... I actually think dedication is the most important factor in sc2. And the sc2 already have dedicated players that play as much as BW pro's (though I must admit that it seems that very few sc2 players have as structured training as the BW pro's).
When it comes to forgg I think he is a bad example of the elephant in the room. Didnt Jinro twitter that forgg has been playing sc2 for close to a year, and that he has been working hard on the game? He had like 4 accounts in the top 50-100 on the KR server before he joined oGs. We also need to see more games from him before we inflate him too much in my opinion. I think he looks damn good, and his style is fresh... But he is a guy that has been playing for a long time. He is absolutely not an example of BW pro's jumping over and immediately crushing faces. Just my opinion. They will NOT start playing for an hour and immediately beat someone like MVP. The macro is there, the micro may need some tweaking since the ai works differently, but the build orders will DEFINITELY need months to develop. Even someone like Flash cannot come over and simply beat everyone. He needs time to figure out the timings and little nuances of sc2. I'm not bothered by the fact that they won't immediately dominate, because they shouldn't/won't. But anyone who doubts they won't eventually become the best are naive.
I am very much a skeptic, so I don't like assuming something just because its very likely. Because you are making an assumption. Because someone is the very best at a similar game, they will be the very best at this game etc etc... thats the assumption. There are many factors to consider so I don't want to be 100% sure the BW elite will crush everyone eventually... being completely sure about this would be naive in my opinion. So I choose wait a bit. I consider stuff like having seen Jaedong play pretty sloppy lately (well sloppy compared to top shape), but still manage to pull out a win through pure mechanics and macro. He won't be able to survive doing that in SC2. I consider stuff like new blood, young players like Leenock. Young people learn extremely fast and often end up surpassing veterans fast... The BW elite might be set in their ways compared to such players.
What I am trying to say is that I can see reasons for the BW elite not being the very, very best. I do agree they will be amongst the top, its hard to see any other outcome. I am just unsure if they will sweep the floor with everyone else. And note that I say unsure... Its fully possible, I am just not convinced yet. I need something more to go on before I can be sure 
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On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods?
Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time.
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On December 09 2011 05:14 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:50 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 04:41 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I dont think anyone doubts that top BW pro's will be amongst the top SC2 players. But I think some people are unsure if they will blow the top sc2 players out of the water shortly after changing games. Personally I think they will do very well if they keep their dedication and strict training... But I must admit I am unsure if they will crush all competition. We see that most top sc2 players have professional BW or WC3 history. But take Naniwa for example... he wasnt big in WC3, but now he can compete with the very top in sc2... I actually think dedication is the most important factor in sc2. And the sc2 already have dedicated players that play as much as BW pro's (though I must admit that it seems that very few sc2 players have as structured training as the BW pro's).
When it comes to forgg I think he is a bad example of the elephant in the room. Didnt Jinro twitter that forgg has been playing sc2 for close to a year, and that he has been working hard on the game? He had like 4 accounts in the top 50-100 on the KR server before he joined oGs. We also need to see more games from him before we inflate him too much in my opinion. I think he looks damn good, and his style is fresh... But he is a guy that has been playing for a long time. He is absolutely not an example of BW pro's jumping over and immediately crushing faces. Just my opinion. They will NOT start playing for an hour and immediately beat someone like MVP. The macro is there, the micro may need some tweaking since the ai works differently, but the build orders will DEFINITELY need months to develop. Even someone like Flash cannot come over and simply beat everyone. He needs time to figure out the timings and little nuances of sc2. I'm not bothered by the fact that they won't immediately dominate, because they shouldn't/won't. But anyone who doubts they won't eventually become the best are naive. I am very much a skeptic, so I don't like assuming something just because its very likely. Because you are making an assumption. Because someone is the very best at a similar game, they will be the very best at this game etc etc... thats the assumption. There are many factors to consider so I don't want to be 100% sure the BW elite will crush everyone eventually... being completely sure about this would be naive in my opinion. So I choose wait a bit. I consider stuff like having seen Jaedong play pretty sloppy lately (well sloppy compared to top shape), but still manage to pull out a win through pure mechanics and macro. He won't be able to survive doing that in SC2. I consider stuff like new blood, young players like Leenock. Young people learn extremely fast and often end up surpassing veterans fast... The BW elite might be set in their ways compared to such players. What I am trying to say is that I can see reasons for the BW elite not being the very, very best. I do agree they will be amongst the top, its hard to see any other outcome. I am just unsure if they will sweep the floor with everyone else. And note that I say unsure... Its fully possible, I am just not convinced yet. I need something more to go on before I can be sure
Someone like Leenock may very well fit in with the top tier players. But from what I've heard he doesn't even practice that much (school I guess?). Sc2 training compared to bw training is a joke. Take that from mvp and forgg's interviews where they say that their sc2 regime is much much much more laid back than their sc1 schedules were. Kespa sc1 team houses are like slave caves. They train and train and train for many hours a day. Certainly a young leenock has potential, but if he aspires to join the greats, he's going to have to devote much more time to it
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I think this debate is a farce. The OP was interesting because it was well researched and came from someone who has some cred, but even that was speculation. Now the debate has turned into a glorified "uh huh!" "nu-uh!"
We're going to have data very soon! If you guys can just sit back and wait a little bit we'll all see very soon who is right.
I read the thread because I wanna learn more about the BW legacy...I'm not learning much anymore.
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On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods?
you do realise all 3 you mentioned are bw pros that switched. so you say ex bw pros with 1-1 1/2 years of playing sc2 might be better then other bw pros that have no clue of sc2 yet.
i dont quite get the point you are argueing for.
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EPT
