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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:13 drgonzhere wrote: Jesus this thread has grown into some sort of frankenstein monster that cannot be stopped! God help us all. Dr.Hot_Bidstein and his creation ^^ | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
They will make a splash in the SC2 scene, that is 100% certain. Their stage experience, 5-10 years of competitive gaming with rigorous training schedules, 5-10 years of macro & micro practice WILL put them ahead against others. It's just dumb trying to say that BW players won't dominate in SC2. They have years of experience in the predecessor which, everyone can say, requires more refined mechanics in SC2. HOWEVER. SC2 isn't the same as BW. I can understand peoples stand point of BW players dominating the scene if SC2 was an expansion of BW. SC2's game engine is completely different, units act in different ways, and the game is volatile. All-ins are much stronger then what they were in BW, the 'ball of units' wasn't as dominant in BW as it is in SC2 and some build orders are a complete coin flip in SC2. So it's dumb to say that they will dominate SC2. So, will we be seeing BW pros hit the top of the charts? Most definitely. Will they be dominant over the current SC2 players? Quite simply, no. The game is too volatile for current SC2 pros to 100% dominate the scene, and like-wise for BW players. That's just my two cents. | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
That being said, Broodwar pro's aren't born talented at RTS's and born with fast reaction times. Anyone that works just as hard as them will still be just as good. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:13 ZeromuS wrote: Every time i come into this thread I'm amazed it hasn't been closed yet. Why are we having an SC2 vs BW flame war? >.< Well, it's like if you take a jar and fill it with jam mixed with vinegar. Poke holes in the jar to let insects through but not out. All the wasps and bees will come and go to fight over the jam/vinegar. Then, they slowly die off trying to escape. What I mean is, this thread attracts all the flaming. Thus, when the mods log on to TL, all they have to do is look through this thread and hey presto! insta-10-ban-streak ezpz. And all the flamers just keep gettin' sucked in, one by one. Except that plan doesn't seem to have worked =/ I guess more than one jar is needed to contain the bugs. Maybe some kind of barrel is in order? | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:09 SeaSwift wrote: I know this has done the rounds many times in this very thread, but Nestea was put out as a 2v2 player before he even had a chance to get good at 1v1. Then, when Proleague dropped 2v2 after he had practiced for ages, he was so far behind everyone in 1v1 that he had no chance. Also, having practiced 1v1 for only a fraction of a time Nestea managed to qualify for the preliminaries of a StarLeague, ahead of dozens of dedicated 1v1 players who practiced 8-10 hours a day. If anyone can be exempted from the general "SC2 champions are all failed BW players" rule, it is Nestea. Sorry no he can't be exempted.. you signed up in February this year and are blatantly just parroting someone elses excuses for him. It's total bullshit... here's some other former 2v2 players..Calm (MSL winner), Yellow[arnc] (OSL runner-up), Thezerg, Jaehoon, Sangho - were all long-term A-team players. It's no excuse, please stop talking about BW history and revising it to fit players you like. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:20 vnlegend wrote: Hmm. It would only be fair if somebody went to BW General and make "The Elephant in the Room" thread for BW as well. How would that work exactly? | ||
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Sandrosuperstar
Sweden525 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote: hahah we shall see  I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead.I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. It's not bashing though. No one is making the argument that the SC2 pros aren't as talented as BW pros, or that because they play SC2 they are inherently not as good. This BW players > all stems from a few factors: 1) BW pro's practice. They practice a shitton. 10,12,14+ hours a day are not uncommon. Flash once practiced so much for a starleague that he stripped his fingers raw and they bled. If two people have similar "talent" but one practices 8 hours a day and the other is putting in 12 it's obviously who is likely to wind up better. 2) BW Team System - Yes, there are certainly teams in SC2 as well that have coaches and support staff. However, BW has it down to a system designed to improve players as quickly and efficiently as possible. 3) Time - Perhaps biggest of all; BW pros have simply been playing the game longer. The team structure has been around longer and most BW pros have had a significantly longer time "in the system" that is already in place to optimize their talent. I certainly believe that if you were to see the current SC2 pros "trade places" with the BW pros (i.e. BW pros play BW but with the amount of practice/structure of current sc2; sc2 player suddenly placed into BW practice regimen) you would soon begin to see the rise of SC2 gods and that the skill of the BW players would likely decline. Playing BW does not make you a more skilled RTS gamer than someone who plays SC2. Being a product of the BW system does. | ||
aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
"We all know that BW-players is shit and that if any sc2 player would switch over they would instantly win OSL". I guess, since that is what this thread says. | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
On December 09 2011 05:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: I haven't heard a single person suggest that Flash and JD can start dominating instantly. Nor have I heard anyone say that Flash and JD will dominate the game for all eternity. The belief is that with enough time, Flash and JD in their current state can far surpass the current SC2 pros. That's why I said "perception". The perception is that BW fans are saying that Flash, Jaedong, etc. will all instantly dominate everyone forever. I went on in another comment to explain that both sides are taking the other side's position to it's extreme and arguing that extreme rather than accepting the simple fact that none of us really disagree about anything at all. Well, almost none of us... | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:42 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: That's why I said "perception". The perception is that BW fans are saying that Flash, Jaedong, etc. will all instantly dominate everyone forever. I went on in another comment to explain that both sides are taking the other side's position to it's extreme and arguing that extreme rather than accepting the simple fact that none of us really disagree about anything at all. Well, almost none of us... Who said they would INSTANTLY dominate. It would take minimum a few months | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
To the guy who brought up NesTea. How long did NesTea play SC1 for? Probably since his youth, right? And, also, did NesTea win the GSL last week? No? Who did? A kid. Who was he playing? Was he playing NesTea? Nope. He was playing against another kid. There is a reason for that. edit: I SAID PERCEPTION FOR A REASON!!!!!!!!! | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:20 vnlegend wrote: Hmm. It would only be fair if somebody went to BW General and make "The Elephant in the Room" thread for BW as well. Well, you would need to find some SC2 pros who then enter the BW scene and proceed to dominate. LOL, like that would ever happen. Retired and second-string BW players routinely come to SC2 and dominate. BW fans interpret that as proving a higher level of play in BW than SC2 (hence, SC2 competition has been a farce). SC2 fans take offense. Look, SC2 fans: you're right, SC2 is a different game, you don't need insane mechanics, because the game is smarter. Better pathing AI, smart-casting, multiple building select, these are all good things. I enjoy playing SC2 more, because I can do more with my limited APM. But let's not get carried away. It's not that different. Its like the difference between softball and baseball. There's no question that MLB players could crush the Olympic gold-medal softball team. Yeah, different bat, different ball, different pitch, different distance to the mound. But the eagle-eyed reflexes and body strength of an MLB slugger would overwhelm any softball pitcher. I know ESPN has done some cute videos "proving" softball is just as hard as baseball, but give the MLB player a few months, and he would be sending every pitch over the fence. What we have here is equivalent to triple-A minor league and retired MLB players forming teams and dominating softball within a few months. So that's the argument. Retired and second-string BW players roll in to SC2 and dominate. Let me know when the reverse starts happening, and then you might have an argument about SC2 competition being equal to BW. | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:47 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: K, I never said they wouldn't be able to adapt. I said, rather clearly I might add, that their brains are not still growing and their "wiring" is already set in place. If you think this makes no difference whatsoever than you are flat out wrong. It will make a massive difference. To the guy who brought up NesTea. How long did NesTea play SC1 for? Probably since his youth, right? And, also, did NesTea win the GSL last week? No? Who did? A kid. Who was he playing? Was he playing NesTea? Nope. He was playing against another kid. There is a reason for that. edit: I SAID PERCEPTION FOR A REASON!!!!!!!!! So by your argument, why did Nestea, Nada, Boxer and July all become good at SC2 in the first place? | ||
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HardMacro
Canada361 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:55 YMCApylons wrote: Well, you would need to find some SC2 pros who then enter the BW scene and proceed to dominate. LOL, like that would ever happen. Retired and second-string BW players routinely come to SC2 and dominate. BW fans interpret that as proving a higher level of play in BW than SC2 (hence, SC2 competition has been a farce). SC2 fans take offense. Look, SC2 fans: you're right, SC2 is a different game, you don't need insane mechanics, because the game is smarter. Better pathing AI, smart-casting, multiple building select, these are all good things. I enjoy playing SC2 more, because I can do more with my limited APM. But let's not get carried away. It's not that different. Its like the difference between softball and baseball. There's no question that MLB players could crush the Olympic gold-medal softball team. Yeah, different bat, different ball, different pitch, different distance to the mound. But the eagle-eyed reflexes and body strength of an MLB slugger would overwhelm any softball pitcher. I know ESPN has done some cute videos "proving" softball is just as hard as baseball, but give the MLB player a few months, and he would be sending every pitch over the fence. What we have here is equivalent to triple-A minor league and retired MLB players forming teams and dominating softball within a few months. So that's the argument. Retired and second-string BW players roll in to SC2 and dominate. Let me know when the reverse starts happening, and then you might have an argument about SC2 competition being equal to BW. Hahaha really good point and analogy, the poster you replied to was most likely just trolling you though. | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
Now. We KNOW that our brains become less adaptable as we get older. This is not even in question, every single neurologist on earth would tell you that. We KNOW that this results in it being harder for an average adult to learn a new skill, talent, language, game, etc. than an average child. Taking those facts, we can extrapolate that the generation of kids who have never lived in a world without Starcraft, have been playing SC since they were seven years old; those kids will be better than those who learned it in their adulthood. Flash. He's better than Boxer, right? Why do you think that is? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:41 aderum wrote: "We all know that BW-players is shit and that if any sc2 player would switch over they would instantly win OSL". I guess, since that is what this thread says. Sigh. First no one if hell is saying anything about "instantly". Can we please stop this instantly stuff? Second, why is it taken as an affront or dig at sc2 that BW players coming in will likely rise to become top players? BW players are not being hyped as great because they played BW. Nor are brood war players "better at RTS" than SC2 players because the BW guys played BW. BW players are "better" because a) they have had way more time with their game in a system that is optimized for learning and refining talent; and, b) They practice alot more as a product of their system. It's not "oh BW takes more skill therefore BW players have to practice more than SC2 players." It's just the nature of the beast because up until SC2 all of the RTS talented and hopeful were funneled into BW and if you even wanted to have a chance you had to undergo intense training to even reach progamer status; and once accepted onto a team even more was expected of you. It's sensible to think that players who practice more will became the better players, especially given relatively equal talent. BW pros practice more not because BW is "harder" or "takes more skill" but because it is a product of their system. Now, as to why BW fans think players like Flash and Jaedong will eventually dominate: Imagine the sport of distance running. Now imagine we have a new version of distance running in which athletes must clear hurdles and jump over a water pit. It's still mostly running, so this new version of running requires alot of the skillset of the traditional running but also has a different new skill set that is needed. Some new runners come right in and start doing the new running so they are developing both running and the new jumping skillest; but the newer runners and haven't had time to reach peak potential. Then there are some established, experienced runners that were okay runners, but not the cream of the crop. They are looking to try something new or simply want to have a chance to excel in an event. They also develop their specific skill set and become better at the jumping parts than there pure running counterparts. Now imagine that in regular running there was a runner MUCH better than everyone else. He easily won races by large margins. He now switches to the new running, once he gets somewhat used to the jumping its reasonable to think that he will be better than his competition simply because he was such a superior runner and the event is still mostly running afterall. Now imagine that old running is BW, new running is SC2, the older runners that switched to new running are Nestea, MVP, etc, and that the new runners going straight to new running are people like Leenock. Ah, it all makes sense now, doesn't it? | ||
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jabberwockzerg
United States294 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:55 YMCApylons wrote: Well, you would need to find some SC2 pros who then enter the BW scene and proceed to dominate. LOL, like that would ever happen. Retired and second-string BW players routinely come to SC2 and dominate. BW fans interpret that as proving a higher level of play in BW than SC2 (hence, SC2 competition has been a farce). SC2 fans take offense. Look, SC2 fans: you're right, SC2 is a different game, you don't need insane mechanics, because the game is smarter. Better pathing AI, smart-casting, multiple building select, these are all good things. I enjoy playing SC2 more, because I can do more with my limited APM. But let's not get carried away. It's not that different. Its like the difference between softball and baseball. There's no question that MLB players could crush the Olympic gold-medal softball team. Yeah, different bat, different ball, different pitch, different distance to the mound. But the eagle-eyed reflexes and body strength of an MLB slugger would overwhelm any softball pitcher. I know ESPN has done some cute videos "proving" softball is just as hard as baseball, but give the MLB player a few months, and he would be sending every pitch over the fence. What we have here is equivalent to triple-A minor league and retired MLB players forming teams and dominating softball within a few months. So that's the argument. Retired and second-string BW players roll in to SC2 and dominate. Let me know when the reverse starts happening, and then you might have an argument about SC2 competition being equal to BW. Woah dude, that was a joke, also: a hilarious joke. | ||
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