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On December 09 2011 06:07 alhazrel wrote:Show nested quote +I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. This is either sensationalist to the point of vapidity or a poorly stated point. Brood war players do not uniformly have a better work ethic than SC2 players, the games are currently in completely different states and can't even be compared at that level. There will be brood war players that have more refined practise techniques but then the number of professional BW players is still higher than the total of SC2 pros so probability wise that was likely. If any were to cross over and bring a practise style that blew everyone else out of the water, others would soon adopt it. Although top BW players will in most cases also make top SC2 players, you should know better than to assume people who have had success in the past are guaranteed it in the future. I don't see how OP is distinguishing 'raw talent' from 'ability to learn' as the former is a fictional facet of the latter. There are some BW pros who will be very good at SC2, a few will contend at the very top, a few will be in the top pool without ever distinguishing themselves and some will have only extremely limited success. In fact, you could say that it will be as if the professional player pool is slightly more than doubling with a group of players who have a proven ability to excel in an RTS. Anything else is the same kind of rubbish counter-strike: source has been plagued with since its inception, 'OMG TOP CS TEAMS WILL PWN EVERY1'; a perception that's so far proved way off the mark. Although many BW players switched for the money, had they stayed in SC they would now be competing among the best with the marginal disadvantage of having started later than the other guys. Instead the roles will be reversed. Let's just be sensible about it please. I don't know why the article was set out in such an incendiary tone because it relies on no properly comparable facts. What does how much someone says they practise have to do with anything? I bet there's a lot of children wishing their mums would let them off with such innocuous excuses. I'm excited to see how top players with a history of playing BW a certain way adapt units to their expectations and I'm looking forward to seeing how these high level BW strats will translate into SC2 and how the competition from people forced into a highly professional approach pushes the whole scene upwards.
I'm not a fan of a good number of the points made in the article, but one of the stronger ones made are that with much of the Korean scene, many of these players were proven to either not have the talent or to not have the work ethic to cut it in BW, thus the "300 players" number. With the exceptions few and far between, pretty much every BW Pro that has switched switched primarily because there was no place for them in BW, so they took their skills to the next best thing. The exceptions are pretty much all highly notable players. Right now, the Elephant stands strong with it's small sample size. With the glaring exception of Polt, every player who has switched is an ex-BW pro, and there still stands an entire cadre of players who have proven themselves to have better Focus, Micro, Macro, and work ethic than those we currently see in SC2.
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On December 09 2011 07:20 vnlegend wrote:
Hmm. It would only be fair if somebody went to BW General and make "The Elephant in the Room" thread for BW as well.
Lmao yes please do.
MC coming back to dominate BW this time he will win TWO games before he retires.
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On December 09 2011 08:19 Kibibit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 06:07 alhazrel wrote:I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. This is either sensationalist to the point of vapidity or a poorly stated point. Brood war players do not uniformly have a better work ethic than SC2 players, the games are currently in completely different states and can't even be compared at that level. There will be brood war players that have more refined practise techniques but then the number of professional BW players is still higher than the total of SC2 pros so probability wise that was likely. If any were to cross over and bring a practise style that blew everyone else out of the water, others would soon adopt it. Although top BW players will in most cases also make top SC2 players, you should know better than to assume people who have had success in the past are guaranteed it in the future. I don't see how OP is distinguishing 'raw talent' from 'ability to learn' as the former is a fictional facet of the latter. There are some BW pros who will be very good at SC2, a few will contend at the very top, a few will be in the top pool without ever distinguishing themselves and some will have only extremely limited success. In fact, you could say that it will be as if the professional player pool is slightly more than doubling with a group of players who have a proven ability to excel in an RTS. Anything else is the same kind of rubbish counter-strike: source has been plagued with since its inception, 'OMG TOP CS TEAMS WILL PWN EVERY1'; a perception that's so far proved way off the mark. Although many BW players switched for the money, had they stayed in SC they would now be competing among the best with the marginal disadvantage of having started later than the other guys. Instead the roles will be reversed. Let's just be sensible about it please. I don't know why the article was set out in such an incendiary tone because it relies on no properly comparable facts. What does how much someone says they practise have to do with anything? I bet there's a lot of children wishing their mums would let them off with such innocuous excuses. I'm excited to see how top players with a history of playing BW a certain way adapt units to their expectations and I'm looking forward to seeing how these high level BW strats will translate into SC2 and how the competition from people forced into a highly professional approach pushes the whole scene upwards. I'm not a fan of a good number of the points made in the article, but one of the stronger ones made are that with much of the Korean scene, many of these players were proven to either not have the talent or to not have the work ethic to cut it in BW, thus the "300 players" number. With the exceptions few and far between, pretty much every BW Pro that has switched switched primarily because there was no place for them in BW, so they took their skills to the next best thing. The exceptions are pretty much all highly notable players. Right now, the Elephant stands strong with it's small sample size. With the glaring exception of Polt, every player who has switched is an ex-BW pro, and there still stands an entire cadre of players who have proven themselves to have better Focus, Micro, Macro, and work ethic than those we currently see in SC2.
To be fair that elephant never existed as this have been talked about since release. Often to the point of nagging.
I'm sure most BW pros would do great in SC2 but it feels like just using peoples results from 1-2 years ago to prove that they didn't hack it in BW isn't water proof. I was a competitive swimmer and i have countless examples of people who did really well early in their career then dropped off but also alot of people who were nonames in their teens but now compete at international levels. Just because MVP wasn't stellar back then in BW doesn't mean he didn't have potential that might have shown later on.
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On December 09 2011 07:20 vnlegend wrote:
Hmm. It would only be fair if somebody went to BW General and make "The Elephant in the Room" thread for BW as well.
How would you do that? o.O
"Hey guys, Iron and Zergbong and MVP are SC2 bonjwas lololol"?
or
"The competition in SC:BW is a farce because in SC2.... (they have Iron and Zergbong and MVP? im clueless as to put here if u wanna diss SC:BW competition)?"
This was originally a Final Edit it was moved to SC2 forums for a reason.. If this was in SC:BW forums i don't think any1 will bother.. At least i ve never seen people make thread about the likes of  Suicide Toss
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I think people who have only just started playing SC with SC2 are just very uncomfortable admitting that they are simply playing an easier game.
Who gives a fuck? I mean seriously sc2 is easier but it's still a lot of fun, not one of you in this thread will ever make a name for yourself let alone be a pro, so what's wrong with admitting that you play an easier game compared to it's predecessor?
Can you imagine a professional MLB player switching over to softball and saying, "Hmm, I doubt he's going to to that great".
It just makes you look straight up retarded.
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On December 08 2011 05:25 Helios.Star wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 05:00 HardMacro wrote:On December 08 2011 04:41 Helios.Star wrote:On December 08 2011 04:05 50bani wrote:
I haven't read this thread at all so maybe someone else has posted the same argument.
MVP is(was) the best SC1 progamer to make the switch. Sure his overall winrate is not high per his whole career but he was a lot better in the last year of BW. On the other hand, the second best SC2 player, Nestea was gawdawful at BW 1v1. He actually retired when they dropped 2v2s from proleague. How has this scrub become the benchmark of Zerg play? What we should expect is a re-randomization of skill imo, because the game plays a bit differently and you may need a different mentality in order to play the game as compared to SC1. So we will be surprised who the best players are from the current BW scene.
Also to note is that in Europe we have a lot of WarCraft3 players dominating, not quite the old SC1 players. This I believe supports the re-randomization of skill I mentioned above.
I agree, and I like the term "re-randomization of skill". There will be some top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others will fall off the map. And even though it bothers me sometimes to see people say this, the game is still very young with two expansions yet to be released. Some units will fit players style of play better than others, and it will feel like a completely different game. I also think we will see some of the current SC2 pros catch up to the BW pros as the years go if SC2 teams adopt the BW practice style. I think one reason forgg is so successful is because he found a team with a regimented practice schedule like ogs has. Right now we see SC2 pros leaving teams because the practice schedule is too demanding, and players like that wont be around for much longer. Sigh, so your belief still contradicts current evidence? Even after it's been posted 2621412 times in the thread already? ALL relevant ex-BW pros to have switched over(meaning they were at least close to A-class status at the time of switch) have done VERY WELL in SC2, including MC, Puma, MvP, Ganzi, etc. Even old school legends (B-teamers at their time of switch) have had decent results, with July's GSL final appearance and Nada's high finishes. Name ONE A-teamer from BW to switch, who has had ~1 year to catch-up and practice, that is doing poorly and "falling off the map". That's right, you can't because such a person doesn't exist; all ex-BW pros that have switched have done well, so why do you insist on predicting against this trend? I hope you understand that the vast majority of BW fans do not think of BW pros as deities with superhuman powers worthy of worship (although a few do), but rather it's the 12+ hours/day practice HABIT, the years of mechanics refinement, the skills developed in a team setting at creating/defeating/analyzing builds, and the natural very high talent pool of RTS players from BW teams that enables us to REASONABLY assume with confidence that BW pros will dominate in SC2, somewhat confirmed by the current success MvP/Puma/etc. Regarding the practice regime, judging from my knowledge of the BW progaming houses, I'd say ForGG probably practices more by himself than the oGs required practice schedule. There will be some (implying <50%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others (implying >50%) will fall off the map. VS "There will be many (~90%) top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and a few others (~10%) will fall off the map due to age."I'm willing to bet anyone good money on this. Any takers? No? That's what I thought. I never said they were "falling off the map", i said they WILL, which means in the future when current BW pros make the switch, but you were so upset with my post you read what you wanted to. I also never specifically mentioned A team BW players, you did. You honestly think EVERY BW player is going to be amazing? You talk like BW players are all tearing it up in code S when in reality there have been a few that have been knocked out of not only code S, but code A as well. I dont know where you got that I implied that more BW players than not will fall off the map, once again you read what you wanted to. Some is not equal to less than 50%, and others does not mean more than 50%, where did you even get that? I stated that BW players have superior mechanics to almost every SC2 player currently partially because of how much they practice, then you go on to talk about how Im wrong because BW players have superior mechanics and will be successful at SC2 because of how much they practice. Did you read where I said SC2 players will catch up mechanically after a few years if they practice like BW pros? Probably not.
Jesus, if you meant it like that to begin with then be more concise in your post. Other wise you just look like an idiot.
"There will be some top BW pros who switch over and have mind blowing play, and others will fall off the map."
And everything before or after it gives no context to a time in the future in reference to the pros themselves that you talk about, so ya the person correcting you was 100% correct. No shit people will EVENTUALLY, fall off the map. Every single pro has to retire eventually because younger players overtake them and they become old.
Trends tend to be a good way of predicting the future, it's called probability.
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You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game.
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On December 21 2011 01:20 BaconofWar wrote:
You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game.
Mod please ban this troll.
User was temp banned for this post and a history of warnings/bans.
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On December 21 2011 01:20 BaconofWar wrote:
You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game.
Good points, but I think you've also underestimated the mechanics side of SC2. Time-and-again, I see many of the best SC2 players make control or multi-tasking mistakes. I can also definitely see a difference between the crisp execution many of the top players have compared with mediocre control for others. Anyways, this makes me very happy because this shows that the supposed "low skill ceiling" in SC2 claimed by many BW elitists is a myth.
If the current crop of best BW players switch over, I expect them to do very well - but as you claimed, the current top SC2 pros will be very competitive against them.
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On December 21 2011 01:20 BaconofWar wrote:
You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game.
you don't make much sense because flash, jd, bisu have the BEST strategies, army management and macro (generally) alongside good mechanics. both starcraft 1 and starcraft 2 require the same skills.
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On December 21 2011 01:31 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:20 BaconofWar wrote:
You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game. Mod please ban this troll.
I fail to see how his response deserved that at all...
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On December 21 2011 01:31 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:20 BaconofWar wrote:
You make an interesting point. But I still think you're wrong. While BW and SC2 are fundamentally similar, They are different games. I think that players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are going to end up having trouble switching over, because they are so used to playing Brood War, with its high APM requirements and ridiculous micromanagement. The reason SC2 is so good for players like Nestea and MC and FruitDealer, players who didn't have illustrious careers in Brood War, is because the mechanics side of the puzzle is a little bit more relaxed so strategies, army management, and good macro are the main points. That being said, I think if players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc. switched over, I think that they could dominate. However, they'd still have tough competition from current sc2 players, because sc2 players know the game. Mod please ban this troll.
Did you even read his post?
I'm confused as to why people are keeping this alive in the first place. So many pages of the same arguments.
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This thread is still as irrelevant as it was when it was first posted, until they do then all there is... is speculation.
However I respect the opinions of the people who have been around the scene much longer than I and if had to bet on it I would bet that they would become very good more quickly than those players who hadn't had that heritage.
But there is also the point about youth, no matter what game it is whether Football, Rugby, Cricket or e-sports the future is always in the next generation of players and IMO a lot of the older BW fans maybe forgetting this. This year weve had players like Leenock JJaki in Korea (sorry for misspell) Stephano, Mana, Nerchio & Pokebunny and Illusion emerge all before they are 19 into very good players.
So the simple fact is that if BW is no longer the starting point for the next generation of talent then unless these guys dont switch over soon, then it might not matter because there will be players out there who are 15 years old now who will beat everyone.
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On December 21 2011 01:48 CursedRich wrote:
This thread is still as irrelevant as it was when it was first posted, until they do then all there is... is speculation.
However I respect the opinions of the people who have been around the scene much longer than I and if had to bet on it I would bet that they would become very good more quickly than those players who hadn't had that heritage.
But there is also the point about youth, no matter what game it is whether Football, Rugby, Cricket or e-sports the future is always in the next generation of players and IMO a lot of the older BW fans maybe forgetting this. This year weve had players like Leenock JJaki in Korea (sorry for misspell) Stephano, Mana, Nerchio & Pokebunny and Illusion emerge all before they are 19 into very good players.
So the simple fact is that if BW is no longer the starting point for the next generation of talent then unless these guys dont switch over soon, then it might not matter because there will be players out there who are 15 years old now who will beat everyone.
Yea, it's speculation, but saying Flash would be an exceptional player at SC2 is like saying Kasparov would be exceptional at Checkers. It's speculation, but it's pretty dammed likely based on their skillset/dominance at a harder/more competitive game.
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So you are saying that any BW progamer are would take a game of pretty much everyone becuase of his better skills, experience, micro and macro managment( this wouldnt be a problem for them in SC2), decision making etc...
I believe it !!. And we are actually watching B players playing SC2
Hmmmm........
Why would I bother watching B players, if I can just A class or even S class progamers playing RTS games
Thats what it matter
I'll just wait that the proscene move to SC2
Thank you =)
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On December 21 2011 02:52 therockmanxx wrote:
So you are saying that any BW progamer are would take a game of pretty much everyone becuase of his better skills, experience, micro and macro managment( this wouldnt be a problem for them in SC2), decision making etc...
I believe it !!. And we are actually watching B players playing SC2
Hmmmm........
Why would I bother watching B players, if I can just A class or even S class progamers playing RTS games
Thats what it matter
I'll just wait that the proscene move to SC2
Thank you =)
Forgg isn't a b teamer , he represented hwazeung , kt and even won a msl , looks like he's establishing a name in sc2 and I am happy to see him doing well . Forgg fighting ^_^.
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On December 21 2011 03:08 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 02:52 therockmanxx wrote:
So you are saying that any BW progamer are would take a game of pretty much everyone becuase of his better skills, experience, micro and macro managment( this wouldnt be a problem for them in SC2), decision making etc...
I believe it !!. And we are actually watching B players playing SC2
Hmmmm........
Why would I bother watching B players, if I can just A class or even S class progamers playing RTS games
Thats what it matter
I'll just wait that the proscene move to SC2
Thank you =) Forgg isn't a b teamer , he represented hwazeung , kt and even won a msl , looks like he's establishing a name in sc2 and I am happy to see him doing well . Forgg fighting ^_^.
Forgg Fighting !!!
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How is this thread still going? Stop looking at the korean scene through western eyes it wont work. All the BW players arent going to bail its not going to "die". BW is an actual sports over there. It never reached that level over here so the switch from BW to SC2 was pretty smooth. But it cant go down like that in korea. It would be like in america if somebody came out with Football2.0. How well would that workout? Oh wait somebody did it was called the XFL. You remember the XFL right? Of course you dont nobody does.
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On December 21 2011 03:25 Detwiler wrote:
How is this thread still going? Stop looking at the korean scene through western eyes it wont work. All the BW players arent going to bail its not going to "die". BW is an actual sports over there. It never reached that level over here so the switch from BW to SC2 was pretty smooth. But it cant go down like that in korea. It would be like in america if somebody came out with Football2.0. How well would that workout? Oh wait somebody did it was called the XFL. You remember the XFL right? Of course you dont nobody does.
someones behind the times. MSL is having an sc2 section, there was even a press release about a certain amount of BW pros being trained in sc2. There ended up being a thread on here with the 30 most likely to switch and even had possible practice accounts.
There WILL be a transition eventually. Based on how succesful the MSL version of sc2 is depends on how fast the transition occurs. If they try to make a competition between GSL and MSL in production value and costs and such then i believe it will mean that BW as the champion esport will fall in korea in around two years, becuase it shows they are putting a major investment into it. IF they dont try and compete and simply do their own competition/league, then bw will most likely last for a much longer time (i'm thinking 4-5 years).
If the second event occurs i believe that BW wll last as long as the stars are active. When all the supermen retire from BW i think is when the game will finally end. Supermen could always retire before sc2 and have a guaranteed succesor at some point, with the amount of sc2 pros right now, and more people switching to it, the chances of a superman that can take the game to it's current heights or higher is very rare, and so thats the lifespan of BW. How long it can produce superstars and how many fans they can get attached to them.
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Thread is still going because SC2 players seem to be unable to accept that maybe, just maybe, SC2 is an easier game than BW and BW pros are the best RTS gamers in the world. I was a shitty BW player but got into the SC2 beta and was able to get into diamond fairly earlier. 6 months of practice later, two of my buds that played on iCCup decided to give SC2 a try. It took less than a week before they were steam rolling me (Master at the time), and they weren't even that great in iccup (C/C-).
Also, watching SC2 pros it's evident how much room there is for improvement in basic areas like macro, injections, creep spread, etc..., areas that BW pros with their superior mechanics are going to excel at.
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EPT
