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On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated.
It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise.
Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash.
If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often.
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On December 01 2011 12:35 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:32 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:20 Kiarip wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Well this isnt true. Flash was beatable even when he was playing very well. Well then people probably need to hype a little less then, huh? Saying he's orders of magnitudes better than the next best thing (or that he and his two buddies are) is effectively suggesting we would have a very small pool of talented players, and everyone else would be fighting for fourth place, which isn't particularly exciting. Now, if there's actually competition there, then, sure, the competition would be marginally improved by their introduction. However, as I've mentioned, there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and quality of game. As skill gets greater and greater, the quality of the games seems to begin to even out (this is a difficult one to support with data, so I won't argue it too much). I welcome the inclusion of better play into the scene, I just want it to be reasonable, and not create a disparity in skill level that makes it so that most matches aren't worth watching. I also really don't want to see players kill themselves practicing far more than they have to right now. Even professional athletes don't put in as much work as what the original post (or some poster) has described of Flashes effort. As admirable as it is, it's just not fair to force other players to put in that much effort to compete, they'll kill themselves, literally. He's worth the hype. Just because he's leagues over most of his counterparts doesn't mean that he's infallible, of course. The only BW vods I ever youtubed were his, Jaedong's and Bisu's. Maybe it's me being naive, but I have this perception that there are under 10 BW players who have a chance of winning a series against him.
That's bad, not good. There are more than 10 players who can win a series against MVP, or NesTea or Leenock, etc.. that's parity, it's exciting. It's a good thing. Why should we want someone that only a handful of people can beat?
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On December 01 2011 12:43 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:35 Oktyabr wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:20 Kiarip wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Well this isnt true. Flash was beatable even when he was playing very well. Well then people probably need to hype a little less then, huh? Saying he's orders of magnitudes better than the next best thing (or that he and his two buddies are) is effectively suggesting we would have a very small pool of talented players, and everyone else would be fighting for fourth place, which isn't particularly exciting. Now, if there's actually competition there, then, sure, the competition would be marginally improved by their introduction. However, as I've mentioned, there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and quality of game. As skill gets greater and greater, the quality of the games seems to begin to even out (this is a difficult one to support with data, so I won't argue it too much). I welcome the inclusion of better play into the scene, I just want it to be reasonable, and not create a disparity in skill level that makes it so that most matches aren't worth watching. I also really don't want to see players kill themselves practicing far more than they have to right now. Even professional athletes don't put in as much work as what the original post (or some poster) has described of Flashes effort. As admirable as it is, it's just not fair to force other players to put in that much effort to compete, they'll kill themselves, literally. He's worth the hype. Just because he's leagues over most of his counterparts doesn't mean that he's infallible, of course. The only BW vods I ever youtubed were his, Jaedong's and Bisu's. Maybe it's me being naive, but I have this perception that there are under 10 BW players who have a chance of winning a series against him. That's bad, not good. There are more than 10 players who can win a series against MVP, or NesTea or Leenock, etc.. that's parity, it's exciting. It's a good thing. Why should we want someone that only a handful of people can beat?
How is it bad when a game rewards a good player for being better than the rest of the competition? Nobody thought the NBA sucked when the Bulls were dominating in the 90s.
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On December 01 2011 12:43 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:35 Oktyabr wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:20 Kiarip wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Well this isnt true. Flash was beatable even when he was playing very well. Well then people probably need to hype a little less then, huh? Saying he's orders of magnitudes better than the next best thing (or that he and his two buddies are) is effectively suggesting we would have a very small pool of talented players, and everyone else would be fighting for fourth place, which isn't particularly exciting. Now, if there's actually competition there, then, sure, the competition would be marginally improved by their introduction. However, as I've mentioned, there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and quality of game. As skill gets greater and greater, the quality of the games seems to begin to even out (this is a difficult one to support with data, so I won't argue it too much). I welcome the inclusion of better play into the scene, I just want it to be reasonable, and not create a disparity in skill level that makes it so that most matches aren't worth watching. I also really don't want to see players kill themselves practicing far more than they have to right now. Even professional athletes don't put in as much work as what the original post (or some poster) has described of Flashes effort. As admirable as it is, it's just not fair to force other players to put in that much effort to compete, they'll kill themselves, literally. He's worth the hype. Just because he's leagues over most of his counterparts doesn't mean that he's infallible, of course. The only BW vods I ever youtubed were his, Jaedong's and Bisu's. Maybe it's me being naive, but I have this perception that there are under 10 BW players who have a chance of winning a series against him. That's bad, not good. There are more than 10 players who can win a series against MVP, or NesTea or Leenock, etc.. that's parity, it's exciting. It's a good thing. Why should we want someone that only a handful of people can beat?
Because domination is very enthralling in every instance of sports history? It's good story telling, and chances are some nobody will dethrone him because nobody can stay on top forever, that's a fact. No player can remain that dominant over the entire length of the game's existence. That's how exciting rivalries are generated, and that's what makes the game so interesting to follow. Will Flash remain dominant in BW? Probably, because BW has a much smaller influx of players and hence reducing the likelihood that a nobody (as of now) will spring up. Will Flash be dominant in SC2? Yes, but probably not for the entire duration of the game's lifespan.
Flash switching over would not be realistic for the foreseeable future anyway. If he does, it's great. If he doesn't, it's not important either. What we have now is still fairly entertaining.
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Better players switching over can only mean good things. I don't see how you guys are missing that point.
Seriously, you'll see what all of us "BW elitists" mean when it happens.
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On December 01 2011 12:43 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:35 Oktyabr wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:20 Kiarip wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Well this isnt true. Flash was beatable even when he was playing very well. Well then people probably need to hype a little less then, huh? Saying he's orders of magnitudes better than the next best thing (or that he and his two buddies are) is effectively suggesting we would have a very small pool of talented players, and everyone else would be fighting for fourth place, which isn't particularly exciting. Now, if there's actually competition there, then, sure, the competition would be marginally improved by their introduction. However, as I've mentioned, there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and quality of game. As skill gets greater and greater, the quality of the games seems to begin to even out (this is a difficult one to support with data, so I won't argue it too much). I welcome the inclusion of better play into the scene, I just want it to be reasonable, and not create a disparity in skill level that makes it so that most matches aren't worth watching. I also really don't want to see players kill themselves practicing far more than they have to right now. Even professional athletes don't put in as much work as what the original post (or some poster) has described of Flashes effort. As admirable as it is, it's just not fair to force other players to put in that much effort to compete, they'll kill themselves, literally. He's worth the hype. Just because he's leagues over most of his counterparts doesn't mean that he's infallible, of course. The only BW vods I ever youtubed were his, Jaedong's and Bisu's. Maybe it's me being naive, but I have this perception that there are under 10 BW players who have a chance of winning a series against him. That's bad, not good. There are more than 10 players who can win a series against MVP, or NesTea or Leenock, etc.. that's parity, it's exciting. It's a good thing. Why should we want someone that only a handful of people can beat?
We want evidence of the depth of SC2. If we see all of the best players hitting some kind of skill ceiling where nobody can rise above and become untouchable, that's no fun. The existence of bonjwas proves the depth of skill available to an ESPORT, and we don't have one yet in SC2.
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On December 01 2011 11:34 Chamenas wrote:
Uh, I never get excited watching any clips from Broodwar games, they're not terribly interesting to me to watch... so I'm not sure where this "easier for the casual observer" is coming from?
Cause BW is played on national tv and viewed by a variety of age group/genders, a large subset who've never played a game of BW in their lives. This does not exist for any other "esport" titles.
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On December 01 2011 12:55 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:43 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:35 Oktyabr wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:20 Kiarip wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Well this isnt true. Flash was beatable even when he was playing very well. Well then people probably need to hype a little less then, huh? Saying he's orders of magnitudes better than the next best thing (or that he and his two buddies are) is effectively suggesting we would have a very small pool of talented players, and everyone else would be fighting for fourth place, which isn't particularly exciting. Now, if there's actually competition there, then, sure, the competition would be marginally improved by their introduction. However, as I've mentioned, there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and quality of game. As skill gets greater and greater, the quality of the games seems to begin to even out (this is a difficult one to support with data, so I won't argue it too much). I welcome the inclusion of better play into the scene, I just want it to be reasonable, and not create a disparity in skill level that makes it so that most matches aren't worth watching. I also really don't want to see players kill themselves practicing far more than they have to right now. Even professional athletes don't put in as much work as what the original post (or some poster) has described of Flashes effort. As admirable as it is, it's just not fair to force other players to put in that much effort to compete, they'll kill themselves, literally. He's worth the hype. Just because he's leagues over most of his counterparts doesn't mean that he's infallible, of course. The only BW vods I ever youtubed were his, Jaedong's and Bisu's. Maybe it's me being naive, but I have this perception that there are under 10 BW players who have a chance of winning a series against him. That's bad, not good. There are more than 10 players who can win a series against MVP, or NesTea or Leenock, etc.. that's parity, it's exciting. It's a good thing. Why should we want someone that only a handful of people can beat? We want evidence of the depth of SC2. If we see all of the best players hitting some kind of skill ceiling where nobody can rise above and become untouchable, that's no fun. The existence of bonjwas proves the depth of skill available to an ESPORT, and we don't have one yet in SC2.
Players like Tiger Woods, and Michael Jordan all catapulted their sports to another level. But I think that player also needs to bring an air and playstyle about them that can capture a lot of fans in the same way Boxer did.
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United States7639 Posts
On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often.
You know, looking at your other responses, it seems what you want is for either everyone to be bad, with no standout players, or everyone to be equally good. That's ridiculously naive, and never going to happen. SOMEONE is always going to be better than the rest. In a game where skill disparity exists, someone people are going to dominate. And how is such a system even bad? Just as there is one godlike player who reigns, there will be those who rise to challenge him. Maybe Savior crushing everyone for 2 years would be boring to you, but hey, it's not like there wasn't a Bisu to come and dethrone him. March 3rd was a revolution that people have remembered and will remember for years to come. Such a single truly significant moment is far better than many many trivial ones.
I don't see how balance in the scene is inherently interesting to watch. I would rather watch TBLS duke it out all day, just the four of them, than watch a hundred other mediocre players compete. Just because you know that every single game between them is going to be fantastic, a display of utmost skill and wit and strategy. It's never a one-sided domination by any one of them either, like you're suggesting. This year, Jaedong is 4-1 against Flash, while Bisu is 3-1 over Jaedong, Stork is 4-0 against Bisu, and Flash is 2-1 over Stork. They're all highly capable of taking games off of each other, and every one of their games is miles more interesting and exciting than the average non-TBLS game. I can't believe you're suggesting that there's something better than watching the best of the best show everyone else (or each other) what skill is.
Besides, what can you do about it? If Flash does decide to switch someday, would you say, "No, you can't, because you're too good and everyone else sucks too much to beat you so you're killing e-sports."
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Think NFL guys, the NFL strives for every team to be competitive, not once has a team won 3 superbowls in a row, for example. Only twice has a team gone undefeated, and won went on to choke at the end.
Starcraft doesn't need a single dominating performer, it needs to be competitive, foreigners need to compete with Koreans at least until the final expansion is released, or Starcraft 2 just won't grow as much as it needs to.
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So Foreigners should cut the "i want 2 study and still be a progamer" and actually go fulltime pro and then play fulltime pro and dont go like "oh we need this many hours 2 do somethign else".
if the koreans play 10hours or more. you play 10 hours or more otherwise u lose in the long run.
so much "oh we need foreigners" u rlly like a game more becuase some non korean is playing it? even tho he might play way worse?.
and Flash is dominating doesnt mean people like classic. and the other low tier Terran cant kick him out of OSL.
He has a 70% winrate overall. he is favoured vs everyone but pretty much any A teamer can take him down. mb not in a Bo5 but the ycna take him down in proleague.
and in Bo5 there are moe then just 10 people that could take him down.
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ups sry.. browser lagged.
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On December 01 2011 13:32 Happylime wrote:
Think NFL guys, the NFL strives for every team to be competitive, not once has a team won 3 superbowls in a row, for example. Only twice has a team gone undefeated, and won went on to choke at the end.
Starcraft doesn't need a single dominating performer, it needs to be competitive, foreigners need to compete with Koreans at least until the final expansion is released, or Starcraft 2 just won't grow as much as it needs to.
That's because you don't pick favorite teams off their "teamwork" and their playstyle. Imagine if every god damn quarterback/runningback/wide receiver were as skilled as the next. Shit gets boring fast. But people WANT standout players. It's not an equivalent analogy because the right analogy is that people want standout players, but people don't cheer for dominating teams in starcraft team leagues either.
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On December 01 2011 13:32 Happylime wrote:
Think NFL guys, the NFL strives for every team to be competitive, not once has a team won 3 superbowls in a row, for example. Only twice has a team gone undefeated, and won went on to choke at the end.
Starcraft doesn't need a single dominating performer, it needs to be competitive, foreigners need to compete with Koreans at least until the final expansion is released, or Starcraft 2 just won't grow as much as it needs to.
I actually think foreigners will still be competitive even if all the BW A teamers switch over. (As long as they keep training in Korea)
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On December 01 2011 13:13 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often. You know, looking at your other responses, it seems what you want is for either everyone to be bad, with no standout players, or everyone to be equally good. That's ridiculously naive, and never going to happen. SOMEONE is always going to be better than the rest. In a game where skill disparity exists, someone people are going to dominate. And how is such a system even bad? Just as there is one godlike player who reigns, there will be those who rise to challenge him. Maybe Savior crushing everyone for 2 years would be boring to you, but hey, it's not like there wasn't a Bisu to come and dethrone him. March 3rd was a revolution that people have remembered and will remember for years to come. Such a single truly significant moment is far better than many many trivial ones. I don't see how balance in the scene is inherently interesting to watch. I would rather watch TBLS duke it out all day, just the four of them, than watch a hundred other mediocre players compete. Just because you know that every single game between them is going to be fantastic, a display of utmost skill and wit and strategy. It's never a one-sided domination by any one of them either, like you're suggesting. This year, Jaedong is 4-1 against Flash, while Bisu is 3-1 over Jaedong, Stork is 4-0 against Bisu, and Flash is 2-1 over Stork. They're all highly capable of taking games off of each other, and every one of their games is miles more interesting and exciting than the average non-TBLS game. I can't believe you're suggesting that there's something better than watching the best of the best show everyone else (or each other) what skill is. Besides, what can you do about it? If Flash does decide to switch someday, would you say, "No, you can't, because you're too good and everyone else sucks too much to beat you so you're killing e-sports."
Besides, it would make the idea of competition absurd. Player-wise it's nothing you can control in a sensible way, despite of mentioned "banning" them from entering- which would be ridiculous. On the other hand there is in fact one only measure to regulate such dominance: game mechanics, or to be precise the amount of volatility you allow. I would doubt anyone welcoming that either. Fearing such dominance seems to me much too defeatist. There's plenty of apparent "dead-ends" to be observed in every corner of life, and yet ambition appears to outweigh the odds. It is what creates change.
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United States509 Posts
On December 01 2011 13:02 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 11:34 Chamenas wrote:
Uh, I never get excited watching any clips from Broodwar games, they're not terribly interesting to me to watch... so I'm not sure where this "easier for the casual observer" is coming from? Cause BW is played on national tv and viewed by a variety of age group/genders, a large subset who've never played a game of BW in their lives. This does not exist for any other "esport" titles.
haha they've probably played before just they don't play it routinely or often at all.
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On December 01 2011 14:04 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 13:02 wassbix wrote:On December 01 2011 11:34 Chamenas wrote:
Uh, I never get excited watching any clips from Broodwar games, they're not terribly interesting to me to watch... so I'm not sure where this "easier for the casual observer" is coming from? Cause BW is played on national tv and viewed by a variety of age group/genders, a large subset who've never played a game of BW in their lives. This does not exist for any other "esport" titles. haha they've probably played before just they don't play it routinely or often at all.
Hahaha yea tell that to Bisu's baby-girl fan..
Honestly though, it was hilarious to see some guy earlier in the thread say that a game where anyone can beat anyone else = a good game, and dominance, on the other hand, makes the game boring. Scissor-Paper-Stone HAS to be the best e-Sport of all time then, since i probably have a decent chance of beating the world's best in a BoX series, and then some little kid have a decent chance of beating me as well.. Wowww..
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On December 01 2011 12:41 Chamenas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:33 Kiett wrote:On December 01 2011 12:19 Chamenas wrote:
Every description I've read of the Flash situation is that no one else is anywhere near his level.
Yes, if a bunch of high-level BW players switched over, it could be exciting. But if any one person achieves the seemingly mystical Flashesque dominance, the scene will become very much less interesting than it is now.
There are, of course, other arguments for why BW Pros might not spice up the scene that much, but I don't want to get into them, I'd love to see that. What I don't want to see is one or two players absolutely dominating and no one else coming even close. At least, if they ARE dominating, it should be for short periods, and it should not be the way that every tournament or game ends up, there should still be a majority of equal skill players playing one another. Flash is a monster, but he's not completely infallible. But I'd say that his reputation for utter dominance actually brings a whole new level of excitement for whenever he's defeated by the underdog. Effort reverse sweeping Flash in the finals of Korean Air S1 '10? Or Jangbi rising up to beat Flash twice in a row after being down a game in the semis of Jin Air '11? Those were incredibly significant and memorable series. Having a player of this caliber, one who sets that standard of "God," just makes the ones who beat him even more amazing and celebrated. It makes those moments exciting, but, at what cost? How long do we have to wait for those moments to appear? There's a reason I don't watch Baseball, because I only find a select few rare moments exciting, the rest of it is all fluff. What we shouldn't want is a scene where the only excitement that is generated is when a player that absolutely dominates is, on a rare occasion, beaten. That's not excitement, is a contrived excitement that happens occasionally and is boring otherwise. Oh look, Flash wins. He wins again. Oh look, it's Flash dominating again. Oh look, he wins again. Utterly destroyed opponent. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. Flash. OH YAY, SOMEONE BEAT FLASH. Oh look, Flash again. Flash again. Flash. Flash. Flash. If that's what you want and find exciting, then I suppose we're at an impasse, and we'd have to gauge the community to see what they really want. But I know that I'd personally prefer occasional dominance shifted by true parity with a range of exciting players shifting the scene often.
Yeah, I thought Muhammed Ali made boxing really boring as well. And the viewers agree. Oh wait? Examples like this can be found in pretty much any sports. So, you're pretty much in the minority.
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Overall I think this article is being taken way to serious.
And I also don't really understand the point, is it to bash on NesTea and MC!?
Is the point to tell us that the best BW players except Boxer and NaDa would be unstoppable for some odd reason?
Is it to show us that SC2 eSport sucks and we should all focus on BW?
Is it to hype for those BW players, even though he basically said that the top players DO NOT BY DEFAULT have more succes than others?
I just don't understand why it says that only NaDa and Boxer are real good BW players that play SC2 and the rest sux, then it says that the worse players accomplish more than the semi-gods, as a direct result, the missing semi-gods should destroy everything.
Am I just stupid or does that not make sense AT ALL!?
Maybe, just maybe SC2 is not SC1 and maybe, just maybe you need a different set of skills, therefore players like NesTea simply _are_ top starcraft 2 players even though they were not as good(compared to the remaining players) in BW.
It might be possible that flash kills everyone in after half a year of practice, but I would not count on it, it can very well be that it will take him a long time to adjust, since he has the BW way of game deep in his brain and needs to override it.
I think it is not as black and white as most people want to make it look.
So yes, it is great to have some outstanding figures like flash, no doubt, but if he were to win every tournament he plays in for more than half a year I would stop watching those, or at least only follow HuKs journey.
Furthermore, I hate those comparisons of SC2 to SC1. How long has there been professionals playing broodwar? How long do professionals play SC2? Guess what, it will take something like 2 or 3 years after legacy of the void untill you can start winning only with superior gameplay, you need to have experienced everything there is to do so. Today, there is a new patch every couple of weeks, completely changing gameplay. New maps rise and fall every day. Tournaments use a fast variety of different maps and different versions of the same maps. As long as those things are not stabilised I doubt that Flash ever had a chance of becoming something even close to unbeatable.
P.S.
Everyone is talking about how it is a good thing if someone is unbeatabe because it happens all the time in sports.
Well, go watch boxing now. It IS boring, no fight is close, no opponent stands a chance against the klitschkos.. Sure you can talk about how Ali was awesome and how exciting it was, have you actually followed boxing at his time!?
I don't know the exact number but I think there are very few 60 year old boxing fans commenting in this thread.
Edit: tried to put some structure in it, failed a little bit but I don't want to put too much time in this.
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On December 01 2011 13:02 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 11:34 Chamenas wrote:
Uh, I never get excited watching any clips from Broodwar games, they're not terribly interesting to me to watch... so I'm not sure where this "easier for the casual observer" is coming from? Cause BW is played on national tv and viewed by a variety of age group/genders, a large subset who've never played a game of BW in their lives. This does not exist for any other "esport" titles.
Except for being on national tv, all the other match with current SC2 scene so I don't see your point here.
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EPT
