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On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often.
Flash has 70% win rate, not 95%
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Reaally good read, took me two days to disect it.
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On December 01 2011 21:38 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often. Flash has 70% win rate, not 95%
70% win rate in BW is fucking absurd though.
even 60% can be generalized as dominate in a matchup.
70% for each game translates into 90+% in a Bo5 doesn't it?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49506 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:08 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 21:38 OutlaW- wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often. Flash has 70% win rate, not 95% 70% win rate in BW is fucking absurd though. even 60% can be generalized as dominate in a matchup. 70% for each game translates into 90+% in a Bo5 doesn't it?
uh huh :p.
god being god.
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On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this.
You're just stupid.
Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread.
Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random.
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On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random.
Broodwar:
Last 5 OSL titles:
Flash 3
Jaedong 1
Hydra 1
Last 5 MSL titles:
Flash 2
Effort 1
Fantasy 1
JangBi 1
StarCraft 2
Last 10 GSL titles:
MMA 1
MVP 3
NesTea 3
Polt 1
MC 2
Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2)
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On December 02 2011 01:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random. Broodwar:Last 5 OSL titles: Flash 3 Jaedong 1 Hydra 1 Last 5 MSL titles: Flash 2 Effort 1 Fantasy 1 JangBi 1 StarCraft 2Last 10 GSL titles: MMA 1 MVP 3 NesTea 3 Polt 1 MC 2 Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2)
GSL isn't comparable to MSL or OSL.
Let's just start with the length of each league: when you win 3 MSLs, that's displaying dominance over an entire year. when you win 3 GSLs, that's displaying dominance over 3 months~. Therefore just by length of each tournament a GSL title doesn't say the same thing as an MSL or OSL title.
Flash still has to carry his shitty supporting cast in Proleague in addition to being in dual starleagues, whereas GSL is pretty much the only tournament that Korean Sc2 progamers focus on (GSTL isn't exactly comparable to Proleague).
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Why I love BW: When you play it, even just a couple of times and then you watch how the pros play, you'll be like "how the hell are they doing that?" on top of the brilliant strategies and mind games they pull off (contrary to the belief of some that it has less strategies. It just has a different set because of different units and such.) Seriously, try BW and you'll appreciate what they do. And no, just because it takes more mechanics in BW doesn't mean strategies are sacrificed. Who brought in that kind of thinking? Especially in this generation of multi-taskers working at many different things at once and improve on doing them at the same time.
Why I love SC2: It's fun to watch a game evolve before your eyes so quickly. I understand this is a double edge sword, even for me as people who work hard to perfect their strategies may find themselves not being able to use it anymore in a few months. But it's still fun to see how creative they can get and all of these up and comers.
In the end though, I appreciate BW more because how can it be bad to have to maintain more skills to be good? It just means these pros put a shit ton of work into being the best at the game, juggling all the tasks they have to do physically, like getting workers to mine, individually making units, multi-prong attacks, and mentally like specific strategies, adaptation to opponent, scouting.
It makes you appreciate how Bisu can have godly control over his probe like he's not taking his selection off it but he's still able to manage his base perfectly. I can't even do that in SC2! I have to queue up a bunch of move points for my probe.
TL;DR Appreciate BW pros because of all the things they have to do at a time and what they've accomplished. Enjoy the evolution of SC2 as it strives to become a continually better game.
Edit: SC2 desparately needs something like proleague, I believe. GSTL is nice but nowhere as prestigious as PL. This is where up and comers are born in BW.
Edit2: With regards to people saying people can't focus on strat in BW because of the intensive mechanics, then you haven't watched how Fantasy dissected Stork in more ways than one on his way to his first OSL title and in the next season how Jangbi was the one who dissected Fantasy on his way to his first title. Both got into the gameplay of their opponent and was able to take advantage.
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On December 02 2011 01:56 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:47 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random. Broodwar:Last 5 OSL titles: Flash 3 Jaedong 1 Hydra 1 Last 5 MSL titles: Flash 2 Effort 1 Fantasy 1 JangBi 1 StarCraft 2Last 10 GSL titles: MMA 1 MVP 3 NesTea 3 Polt 1 MC 2 Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2) GSL isn't comparable to MSL or OSL. Let's just start with the length of each league: when you win 3 MSLs, that's displaying dominance over an entire year. when you win 3 GSLs, that's displaying dominance over 3 months~. Therefore just by length of each tournament a GSL title doesn't say the same thing as an MSL or OSL title. Flash still has to carry his shitty supporting cast in Proleague in addition to being in dual starleagues, whereas GSL is pretty much the only tournament that Korean Sc2 progamers focus on (GSTL isn't exactly comparable to Proleague).
Come on kt may be weak but you don't have to put us in a position where we should be call "shitty " T_T , although I wanted to response to his statement however your explanation was much superior than mine..
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On December 02 2011 01:59 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:56 Condor Hero wrote:On December 02 2011 01:47 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random. Broodwar:Last 5 OSL titles: Flash 3 Jaedong 1 Hydra 1 Last 5 MSL titles: Flash 2 Effort 1 Fantasy 1 JangBi 1 StarCraft 2Last 10 GSL titles: MMA 1 MVP 3 NesTea 3 Polt 1 MC 2 Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2) GSL isn't comparable to MSL or OSL. Let's just start with the length of each league: when you win 3 MSLs, that's displaying dominance over an entire year. when you win 3 GSLs, that's displaying dominance over 3 months~. Therefore just by length of each tournament a GSL title doesn't say the same thing as an MSL or OSL title. Flash still has to carry his shitty supporting cast in Proleague in addition to being in dual starleagues, whereas GSL is pretty much the only tournament that Korean Sc2 progamers focus on (GSTL isn't exactly comparable to Proleague). Come on kt may be weak but you don't have to put us in a position where we should be call "shitty " T_T , although I wanted to response to his statement however your explanation was much superior than mine..
Nah KT is looking pretty good now but the OSLs and MSLs he mentioned when Flash started winning again, KT was pretty garbage back then. Stats wasn't as solid as he is now and they didn't have Action.
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On December 02 2011 01:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random. Broodwar:Last 5 OSL titles: Flash 3 Jaedong 1 Hydra 1 Last 5 MSL titles: Flash 2 Effort 1 Fantasy 1 JangBi 1 StarCraft 2Last 10 GSL titles: MMA 1 MVP 3 NesTea 3 Polt 1 MC 2 Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2)
agree with u. but u mix up the titles :D
Hydra nad jaedong won MSL.
effort jangbi fantasy and stork won OSL 
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On November 30 2011 15:32 BlackMagister wrote:
To me as a spectator the biggest problem I have with SC2 is that the units all take more supply than BW so the battles are smaller or more concentrated. Granted some of these units work differently, but...
BW-SC2
Siege tanks 2- 3
Medic/vac-1- 2
Infantry 1- 1 or 2
Hydra 1-2
Reaver/Collosus 4-6
etc.
So while players did trade supply armies it wasn't always because they had reached 200 supply and had nothing better to do with their army they could trade at lower supply values mainly. Also more units to control the map which is part of the reason BW can be played on large maps and still be exciting. Still find SC2 interesting to watch though.
I don't have much experience with Broodwar as I came to the scene recently but I have to say that I do agree with this. From what I have seen of the small ammount of Broodwar games I have watched is an early skirmish in that game (60-80 supply) can look like a big 150-200 supply SC2 battle. I think that the supply of some units do need to be lowered and it would add a lot more to the game than just 'more units' as it would also increase the need for more stratergy. A map like taldarim alter, i'd love to see a huge split map situation, or even a really long seige line but the size of the map and the number of units just doesn't add up. Even a 200/200 battle on that map can look really small amd pathetic and it is a rather large map so I think all that space is gone to waste.
I'm imagining a 200/200 battle on a map like Daybreak where armies are engaging in every choke and avenue and not just one big battle in the middle.
I guess what I am trying to say is more unit numbers will help stratergy as well as mechanics/macro whatever blossom more.
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This thread needs a bump
![[image loading]](http://files.myopera.com/TMinhNguyen90/albums/1865931/ForGG.jpg)
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That look..... so dominant
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No surprise that this got bumped...
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On December 02 2011 02:25 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:59 Sawamura wrote:On December 02 2011 01:56 Condor Hero wrote:On December 02 2011 01:47 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 01:14 Squeegy wrote:On December 01 2011 21:08 rEalGuapo wrote:
Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this. You're just stupid. Pretty much everything you have said has already been refuted many times in the duration of this thread. Of course it is totally irrelevant whether I was there to watch it but nice try. I can pick another example too though: Michael Schumacher and Ferrari. Some of the greatest times in F1. And yes, I was there to watch it. Of course I agree that complete dominance over a long period of time may not be the most exciting times for a sport. But, luckily, that is rarely the case. Often the high points for a sport are when there are two athletes competing for the crown. Kind of like... Jaedong and Flash. See what I did there? And when somebody finally emerges as the king, then it'll be exciting to wait for that up and coming talent that will challenge them and finally beat them. In sense sports are rather cyclical. And the way SC2 is currently, where it seems that basically anybody can win a tournament, makes it feel just quite random. Broodwar:Last 5 OSL titles: Flash 3 Jaedong 1 Hydra 1 Last 5 MSL titles: Flash 2 Effort 1 Fantasy 1 JangBi 1 StarCraft 2Last 10 GSL titles: MMA 1 MVP 3 NesTea 3 Polt 1 MC 2 Doesn't look soooo much more random in my eyes. (Flash dominating BW, NesTea+MVP dominating SC2) GSL isn't comparable to MSL or OSL. Let's just start with the length of each league: when you win 3 MSLs, that's displaying dominance over an entire year. when you win 3 GSLs, that's displaying dominance over 3 months~. Therefore just by length of each tournament a GSL title doesn't say the same thing as an MSL or OSL title. Flash still has to carry his shitty supporting cast in Proleague in addition to being in dual starleagues, whereas GSL is pretty much the only tournament that Korean Sc2 progamers focus on (GSTL isn't exactly comparable to Proleague). Come on kt may be weak but you don't have to put us in a position where we should be call "shitty " T_T , although I wanted to response to his statement however your explanation was much superior than mine.. Nah KT is looking pretty good now but the OSLs and MSLs he mentioned when Flash started winning again, KT was pretty garbage back then. Stats wasn't as solid as he is now and they didn't have Action.
You are aware that Action sucks, right?
KT is struggling back in a Bo5 format. They did well late last year by playing Flash, Stats, and 4 zergs, hoping they got ZvZs and ZvPs, and relying on Flash to take Ace matches. Now, Flash and Stats are still solid, but Flash is only good for one win per match, and their crappy zerg line is having trouble getting good matchups since every team is so stacked. Unless Mind really steps up his game, or either Barracks or Perfective start to get good, KT is going to have a tough time this year.
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I still want to see ForGG against someone who is actually good right now. Like MMA/Neaste, before i make any judgement calls.
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Can ForGG fans leave it in his fanclub? Bumping for the sake of bumping everytime ForGG plays is almost the only remaining point of this thread...
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EPT
