EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 164
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Kewlots
Australia534 Posts
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
I really think that everything that you are saying is true. SC2 does have pros, but not near the level of the pros that existed in BW, and SC2 still does not have what i would calll, Consistent solid players. I mean look at the TSL for instance, I never in a million years would have guessed the outcome, with so many great players losing so fast. I think it just shows how much sc2 is still changing. | ||
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Keone
United States812 Posts
Calm down and read the post properly. Let's try and stay civil and argue only the points, and not the word choices, of the author. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On May 20 2011 12:47 Keone wrote: I'm surprised. This article isn't actually saying much and people are going insane at the writer. Calm down and read the post properly. Let's try and stay civil and argue only the points, and not the word choices, of the author. Personally that is why I'd go insane at the writer: the fact he writes a whole bunch of nothing yet somehow attempts to arrive at a point — a poor one at that. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
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Kilby
Finland1069 Posts
Overall I find the OP kind of silly in the sense that it assumes that everyone who is really good at BW would also be really good at SC2. That is really not the case. Eventhough both are RTS games, they are in fact different RTS games. BW will still be going on for a few years at least (maybe unfortunately so) so we will not be seeing the BW pros transition into SC2 anytime soon, but hopefully at least few semipros will convert, if only to show that simply having fast fingers and plenty of BW experience will not make you a SC2 pro. And just to make sure, I love BW and I have a huge respect for the people who can actually play the game well. In fact, I am longing for a new Flash, someone who has the sheer skill and expertise to beat everyone at SC2, again and again, no matter the odds. It's just that I don't really believe that if you can play BW really well that you'll automatically be a huge SC2 star. And because people are expecting that that would be the case, it is probably why Flash and Jaedong will not be transfering to SC2. | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On May 21 2011 06:54 Kilby wrote: Well, eventhough Flash is really really good at Starcraft BW, that actually means nothing in SC2. Of course he has a huge talent in BW and a huge fanbase but if he would actually transfer to SC2 right now, he would not be one of the best instantly, or even in few months. It is a different game. Just look at Tyler, who was simply the best foreign BW player. I would guess that it would take Flash many months to even be top50 and even after that, he would definitely not be as superior in SC2 as he is in BW. Overall I find the OP kind of silly in the sense that it assumes that everyone who is really good at BW would also be really good at SC2. That is really not the case. Eventhough both are RTS games, they are in fact different RTS games. BW will still be going on for a few years at least (maybe unfortunately so) so we will not be seeing the BW pros transition into SC2 anytime soon, but hopefully at least few semipros will convert, if only to show that simply having fast fingers and plenty of BW experience will not make you a SC2 pro. And just to make sure, I love BW and I have a huge respect for the people who can actually play the game well. In fact, I am longing for a new Flash, someone who has the sheer skill and expertise to beat everyone at SC2, again and again, no matter the odds. It's just that I don't really believe that if you can play BW really well that you'll automatically be a huge SC2 star. And because people are expecting that that would be the case, it is probably why Flash and Jaedong will not be transfering to SC2. You are completely missing the point... The POINT is that BW pro's put SO MUCH MORE into getting where they are, that compared to SC2 pro's, they make them look amateur. BW pro's and even semi-pro's put easily 2-3x more work every single day then the average SC2 pro... obviously there are those hardcore dedicated SC2 pro's that train like 15 hours a day, but they aren't as DOMINANT as they were in BW. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 21 2011 06:54 Kilby wrote: Well, eventhough Flash is really really good at Starcraft BW, that actually means nothing in SC2. Of course he has a huge talent in BW and a huge fanbase but if he would actually transfer to SC2 right now, he would not be one of the best instantly, or even in few months. It is a different game. Just look at Tyler, who was simply the best foreign BW player. I would guess that it would take Flash many months to even be top50 and even after that, he would definitely not be as superior in SC2 as he is in BW. Overall I find the OP kind of silly in the sense that it assumes that everyone who is really good at BW would also be really good at SC2. That is really not the case. Eventhough both are RTS games, they are in fact different RTS games. BW will still be going on for a few years at least (maybe unfortunately so) so we will not be seeing the BW pros transition into SC2 anytime soon, but hopefully at least few semipros will convert, if only to show that simply having fast fingers and plenty of BW experience will not make you a SC2 pro. And just to make sure, I love BW and I have a huge respect for the people who can actually play the game well. In fact, I am longing for a new Flash, someone who has the sheer skill and expertise to beat everyone at SC2, again and again, no matter the odds. It's just that I don't really believe that if you can play BW really well that you'll automatically be a huge SC2 star. And because people are expecting that that would be the case, it is probably why Flash and Jaedong will not be transfering to SC2. Well already all the BW "pros" are dominating Nony didn't have as many commitments back then iirc. As far as I can tell the amount of hours he invested per day in BW was a lot more than in SC2. | ||
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Noelani
55 Posts
It's not that it requires no practice or that it's easy to get to the top at all. You still have to have extremely good mechanics to compete in the first place, which right now really only a couple players with the absolute cleanest mechanics have achieved.. like MVP and IdrA. The difference is, in SC2, the smartest players win, like Nestea and Thorzain, rather than those with the best pure mechanical skill - and that's how it should be. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 21 2011 22:41 Noelani wrote: It was (actually still is) a major problem in broodwar that the game is so mechanically demanding. It has a terrible UI and unit AI. Just because SC2 has fixed these problems doesn't make it an "easier" game. It simply requires a different skillset. Instead of the top players being able to win purely on mechanics, you actually have to use *gasp* strategy, to win an RTS game. It's not that it requires no practice or that it's easy to get to the top at all. You still have to have extremely good mechanics to compete in the first place, which right now really only a couple players with the absolute cleanest mechanics have achieved.. like MVP and IdrA. The difference is, in SC2, the smartest players win, like Nestea and Thorzain, rather than those with the best pure mechanical skill - and that's how it should be. Are you inferring that proBW require less strategic depth? What a joke. | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 21 2011 22:41 Noelani wrote: It was (actually still is) a major problem in broodwar that the game is so mechanically demanding. It has a terrible UI and unit AI. Just because SC2 has fixed these problems doesn't make it an "easier" game. It simply requires a different skillset. Instead of the top players being able to win purely on mechanics, you actually have to use *gasp* strategy, to win an RTS game. It's not that it requires no practice or that it's easy to get to the top at all. You still have to have extremely good mechanics to compete in the first place, which right now really only a couple players with the absolute cleanest mechanics have achieved.. like MVP and IdrA. The difference is, in SC2, the smartest players win, like Nestea and Thorzain, rather than those with the best pure mechanical skill - and that's how it should be. You are pretty clueless if you believe that there is no strategy in BW. The game is 13 years old and is still evolving in terms of strategy. There is not less strategy in BW than in SC2, its just more mechanics on top of it. In BW, players with the combination of great mechanics and a brilliant mind win. Its unbelievable that so many SC2 players think that less mechanics automatically means more strategy. It just means less mechanics, period. | ||
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Clog
United States950 Posts
I'm sure those top BW pros would do very well in SC2, but kinda pointless to discuss it if they don't switch. Even if SC2 is less difficult than BW, it's still enjoyable to watch and is still mentally and technically demanding | ||
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Noelani
55 Posts
On May 22 2011 03:05 gn0m wrote: You are pretty clueless if you believe that there is no strategy in BW. The game is 13 years old and is still evolving in terms of strategy. There is not less strategy in BW than in SC2, its just more mechanics on top of it. In BW, players with the combination of great mechanics and a brilliant mind win. Its unbelievable that so many SC2 players think that less mechanics automatically means more strategy. It just means less mechanics, period. It isn't that broodwar requires less strategy in an absolute sense. That would be impossible to prove either way. It's that in a practical sense, broodwar requires less strategy because of the mechanical demands. A high ranked professional player can do literally anything and win just on mechanics against a random high ranking ladder player for example. A great demonstration of this is TL attack featuring Sea where he goofs off and nukes some of the better foreign players. In SC2 a professional player can very easily lose to randoms on the ladder, partly because the game is young and not properly balanced yet and aggression in general is too powerful, but also partly because their superior mechanics can't set them apart as they could in broodwar. | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 22 2011 04:40 Noelani wrote: It isn't that broodwar requires less strategy in an absolute sense. That would be impossible to prove either way. It's that in a practical sense, broodwar requires less strategy because of the mechanical demands. A high ranked professional player can do literally anything and win just on mechanics against a random high ranking ladder player for example. A great demonstration of this is TL attack featuring Sea where he goofs off and nukes some of the better foreign players. In SC2 a professional player can very easily lose to randoms on the ladder, partly because the game is young and not properly balanced yet and aggression in general is too powerful, but also partly because their superior mechanics can't set them apart as they could in broodwar. Yes, Korean progamers can easily destroy random iCCup players due to the sheer difference in mechanics and I dont see a problem with that. But as you may know, competitive BW is not about progamers vs. amateurs. On a higher level everyone have good mechanics (although, there are differences there as well) and strategy is an essential part of the game. You display a very poor understanding of BW by saying “Instead of the top players being able to win purely on mechanics, you actually have to use *gasp* strategy, to win an RTS game.” The argument that SC2 requires a “totally different skillset” is therefore false. The point of the OP is that BW players have the necessary tools to do well in SC2; dedication, mechanics, good decision-making and a strategic thinking. The fact that terrible players that made the switch are performing well proofs that much of the skill can be translated between the games. | ||
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forSeohyun
504 Posts
On May 22 2011 05:49 gn0m wrote: Yes, Korean progamers can easily destroy random iCCup players due to the sheer difference in mechanics and I dont see a problem with that. But as you may know, competitive BW is not about progamers vs. amateurs. On a higher level everyone have good mechanics (although, there are differences there as well) and strategy is an essential part of the game. You display a very poor understanding of BW by saying “Instead of the top players being able to win purely on mechanics, you actually have to use *gasp* strategy, to win an RTS game.” The argument that SC2 requires a “totally different skillset” is therefore false. The point of the OP is that BW players have the necessary tools to do well in SC2; dedication, mechanics, good decision-making and a strategic thinking. The fact that terrible players that made the switch are performing well proofs that much of the skill can be translated between the games. But how do you explain the fact that, internally and statistically, for switching brood war-players there seems to be almost no correlation between being a better BW-player and being a better SC2-player? There seems to me that certain BW-players are favoured by the switch more than other, and that is a small indication that the skill set is different, at least in the sense that relatively different skills matter more than other. (Saying that BW has no strategy seems unfair, but maybe the emphasize of strategy in SC2 has led to that different players shine. This is only speculation.) | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On May 21 2011 06:54 Kilby wrote: Well, eventhough Flash is really really good at Starcraft BW, that actually means nothing in SC2. Of course he has a huge talent in BW and a huge fanbase but if he would actually transfer to SC2 right now, he would not be one of the best instantly, or even in few months. It is a different game. Just look at Tyler, who was simply the best foreign BW player. Why look at Tyler who just doesn't put too much effort in SC2 (for a progamer level) instead of Idra who pretty much retained his practice regime from BW? Tyler isn't doing poorly because "it's a different game", he's doing poorly because he doesn't train hard enough for SC2. Idra on the other may have periods of weakness, but can still dominate any foreigner and many Koreans (except for those that were better than him in BW). | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 22 2011 06:23 StatorFlux wrote: But how do you explain the fact that, internally and statistically, for switching brood war-players there seems to be almost no correlation between being a better BW-player and being a better SC2-player? There seems to me that certain BW-players are favoured by the switch more than other, and that is a small indication that the skill set is different, at least in the sense that relatively different skills matter more than other. (Saying that BW has no strategy seems unfair, but maybe the emphasize of strategy in SC2 has led to that different players shine. This is only speculation.) This is actually a good point. I think that it is possible that the OP exaggerates the level of dominance that S-class players would bring to the scene if they switched to SC2. The level of return might be diminishing when transferring skill, if that makes any sense. But keep in mind that in a larger sense, i.e. not comparing the players internally, skill is transferable – SC2 is still dominated by former BW players. It is also possible that the lack of a precise correlation between success in BW and SC2 can be explained by other factors, such as a lazy practice schedule etc. For instance, Guemchi (A-teamer who switched to SC2 and then back to BW) complained about how the practice wasnt strict enough. I don’t know enough about the motivation/amount of practice in the SC2 scene to answer this. Maybe you do? To sum up, I think you have point but I still cant see why players that are better than Zergbong in every aspect in BW wouldn’t do better than him in SC2. | ||
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Noelani
55 Posts
To sum up, I think you have point but I still cant see why players that are better than Zergbong in every aspect in BW wouldn’t do better than him in SC2. Because there's no one as smart as him at the game. The point I've been trying to make but apparently I don't express myself clearly enough is that with the improved UI and unit AI in starcraft 2 the winner of the game is determined more by strategy than mechanics. That's not to say that there is no strategy in broodwar... it's that unless you're watching Stork vs Flash or Jaedong vs Bisu, strategy takes a back seat because the better player just rapes the weaker player on mechanics. Thorzain winning the TSL could've never happened in broodwar. He played the best and smartest game of anyone in the tournament and definitely deserved to win, but I don't think anyone would try to argue that his mechanics are better than fruitdealer's or MC's or Naniwa's. In broodwar he would've just been stomped out by one of those strong mechanical players... essentially losing because of the poor UI. But in SC2, his genius and dedicated preparation paid off. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 22 2011 08:51 Noelani wrote: Because there's no one as smart as him at the game. The point I've been trying to make but apparently I don't express myself clearly enough is that with the improved UI and unit AI in starcraft 2 the winner of the game is determined more by strategy than mechanics. That's not to say that there is no strategy in broodwar... it's that unless you're watching Stork vs Flash or Jaedong vs Bisu, strategy takes a back seat because the better player just rapes the weaker player on mechanics. Thorzain winning the TSL could've never happened in broodwar. He played the best and smartest game of anyone in the tournament and definitely deserved to win, but I don't think anyone would try to argue that his mechanics are better than fruitdealer's or MC's or Naniwa's. In broodwar he would've just been stomped out by one of those strong mechanical players... essentially losing because of the poor UI. But in SC2, his genius and dedicated preparation paid off. Now you are saying that only games between TBLS have strategic depth dude a lack of mechanic disparity... this is simply not true. At LEAST everyone in the Kespa top 30 can take games off each other. And for your information Stork one of the pillars of modern Starcraft is from an era preceding that of the insane 500apm beasts that we see today and with half the mechanical ability of these players he is still a dominant force. | ||
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shaman6ix
Greece212 Posts
On May 21 2011 22:41 Noelani wrote: It was (actually still is) a major problem in broodwar that the game is so mechanically demanding. It has a terrible UI and unit AI. Just because SC2 has fixed these problems doesn't make it an "easier" game. It simply requires a different skillset. Instead of the top players being able to win purely on mechanics, you actually have to use *gasp* strategy, to win an RTS game. It's not that it requires no practice or that it's easy to get to the top at all. You still have to have extremely good mechanics to compete in the first place, which right now really only a couple players with the absolute cleanest mechanics have achieved.. like MVP and IdrA. The difference is, in SC2, the smartest players win, like Nestea and Thorzain, rather than those with the best pure mechanical skill - and that's how it should be. I couldnt agree more with this post, thats exactly how i feel about the matter. Although BW 'oldschool' players fail to realize that or actually choose not to. +1000 | ||
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