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On December 09 2011 05:19 Klondikebar wrote:
I think this debate is a farce. The OP was interesting because it was well researched and came from someone who has some cred, but even that was speculation. Now the debate has turned into a glorified "uh huh!" "nu-uh!"
We're going to have data very soon! If you guys can just sit back and wait a little bit we'll all see very soon who is right.
I read the thread because I wanna learn more about the BW legacy...I'm not learning much anymore.
The debate has too many sides to it. One is people saying the sc1 greats will become the best in sc2 after their 1st game on ladder, that is bullshit. Another is saying they won't become the best in sc2 because they won't be able to keep up with the current best sc2 pros (a woongjin terran lol...). A third group is saying they will become the best in sc2 over time, that is an assumption yes...but it's a very very damn good one.
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On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO.
Nestea and MVP both played Brood War for years, and Nestea is 28. Flash is 9 years younger. Pretty sure that if Nestea can adapt, then Flash can too.
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On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time.
hahah we shall see  I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead.
I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time.
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On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time.
I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros.
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On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros.
Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them.
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The Elephant was at least partially right. The level of play at the time the article was written and the current level of play are night and day. With fOrGG and soon Hyun we'll have more concrete results soon.
The current sc2 pros (ex bw or not) skill level is rapidly increasing.
Broodwar pros converting to sc2 will obviously have a headstart, but imo that doesn't mean that someone who never played broodwar can't attain the same level. It'll just take more time as practice is everything.
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On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them.
But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future.
Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment.
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ForGG is already in Code S and he's only been seriously training for two months. He was playing on the ladder for several months before that, but even now, he says the training is very laid back compared to Brood War.
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This article begins with a fundamentally stupid headline and unfortunately never quite manages to escape it despite having some good points buried in there.
'The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce' - Does anyone want to support this because it's ridiculous to base this on the fact that there are players in BW who haven't switched that have the potential to excel at sc2.
Every time anyone mentions 'skill' at the game they should chop off their fingers. In SC2 we see people winning with numerous different approaches, often things that only work for one tournament before people learn how to scout and counter them. I'd rather discuss 'strategy' and 'fundamentals'.
SC players will definitely have extremely strong fundamentals with top class macro to rival the best macro players in sc2. In itself, this almost guarantees that they'll be competitive, but the strategy, under which loose header I include understanding unit behaviour, composition and the space control that various units can maintain, brood war players may find themselves with expectations that hinder their effectiveness.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
This is either sensationalist to the point of vapidity or a poorly stated point. Brood war players do not uniformly have a better work ethic than SC2 players, the games are currently in completely different states and can't even be compared at that level. There will be brood war players that have more refined practise techniques but then the number of professional BW players is still higher than the total of SC2 pros so probability wise that was likely. If any were to cross over and bring a practise style that blew everyone else out of the water, others would soon adopt it.
Although top BW players will in most cases also make top SC2 players, you should know better than to assume people who have had success in the past are guaranteed it in the future. I don't see how OP is distinguishing 'raw talent' from 'ability to learn' as the former is a fictional facet of the latter. There are some BW pros who will be very good at SC2, a few will contend at the very top, a few will be in the top pool without ever distinguishing themselves and some will have only extremely limited success.
In fact, you could say that it will be as if the professional player pool is slightly more than doubling with a group of players who have a proven ability to excel in an RTS. Anything else is the same kind of rubbish counter-strike: source has been plagued with since its inception, 'OMG TOP CS TEAMS WILL PWN EVERY1'; a perception that's so far proved way off the mark. Although many BW players switched for the money, had they stayed in SC they would now be competing among the best with the marginal disadvantage of having started later than the other guys. Instead the roles will be reversed.
Let's just be sensible about it please. I don't know why the article was set out in such an incendiary tone because it relies on no properly comparable facts. What does how much someone says they practise have to do with anything? I bet there's a lot of children wishing their mums would let them off with such innocuous excuses.
I'm excited to see how top players with a history of playing BW a certain way adapt units to their expectations and I'm looking forward to seeing how these high level BW strats will translate into SC2 and how the competition from people forced into a highly professional approach pushes the whole scene upwards.
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On December 09 2011 05:45 hewley wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them. But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future. Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment.
There definitely is a much higher skill cap, no ones reached it yet. But's it's just asinine and silly to try and say that the top SC2 pros will be stuck where they are now while the BW pros will come in and overthrow all of them. It's silly to think that mediocre BW pros will be up there with the likes of mvp/nnestea and that the top bw pros like flash will zoom past them in skill while they're all practicing. This thinking really seems to stem from the attitude of "SC2 will kill our game so we will shit talk them until they feel like ours is superior." I'm sorry but I don't buy that, and neither do most other people.
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On December 09 2011 06:07 alhazrel wrote:
This article begins with a fundamentally stupid headline and unfortunately never quite manages to escape it despite having some good points buried in there.
'The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce' - Does anyone want to support this because it's ridiculous to base this on the fact that there are players in BW who haven't switched that have the potential to excel at sc2.
That statement might be a bit too harsh and unfair, but I can definitely see where he's coming from. Right now, SC2 feels like the place for BW rejects to make a name for themselves by taking advantage of the inferior competition in SC2 and succeed when they never could in BW. This knowledge definitely makes it harder to take the SC2 competition seriously. For long time BW followers, it's hard not to roll your eyes when you see Tastosis rambling on about how godly Nestea and MVP are.
Every time anyone mentions 'skill' at the game they should chop off their fingers. In SC2 we see people winning with numerous different approaches, often things that only work for one tournament before people learn how to scout and counter them. I'd rather discuss 'strategy' and 'fundamentals'.
SC players will definitely have extremely strong fundamentals with top class macro to rival the best macro players in sc2. In itself, this almost guarantees that they'll be competitive, but the strategy, under which loose header I include understanding unit behaviour, composition and the space control that various units can maintain, brood war players may find themselves with expectations that hinder their effectiveness.
What is the basis for that statement? Because up to this point, it hasn't proven to be true. BW players aren't mindless robots who are going to play SC2 exactly like it was BW.
This is either sensationalist to the point of vapidity or a poorly stated point. Brood war players do not uniformly have a better work ethic than SC2 players, the games are currently in completely different states and can't even be compared at that level. There will be brood war players that have more refined practise techniques but then the number of professional BW players is still higher than the total of SC2 pros so probability wise that was likely. If any were to cross over and bring a practise style that blew everyone else out of the water, others would soon adopt it.
Actually, it's more or less true. The BW practice regime is far more rigorous and strict than that of any SC2 proteam. Moreover, BW teams are a lot more organized and there's a huge amount of money invested just into coaching and managing the teams.
Although top BW players will in most cases also make top SC2 players, you should know better than to assume people who have had success in the past are guaranteed it in the future. I don't see how OP is distinguishing 'raw talent' from 'ability to learn' as the former is a fictional facet of the latter. There are some BW pros who will be very good at SC2, a few will contend at the very top, a few will be in the top pool without ever distinguishing themselves and some will have only extremely limited success.
In fact, you could say that it will be as if the professional player pool is slightly more than doubling with a group of players who have a proven ability to excel in an RTS. Anything else is the same kind of rubbish counter-strike: source has been plagued with since its inception, 'OMG TOP CS TEAMS WILL PWN EVERY1'; a perception that's so far proved way off the mark. Although many BW players switched for the money, had they stayed in SC they would now be competing among the best with the marginal disadvantage of having started later than the other guys. Instead the roles will be reversed.
Let's just be sensible about it please. I don't know why the article was set out in such an incendiary tone because it relies on no properly comparable facts. What does how much someone says they practise have to do with anything? I bet there's a lot of children wishing their mums would let them off with such innocuous excuses.
I'm excited to see how top players with a history of playing BW a certain way adapt units to their expectations and I'm looking forward to seeing how these high level BW strats will translate into SC2 and how the competition from people forced into a highly professional approach pushes the whole scene upwards.
Uh, what? Again, you seem to be implying that BW players are all morons who are going to play SC2 exactly like it was BW and control units in the identical way and use the same strategies from BW. BW strats translating to SC2? What makes you think they're going to be using BW strats?
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On December 09 2011 06:08 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:45 hewley wrote:On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them. But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future. Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment. There definitely is a much higher skill cap, no ones reached it yet. But's it's just asinine and silly to try and say that the top SC2 pros will be stuck where they are now while the BW pros will come in and overthrow all of them. It's silly to think that mediocre BW pros will be up there with the likes of mvp/nnestea and that the top bw pros like flash will zoom past them in skill while they're all practicing. This thinking really seems to stem from the attitude of "SC2 will kill our game so we will shit talk them until they feel like ours is superior." I'm sorry but I don't buy that, and neither do most other people.
How is it silly? And FYI, it's not just "bitter BW fanboys" making these claims. If you don't want to take our word for it, why not atleast listen to the likes of intrigue and Hot_Bid? Those guys are almost entirely invested in the SC2 scene.
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On December 09 2011 06:08 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:45 hewley wrote:On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them. But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future. Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment. There definitely is a much higher skill cap, no ones reached it yet. But's it's just asinine and silly to try and say that the top SC2 pros will be stuck where they are now while the BW pros will come in and overthrow all of them. It's silly to think that mediocre BW pros will be up there with the likes of mvp/nnestea and that the top bw pros like flash will zoom past them in skill while they're all practicing. This thinking really seems to stem from the attitude of "SC2 will kill our game so we will shit talk them until they feel like ours is superior." I'm sorry but I don't buy that, and neither do most other people.
Nestea was a terrible BW player and MVP was a below-average A-teamer on a team with weak terran line up. Yes, MVP was improving but Nestea had almost a decade to make any significant impact on 1v1 and didn't. Why is it impossible to believe that players with far superior mechanics, superior practice, superior dedication, superior teammates (assuming a whole BW team switches, for instance) wouldn't be better given enough time?
A name like S2 doesn't get you out of his seat but he is still a more well-rounded player now than Boxer has ever been at any one point in his career. S2 might not dominate like Flash would but he would be up there with the best.
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Sc2 competition is a joke, anyone can lose to anyone
edit : and it will fade soon
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On December 09 2011 05:44 MrCon wrote:
The Elephant was at least partially right. The level of play at the time the article was written and the current level of play are night and day. With fOrGG and soon Hyun we'll have more concrete results soon.
The current sc2 pros (ex bw or not) skill level is rapidly increasing.
Broodwar pros converting to sc2 will obviously have a headstart, but imo that doesn't mean that someone who never played broodwar can't attain the same level. It'll just take more time as practice is everything.
HyuN i think would have been a likely candidate for a BW player who would retire after the end of the season if SC2 wasn't around.. he was seemingly past his peak and more likely imo a player who isn't going to show much in SC2.
Funny that the players who would potentially do the best just decided to quit (Midas/HiyA). Cause they were in better condition than even fOrGG and would have shown it more clearly, but apparently SC2 isn't a big enough deal to bother switching to haha.
edit: and people thinking MVP and Nestea are exceptional will always be funny to me
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On December 09 2011 06:55 setzer wrote:
Nestea was a terrible BW player and MVP was a below-average A-teamer on a team with weak terran line up. Yes, MVP was improving but Nestea had almost a decade to make any significant impact on 1v1 and didn't. Why is it impossible to believe that players with far superior mechanics, superior practice, superior dedication, superior teammates (assuming a whole BW team switches, for instance) wouldn't be better given enough time?
A name like S2 doesn't get you out of his seat but he is still a more well-rounded player now than Boxer has ever been at any one point in his career. S2 might not dominate like Flash would but he would be up there with the best.
I know this has done the rounds many times in this very thread, but Nestea was put out as a 2v2 player before he even had a chance to get good at 1v1. Then, when Proleague dropped 2v2 after he had practiced for ages, he was so far behind everyone in 1v1 that he had no chance.
Also, having practiced 1v1 for only a fraction of a time Nestea managed to qualify for the preliminaries of a StarLeague, ahead of dozens of dedicated 1v1 players who practiced 8-10 hours a day.
If anyone can be exempted from the general "SC2 champions are all failed BW players" rule, it is Nestea.
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On December 09 2011 06:08 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:45 hewley wrote:On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them. But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future. Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment. There definitely is a much higher skill cap, no ones reached it yet. But's it's just asinine and silly to try and say that the top SC2 pros will be stuck where they are now while the BW pros will come in and overthrow all of them. It's silly to think that mediocre BW pros will be up there with the likes of mvp/nnestea and that the top bw pros like flash will zoom past them in skill while they're all practicing. This thinking really seems to stem from the attitude of "SC2 will kill our game so we will shit talk them until they feel like ours is superior." I'm sorry but I don't buy that, and neither do most other people.
No, most people do not "not buy into it", only people who have no knowledge of sc1 think what you think. What makes you think mvp and nestea are special? Nestea had a very very long time to improve in sc1, he never did. Mvp was a "poor" a-teamer. What is it about mvp and nestea that make you think they're the end all be all of sc2? They're the best of the worst, that's why they're at the top right now.
I honestly don't have a clue why sc2 purists are so naive to think that the current top players are here to stay, it didn't stay for sc1, it won't stay for sc2. IT'S A GOOD THING to have the skill level keep rising. Do you guys not want to see higher level play? Or are you guys such fan boys of the current top tier players that you would quit the game to see them get overtaken? I love mvp and nestea, they're amazing players, but to think they will always be at the top of sc2 is retardedly naive and you know it.
There is nothing special about mvp or nestea. They aren't just naturally talented at sc2 or whatever bullshit you think. They're the best of the worst I'll say that again. Once the better switch over, it's only a matter of time before the current top tier drops down. Why do you think boxer, nada and oov fell in sc1?
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On December 09 2011 06:08 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:45 hewley wrote:On December 09 2011 05:35 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:29 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 05:28 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:15 rysecake wrote:On December 09 2011 05:11 hunts wrote:On December 09 2011 05:05 wassbix wrote:On December 09 2011 04:52 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I doubt they will become the best because they are already too old.
Someone like Jjakji or Leenock will be the best. Probably someone even younger than them.
Some of them may be the best for a time, sure, but they will never be the best of the best. They have spent too little an amount of time playing the one game and too much playing the other. Their brains are wired for SCBW, not SC2.
They will still dominate, because their brains are wired for RTS's too, but they will not be the best of best IMO. Nestea was a bad BW player in his prime and in his 30s he is considered the best SC2 player so lolllll. will you still be laughing though when the current top BW pros switch over to SC2 and get spanked by nestea/mvp/mc? I mean I'm sure they'll all do well, but can you BW people really not see the audacity of trying to say that any of the BW pros can come into SC2 and dominate the SC2 gods? Yes, I'm saying that they will dominate the sc2 "gods" (if you can even call them that). How much time they will take to become the best I don't know. But they will become the best in time. hahah we shall see I'm sure some of them will reach that high of a level, I'm sure plenty won't, and to outright say that all the Bw pros will dominate all the SC2 pros is just an arrogant and audacious statement, which seems to stem from resentment. I hope I'm not being too harsh here, but in this thread it really feels like a lot of the BW fans are coming over here to bash on SC2s skill because they are angry that in time SC2 will take over and BW will eventually be dead. I have plenty of respect for BW and its fans and players, but really so many people in this thread just seem so spiteful in their comments of "bah sc2 pros are trash bw pros will take over in no time if they switch!" But like I said, we will see in due time. I don't think anyone said that all that BW pros would dominate all SC2 pros. We've been mainly talking about the very best BW pros. Well I have no doubt that the very best BW pros will do very well in SC2. I don't think they will really overthrow the current top SC2 pros, but I'm sure they will be up there with them. But thats the point of the article. Mediocre BW pros (A-teamers like Mvp in his past) will be up there with the current top Sc2 pros, while Flash, JD etc. will most likely overthrow them in the future. Do you really think that there isn't a significant higher skill level/ceiling than Mvp or Nestea show us now? If not, it would be pretty sad, if the highest level of Sc2 skill is already displayed at the moment. There definitely is a much higher skill cap, no ones reached it yet. But's it's just asinine and silly to try and say that the top SC2 pros will be stuck where they are now while the BW pros will come in and overthrow all of them. It's silly to think that mediocre BW pros will be up there with the likes of mvp/nnestea and that the top bw pros like flash will zoom past them in skill while they're all practicing. This thinking really seems to stem from the attitude of "SC2 will kill our game so we will shit talk them until they feel like ours is superior." I'm sorry but I don't buy that, and neither do most other people.
first i dont like the idea of people like flash switching and i highly doubt it will happen in 1-2 years, NOTHING indicates them willing to switch yet
but hypothetically if they switch they will have actually an easier road, because blizzard will reset meta game at least twice (starcraft --> BW was completely different game), myriads of balance patches and new developments will also help, if they switch within that time they will (or should given their career history) catch up AT LEAST as fast as Nestea, and later it will be the question if Nestea/MVP will live through it.
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Jesus this thread has grown into some sort of frankenstein monster that cannot be stopped! God help us all.
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Canada13403 Posts
Every time i come into this thread I'm amazed it hasn't been closed yet. Why are we having an SC2 vs BW flame war?
>.<
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EPT
