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While this article makes some good points I don't see the need for the sensationalist tone the author employs.
Calling the competition in SC2 a farce is a bit unfair considering the game is only a year old, would you have called early SC1 competition a farce because the best Warcraft 2 players weren’t involved yet?
I also don’t get the whole elephant in the room title, saying there’s an elephant in the room is supposed to mean that there’s something present that people consciously avoid talking about. But the level of the respective top players, and speculation of how players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu would fare, has been talked about since the beta, it’s hardly an avoided issue.
Aside form those issues, yeah, the play and players in SC2 have some way to go to get to the level of the top BW players, but I believe it'll get there given time and the two expansions.
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i think the tone of the author is necessary to address the overhype that sc2 has had some of ( listening to people call beta sc2 or older sc2 "amazing play"), and to note that the level of play of sc2 has a long way to go before it can match the level of its predecessor. While it does state the obvious, that SC2 is not nearly as good as it can be right now, it states this thusly because no one else has said it, yet it is a lingering thought. Saying "yeah, that's obvious why say it" is a logical fallacy when no one has really discussed it in depth, other than lingering complaints from old BW pros or random comments.
I think something to take from this thread, other than blind rage at BW, is to note that SC2 has a loooot of room to grow. and for the stars and programers of today to succeed, they need to match that growth and improve as gamers. Or they will be left behind, or worse, sc2 will not succeed to the level of BW, both in monetary success and strategical development, which I think we all wish to happen.
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On May 15 2011 20:06 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 22:28 floor exercise wrote:On May 14 2011 21:20 Legatus Lanius wrote:
ugh, im watching the gsl finals vods on gomtv and i noticed that sc2 finals have kpop too ><
NO GAME IS SAFE GSL finals are basically kpop concerts followed by a sc2 bo7 What made me a bit sad was after the kpop quite some people stood up and left...
+ Show Spoiler +By the time the K-Pop show was half-over they had already had their fill of DT rushs.
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They're coming , and we'll be here ....waiting for them ;-)
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Most important part of the article
My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start.
Anyone knows the list of progamers names which are available for free agency this coming Aug??? Would be interesting to analize those names
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On May 15 2011 19:30 Darkong wrote:
While this article makes some good points I don't see the need for the sensationalist tone the author employs.
Calling the competition in SC2 a farce is a bit unfair considering the game is only a year old, would you have called early SC1 competition a farce because the best Warcraft 2 players weren’t involved yet?
I also don’t get the whole elephant in the room title, saying there’s an elephant in the room is supposed to mean that there’s something present that people consciously avoid talking about. But the level of the respective top players, and speculation of how players like Jaedong, Flash and Bisu would fare, has been talked about since the beta, it’s hardly an avoided issue.
Aside form those issues, yeah, the play and players in SC2 have some way to go to get to the level of the top BW players, but I believe it'll get there given time and the two expansions.
The difference between SC when it was released and SC2 is that SC2 reaps the benefits of having a proscene established before its release. There was no proscene for WC2, people didn't know how to play RTS games like they do today. It is simply not comparable.
Looking at how clueless some people are, it seems to me that whether it has been discussed or not in the past, it still needs to be discussed.
It's not enough that people believe it'll get there. People actually have to start doing the work to get there. They have to start taking it as seriously as Koreans in BW do.
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On May 15 2011 13:07 rysecake wrote:
What I got from state of the game:
incontrol- this game won't be solved just like that if the gods switch over. Yes they will be absolutely amazing but flash to sc2 =/= solved game.
tyler- intrigue is just stating what he thinks should be the standard for sc2 games. Finds it motivating because Tyler realizes sc2 play is no where near the level of sc1 play and that pros like him must step up their game.
idra- the statistics shown were a bit skewed, and these "top sc2 players" were not actually as bad at bw as this article makes it sound. Sc1 success doesn't directly translate to sc2 success, and until someone like Flash or Jaedong switches over, we won't see that sort of domination (note he agrees flash and jaedong would destroy this game, but doesn't say anything about the average a-teamer's possible success if they switched).
kennigit- alot of sc2 fans are morons thinking that people are "bw elitists" or they want to see e-sports fail. Thinks article was very informational, sometimes the wording was controversial, but overall cannot understand why this argument got so heated.
Yes I don't think the sc2 scene has been a farce. Seems a bit extreme to say so. Safe to say sc2 has not seen the highest level of play though. But these new players to the scene claiming people like Flash and Jaedong wouldn't DESTROY the competition clearly have never seen what they are capable of. It's silly.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/600_IdrA
His non-korean record for bw is quite impressive...alas he could not keep up with the big boys after joining Estro in Korea displaying a lousy 2:4 record.
Still, he'd be lying if he said that all his bw skills didn't immediately translate to goodness in sc2. Anyone that played a reasonable amount of bw and reached D+ on iccup will tell you that.
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Great Article intrigue !
But as much as I want flashdong to dominate all sc2 scene, Id love to see them arround BW some more years because its just such a fantastic game overall. their switch wont happen that soon either I think because the expansions for Sc2 and their balance changes will really take a while to kick in and establish an environment worth playin in.
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I keep coming back to this article. <3
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OK, I'll sum this up:
Article states: all BW a-teamers have the potential to be be monsters in SC2. Some decent BW pros left and each had varying success. Ironically though, perhaps the one in best form that left (Sangho) did the worst out of this bunch (though to be fair, him vs. Inca was a coin-toss series... sorry about the terribleTOTALLY AWESOME pun). Flash and Jaedong would rape the scene so hard that their opponents would end up in the fetal position in the corner of the booth sobbing (which is what usually happens in BW).
It's quite reasonable. BW pros have the hand-eye coordination, dedication and raw RTS talent to be at the top. Flash and Jaedong are not mortal, and do not play like mortals. Anyone who has seen them play should know that they would be capable of dominating any RTS given a while to learn the game.
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I wouldn't really say Sangho was the one in the best form that left. That's definitely MVP who had wins against top class players near the end of his BW career including Flash, Stork, Best, Jangbi, Snow and Baby (in a Bo3). And when judging Sangho, it's important to remember what actually caused his exit from BW rather than remembering his stats or records.
[Interview] Sangho on Match-Fixing
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I don't get why people are so upset at this article. It's like a well written article from a long paper with a tabloid title and opening (especially when he over sizes/bolds the farce statement to get attention)
When you say that MC saying Flash would do well if he switched to SC2 is face palm, so is kinda half this article. It still doesnt take away from it though because I agree with it same in the same way with MC's face palm comment.
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SC2 is not as developed as BW...nuff said.
players like Jaedong and Flash werent in the scene less than a year after BW was released, comparing these two games and these two scenes is stupid.
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I don't think SC skills in some points directly translate to SC2. A lot of the multi-tasking, speed, and such has been lessened in SC2 with the ability to queue up commands, set waypoints, and so on.
I think SC2 has been made more casual to the point that such a drastic gap can really exist.
Now, I know the general lack of using the queued up commands have existed by pros in the GSLs and many other tournaments (just look how many times you see a worker sitting idle after building something or so) at times, but with proper execution, you don't need the insane multasking needed in SC1. You can be absolutely perfect (no lost time) with all units without the insane APM.
One thing I could see happening when some pros coming over is their better decision making could eventually get to the point that protoss might be broken. Protoss has the ability to cut so many corners to get commanding leads due to the ability to warp in units. If you can't keep pressure on a protoss to force them to warp in units, it's going to be very difficult to compete with.
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the way sc2 pros practice is a joke. Whether or not flash or jaedong would dominate is irrelevant. When someone comes in who trains like they do (and has the right talent set) they will begin to dominate the leagues (until more people begin to train like them).
This article says more about how bad sc2 players are then how good BW pros are. (that being said, anyone who thinks that jaedong and flash would not come in and rape everyone are pretty fucking ignorant.)
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Mora, I don't necessarily think that is true, to be honest i wasn't a broodwar player, i come from the warcraft3 scene, and there the best players were in my opinion; grubby, tod, remind, moon, lyn, sky and infi, and after almost a year of starcraft 2, I'm seeing people like naniwa and thorzain become really really good, to the point im forgetting about the fifth race. Its unfair to rank players without having seen them perform.. really Naniwa was nothing special, neither was thorzain. New game new mechanics, new everything, its dumb to keep fighting over who is gonna be the next great player because in all fairness by all we know it might just be someone from an entirely different scene, or someone totally new. 
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The TSL3 finals really made me think about this article, as did the GSL May finals
+ Show Spoiler +Game 7: Naniwa is shutting down Thorzain's natural with colossi--gets a 40 supply lead. He could extend this lead by adding gates, teching, expanding, upgrading, w/e. Because if Thorzain tries to move out he can just crush his army and win...
Then he clusters his units together and rams them through the natural choke, letting them all die, all while floating 1.5K minerals, then never techs or upgrades all game, dying easily.
It literally looked like low-level Brood War play to me, he seemed to have little multitasking skill and no concept of how to transition from midgame to lategame.
And this guy is supposed to be the european sc2 bonjwa? Now I don't watch much sc2 at all, so I could be completely ignorant here, but I was not impressed at all with the quality of play in that and in the GSL finals that I watched a few days ago (Nestea literally does the same build 4 games in a row and makes Inca look like a noob.... 4 games in a row. In the most recent MSL finals in BW, great does the same build 2 games in a row.... and Hydra CHANGES his build to adapt to that and wins the second game despite losing the first. Honestly, it seemed to me from watching those games like Inca just doesn't understand the matchup or something, in which case how did he manage to get to the finals???
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To xxpack:
+ Show Spoiler +Naniwa choked in the seventh game. He showed far better play earlier in the finals, and in the series leading up to the finals. Naniwa is certainly capable of excellent mid to late game transitions and keeping his money down. Watch the game on Shakurus Plateau in the finals if you need proof of that.
Inca was terrible in ZvP. He got to the finals basically because GSL currently has a poor tournament structure that allows for flukes to occur.
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There's a second smaller elephant in the room, and it's why BW progamers aren't switching. If you guys haven't noticed, Korean companies are flat-out not sponsoring SC2. Sony, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Intel are all big names but none of them are Korean. All the big sponsors in Korea like Samsung, CJ, and the telecoms are throwing their money at BW and they're putting a lot more into it (when you consider salaries) than foreign companies are putting into SC2. SC2 won't be the dominant RTS in Korea as long as no Korean company is willing to sponsor it.
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EPT
