EPTIs that mean that SC2 is actually too simple for a competitive RTS game?
There is no place for better skillz because of easiers mechanics?
Just wondering ofcourse dont get mad.....
The Elephant in the Room - Page 206
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
Is that mean that SC2 is actually too simple for a competitive RTS game? There is no place for better skillz because of easiers mechanics? Just wondering ofcourse dont get mad..... | ||
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cive
Canada370 Posts
On December 23 2011 02:28 therockmanxx wrote: So what happen if there is a fast transition into SC2 from broodwar players and the meta game doesnt change at all, I mean after 1or 2 years, what if there is no innovation, what if nothing change.... Is that mean that SC2 is actually too simple for a competitive RTS game? There is no place for better skillz because of easiers mechanics? Just wondering ofcourse dont get mad..... Those are two very big assumptions. Though looking at some of the former BW players and team SlayerS (the closest thing to a SC1 team), it is more likely that there will be an impact when there is a large transition from SC1 to SC2. I don't think it will be because BW players are more talented, but more because they practice harder under much better condition (more money, more coaches, better housing and more competition). MC and MVP were going to be good A team players who would have played many games in proleague. However many Korean progamers in SC2 teams frequently talk about the relaxing schedules. So I doubt its a talent pool issue. I doubt SC2 is too simple for a competitive RTS. I still don't see a lot of things that you can do in SC2 from SC1 just yet. The mind games are still soft and tournaments are too much of a dash. The players are all very blend in terms of game play style as well. SC1 had this phase. It just means the game is too young to even be talking about skill ceiling. What worries me the most, is that there are TWO more expansions ahead of us. We are at a loop of "game-is-too-young" phase until the expansions finish. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:44 darklight54321 wrote: btw, the irony in that is not what you think it is. The irony is because thats exactly how a lot of BW fanboys talk about the best BW players.... The difference, of course, is that they have information on how those players fared in BW. What information does anyone have about how the best BW players will perform at SC2? The limited info we do have certainly implies good things for them. | ||
darklight54321
United States361 Posts
On December 23 2011 02:53 Treehead wrote: The difference, of course, is that they have information on how those players fared in BW. What information does anyone have about how the best BW players will perform at SC2? The limited info we do have certainly implies good things for them. what i find faulty in this argument (seen tons of times) is that every major BW pro didnt' start being gods, they started as simple men. Considering the players that switched age and their bw career only few of them would actually fall under the category that describes, such as Boxer. If some of these players had stayed in BW, whats not to say they wouldn't improve and become very good BW players? Nothing. Thats where the logic in this argument is very faulty. On December 23 2011 02:51 cive wrote: What worries me the most, is that there are TWO more expansions ahead of us. We are at a loop of "game-is-too-young" phase until the expansions finish. me, and i'm assuming tons of others, were worried about this from the start. No matter what happens we wont find the actual skill level and balance for around 6 years probably. So all this investment from the beginning may turn out to be futile, but we won't know this for such a long time that when we do find out it will be too late to find another game to take the spotlight. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 23 2011 02:59 darklight54321 wrote: what i find faulty in this argument (seen tons of times) is that every major BW pro didnt' start being gods, they started as simple men. Considering the players that switched age and their bw career only few of them would actually fall under the category that describes, such as Boxer. If some of these players had stayed in BW, whats not to say they wouldn't improve and become very good BW players? Nothing. Thats where the logic in this argument is very faulty. Age played a factor in a Bw pro career , papabear aka foru or even garimto will not be expected to make a come back in broodwar because they are too old and the new generation players like TBLS will easily roll them . Boxer before switching to sc2 was a playing coach for skt1 and wasn't even fielded , nada on the other hand was still active in proleague games , Sadly it's reality that we grow old and our speed do decrease when we do age and not being able to play as fast as the young kids do will definitely affect your performance . Although I see that the speed limitation is actually been minimized because of sc2 friendly system provided by the game . | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:05 Sawamura wrote: Age played a factor in a Bw pro career , papabear aka foru or even garimto will not be expected to make a come back in broodwar because they are too old and the new generation players like TBLS will easily roll them . Boxer before switching to sc2 was a playing coach for skt1 and wasn't even fielded , nada on the other hand was still active in proleague games , Sadly it's reality that we grow old and our speed do decrease when we do age and not being able to play as fast as the young kids do will definitely affect your performance . Although I see that the speed limitation is actually been minimized because of sc2 friendly system provided by the game . I find that hard to believe, i think it mainly has to do with drive and passion falling off as well as lower practice hours. I don't think age has much to do with dexterity in this case. Alot of older players in quake said that too, but then they don't play as much anymore, so of course their mechanics are gonna be worse(in this case aim). Also, alot of the older players had bad habits, while the newer players didn't have those habits. Take for example boxer using arrow keys, that's a hard habit to break, as well as lots of pros with less than ideal Hhotkey setups in the earlier years. And it just got more and more refined as time went on. I think that's partly at why Broodwar had so much turnover. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On December 23 2011 02:51 cive wrote: Does the last part necessarily have to be bad though?Those are two very big assumptions. Though looking at some of the former BW players and team SlayerS (the closest thing to a SC1 team), it is more likely that there will be an impact when there is a large transition from SC1 to SC2. I don't think it will be because BW players are more talented, but more because they practice harder under much better condition (more money, more coaches, better housing and more competition). MC and MVP were going to be good A team players who would have played many games in proleague. However many Korean progamers in SC2 teams frequently talk about the relaxing schedules. So I doubt its a talent pool issue. I doubt SC2 is too simple for a competitive RTS. I still don't see a lot of things that you can do in SC2 from SC1 just yet. The mind games are still soft and tournaments are too much of a dash. The players are all very blend in terms of game play style as well. SC1 had this phase. It just means the game is too young to even be talking about skill ceiling. What worries me the most, is that there are TWO more expansions ahead of us. We are at a loop of "game-is-too-young" phase until the expansions finish. Expansions are probably good for the scene since there is so much focus on "new" games in gaming and Blizzard needs to make money as well. Without updates for years, question is if sc2 will be able to stay at the top. All it takes is some other RTS that is as good or better to watch that create more fuzz that stays "new". And there are probably RTS games in the making or being planned with the sc2 market in mind already. If for example Valve goes for an sc2 like RTS it could probably be a pretty bad game and still become big just because Valve made it and steam. It wouldn't surprise me if releasing an expansion every year could be a working model as long the changes are small steps. Perhaps 1 new unit 1 expand, 1-2 added abilities and to existing units 1 expan, updated graphics another expansion and so on. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:20 r_con wrote: I find that hard to believe, i think it mainly has to do with drive and passion falling off as well as lower practice hours. I don't think age has much to do with dexterity in this case. Alot of older players in quake said that too, but then they don't play as much anymore, so of course their mechanics are gonna be worse(in this case aim). Also, alot of the older players had bad habits, while the newer players didn't have those habits. Take for example boxer using arrow keys, that's a hard habit to break, as well as lots of pros with less than ideal Hhotkey setups in the earlier years. And it just got more and more refined as time went on. I think that's partly at why Broodwar had so much turnover. Many players who were older than 24 years old were considered expired on pro gaming teams , this can be seen in NGO coverage of the WCG games and starcraft . Sadly not many old players considered prolonging their gaming career be it because of their lack of dexterity to keep up , as mention when the marine and yellow was talking about how they thought that is the maximum apm they could have conjured up during their pro gaming days and than compared to players like flash and jaedong , it's just crazy, Flash and CO played way much more faster than yellow and the marine could ever played , shows how competitive the broodwar scene has become . Older pro's do not stand a chance against the young guns (TBLS) although games like Yellow v Bisu , still makes me scream , HONG JING HO , he is still a hero to me . Than again it could be anything the lack of interest , thinking about life besides gaming , getting a girl friend , making a more stable career , these will definitely be in the back of the minds of this old pro's . I am not saying these guy's can't continue the way Boxer and nada are doing but maybe a career in pro gaming isn't really that viable in the long term . | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:05 Sawamura wrote: Age played a factor in a Bw pro career , papabear aka foru or even garimto will not be expected to make a come back in broodwar because they are too old and the new generation players like TBLS will easily roll them . Boxer before switching to sc2 was a playing coach for skt1 and wasn't even fielded , nada on the other hand was still active in proleague games , Sadly it's reality that we grow old and our speed do decrease when we do age and not being able to play as fast as the young kids do will definitely affect your performance . Although I see that the speed limitation is actually been minimized because of sc2 friendly system provided by the game . Age decreasing our hand speed in the 30's like a lot of BW players seem to think is the dumbest most made up idea I've heard in my entire life. Look at the real world to finnd why this is a silly notion. The best musicians are in their 40's and 50's. Do you think the things that Steve Vai or Yngwie Malmsteen or Joe Satriani do take any less had coordinnation than playing SC2 or BW? They take over 10x as much as what it takes flash to play the way he does, and they're in their 40's and I'm pretty sure Joe Satriani is in his 50's by now. Look at the top piano players same story. You can maybe try and argue that the mental speed decreases with age, but that's a different argument than from what I hear everyone make about "oh your hands are slow when you're over 25." Please just put this silly notion of age playing a difference in playing speed to rest, unless you're trying to tell me that boxer is in his 60's now, the idea of him being too old to play is just silly. | ||
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0ne
Spain2464 Posts
Boxer made it to code S even though he has to manage his own starcraft 2 team. Any of them was good at sc1 when they switched. BW is coming  . | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
} To the BW fanboys(not the fanboy part) : If the BW pros dominate:¨See we told you! BW pros are much more talented you guys got a year of farce games even though that doesn´t make sense because at the time they were the best SC2 playaer playing SC2. Obviously the Boxer era was a farce too because they played crappily relatively to modern BW. Probably SC2 is too easy for them, FAIL GAME¨ If the BW pros don´t dominate:¨See, we told you that the Skill ceiling for SC2 is waaay too low, look at how Zergbong and Iron are competing with TBLS. FAIL GAME¨ And there is the fact that really, who cares? If you enjoy watching SC2 or BW then watch it and enjoy them. Don´t think about the switch, if they switch then support them if you are a fan. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:32 hunts wrote: Age decreasing our hand speed in the 30's like a lot of BW players seem to think is the dumbest most made up idea I've heard in my entire life. Look at the real world to finnd why this is a silly notion. The best musicians are in their 40's and 50's. Do you think the things that Steve Vai or Yngwie Malmsteen or Joe Satriani do take any less had coordinnation than playing SC2 or BW? They take over 10x as much as what it takes flash to play the way he does, and they're in their 40's and I'm pretty sure Joe Satriani is in his 50's by now. Look at the top piano players same story. You can maybe try and argue that the mental speed decreases with age, but that's a different argument than from what I hear everyone make about "oh your hands are slow when you're over 25." Please just put this silly notion of age playing a difference in playing speed to rest, unless you're trying to tell me that boxer is in his 60's now, the idea of him being too old to play is just silly. Well let's just put it this way you are comparing a much more stable profession , to a profession which requires as much as a dexterity to be played at a highly competitive levels , show me a player who is actually 30 years old still playing broodwar and has a win rate of 57% . Likely the music profession is a life time thing , your passion is for more music and definitely your skill will be there , because you have been practising the instrument since you were a kid , on the other hand Broodwar is a game , do we really manifest our broodwar knowledge in reality ? or do we bring in reality concept to broodwar ? likely the former will not be the case as seen in Iloveoov example of using maths to build order . It could be anything that would make the broodwar player who is old to say that their dexterity is really getting slow by age and I believe this common point of view can be easily shared if you ask boxer,oov and any old harden pro's from broodwar. On December 23 2011 03:36 windsupernova wrote: Lol I wonder if you guys realize the futility of arguing over this.XD } To the BW fanboys(not the fanboy part) : If the BW pros dominate:¨See we told you! BW pros are much more talented you guys got a year of farce games even though that doesn´t make sense because at the time they were the best SC2 playaer playing SC2. Obviously the Boxer era was a farce too because they played crappily relatively to modern BW. Probably SC2 is too easy for them, FAIL GAME¨ If the BW pros don´t dominate:¨See, we told you that the Skill ceiling for SC2 is waaay too low, look at how Zergbong and Iron are competing with TBLS. FAIL GAME¨ And there is the fact that really, who cares? If you enjoy watching SC2 or BW then watch it and enjoy them. Don´t think about the switch, if they switch then support them if you are a fan. Forgg is a proving to be quite a force in sc2 and as a kt fan I am really happy for him ^_^ . | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:39 Sawamura wrote: Well let's just put it this way you are comparing a much more stable profession , to a profession which requires as much as a dexterity to be played at a highly competitive levels , show me a player who is actually 30 years old still playing broodwar and has a win rate of 57% . Likely the music profession is a life time thing , your passion is for more music and definitely your skill will be there , because you have been practising the instrument since you were a kid , on the other hand Broodwar is a game , do we really manifest our broodwar knowledge in reality ? or do we bring in reality concept to broodwar ? likely the former will not be the case as seen in Iloveoov example of using maths to build order . It could be anything that would make the broodwar player who is old to say that their dexterity is really getting slow by age and I believe this common point of view can be easily shared if you ask boxer,oov and any old harden pro's from broodwar. Forgg is a proving to be quite a force in sc2 and as a kt fan I am really happy for him ^_^ . Ynwie malmsteen is 48 now So... are you telling me someone half his age won't have the dexterity to play BW or SC2? Are you telling me that's less dexterity than what it takes to play a video game? Again how does him playing music since he was a kid change the fact that he's old now and has more hand dexterity than players like flash ever will? I'd say this is good proof that the idea of people being too old for BW or SC2 when they're over 24 is just a silly made up notion, and almost anyone will tell you that. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
I believe that bw scene will either switch as a whole or only few notable players will switch and rest will go to retirement. hunts - the age in starcraft is not an argument of hand dexterity but rather practice time/quality. Professional starcraft (400 apm is not your hand max)will never cap your hand dexterity (if you are healthy), your "speed" in game is simply learned behaviors to each situations that happen in game, on top of that starcraft require constant analyzing and other demanding processes. Sorry but playing an instrument is not as tasking(relatively speaking), as it is unchanging environment, its simply remember--> do mechanism which is easier mental process. Then lets back, why Flash is so good? Because he has great practice effectiveness, which is time of practice and its quality, quality depends on your practice partner, your mental and physical endurance which both are superior in younger age. ETC ETC ETC its possible but unlikely to have winning oldies | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:49 hunts wrote: Ynwie malmsteen is 48 now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ssl1DyyIgI&feature=related So... are you telling me someone half his age won't have the dexterity to play BW or SC2? Are you telling me that's less dexterity than what it takes to play a video game? Again how does him playing music since he was a kid change the fact that he's old now and has more hand dexterity than players like flash ever will? I'd say this is good proof that the idea of people being too old for BW or SC2 when they're over 24 is just a silly made up notion, and almost anyone will tell you that. Liked i said it's pretty evident that no pro gamers who are 30 years old or as old as Ynwie winning games at a win rate of 57% and above supports my argument that if the old pro gamers doesn't feel he can compete at the same level of the youngsters it's time to send in that resignation letter and majority of them already have done that . Although  Sheis is still coaching stx terran players . You see many of these old grizzle players still coaching for their team and close to 0% are they still playing for their teams anymore . | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On December 21 2011 04:15 darklight54321 wrote: ....someones behind the times. MSL is having an sc2 section, there was even a press release about a certain amount of BW pros being trained in sc2..... Hurts my brain. Really hurts. | ||
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leser
Croatia239 Posts
it's much more of an age->mentality thing that destroys really good players. People prioritize (and for a good reason) education, family, careers and stuff like that. No matter how good you are, even in the sc2 e-sports boom, being a player will not set you for life in 99.9% cases, while having a decent education will. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On December 23 2011 03:55 Sawamura wrote: Liked i said it's pretty evident that no pro gamers who are 30 years old or as old as Ynwie winning games at a win rate of 57% and above supports my argument that if the old pro gamers doesn't feel he can compete at the same level of the youngsters it's time to send in that resignation letter and majority of them already have done that . Although Sheis is still coaching stx terran players . You see many of these old grizzle players still coaching for their team and close to 0% are they still playing for their teams anymore .Worth to note that doesnt mean they CANNOT play(as if they lost their abilities etc), but they are unfit to CURRENT competition. Coaches still play vs players in team, or show them strategies etc. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
SC2 I believe is much more complicated.. there is many more factors that go into the game that is simply not in BW... units have more mobility, units have more hard counters.... there is a'lot less simplicity in the units,ect. I think we will be always be seeing interesting play in SC2. There is just too much shit to try | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
way to pick and choose, i later amended that to a kespa run tournament, i just pulled MSL out of my ass just to get a name instead of constantly saying kespa ran tournament/league over and over. | ||
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