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On May 13 2011 08:18 Synistre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
People take stuff so serious these days.. :o Because it was stated in a serious, very matter-of-factly tone, lined with heavy elitism and condescension towards the very community that fuels the growth of this site and esports on the whole. It was a well written piece of trolling garbage, and you featured it on the front page. This in itself is worrying and disappointing, not to even mention the avalanche of venomous comments that followed from both sides, but mostly self-proclaimed BW veterans (e.g. Murderotica). It reminds me of all the reasons why I don't like frequenting forums, and makes me have second thoughts about spending my time here. Isn't TL supposed to be above this kind of immature flame wars? Aren't mods and veteran posters supposed to lead by good example? What good could possibly come from this?
No one is forcing you to stay here.
And the article isn't trollish in anyway nor the comments under it. They are stating their opinions. But I digress.
The article is talking about the state of top gameplay now and the players around it. If the top players doesn't take the game seriously, you should stop and think if this is really worth your time. Or maybe you can follow their example and play the game for fun.
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Can someone explain to me how the games are SO INCREDIBLY different like everyone says? Yeah, their different games, but one's BW skills should transfer over pretty smoothly.
Also, I don't know about everyone else, but when one of your game's best players is ZERGBONG, that is something very glaring
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On May 13 2011 08:34 jimbob615 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:27 Squeegy wrote:On May 13 2011 08:21 jimbob615 wrote:actually, current SC2 scene is dominated by ex-WC3 players. all the brood war players like Ret are getting beaten, incl NonY, Mondragon, the list goes on. eg, TSL!! The best SC player i think that has transitioned to SC2 is BRAT_OK, what a beast!  Not sure if serious. User was warned for this post yes im being serious -_- notice HayprO, Ret, IdrA, the list goes on, all got knocked out early in the TSL3. . And what race are they all again? Remember, SC2 is still being balanced, you have to let blizzard work its magic on the system, because mark my words, it will be by far the best game of all time by the time HOTS is finished.
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On May 13 2011 08:20 Lifendeaf wrote:
Well done for all the work you put into this acrticle, but I must say it was a waste of time..
You said nothing that we already didnt know, nor did you really adress the fact that SC2 is in its infancy and to compare it to a game like BW, which is not only very different but also had a lot more time to develope into the game it is today.
You also skirted around the fact that ex BW competitive players such as Boxer, July and Nada are yet to really win anything major in SC2... They continuely get dominated by these players that you say are "noobs" such as MC and MVP... Why is that? Maybe these players have improved or maybe the 2 games are so different thats its totally pointless trying to compare them.
I find it amazing how many people there are out there trying to discredit SC2 pro gamers and the SC2 community. Its a great game with a heap of very talented pros that have found their niche. If youre not happy then GTFO but it looks nlike its here to stay..
uh......................thats because boxer july and nada are NOT good at bw PRESENTLY. They were legends in the PAST, and when switched to sc2, they were basically bench warmers, at around the same skill level as MVP or nestea. Why do these sc2 noobs keep blabbering on about BW legends they know nothing about?
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On May 13 2011 08:25 stratmatt wrote:
i just tried watching a bw match on youtube between mvp and flash. i was bored out of my mind yet again. thank god sc2 came around and renewed my interest in rts games.
We BW fans have to deal with these kinds of posts all the time (many times even in the stream chat for BW games) and people wonder why there's so much animosity between the two groups.
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On May 13 2011 08:34 jimbob615 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:27 Squeegy wrote:On May 13 2011 08:21 jimbob615 wrote:actually, current SC2 scene is dominated by ex-WC3 players. all the brood war players like Ret are getting beaten, incl NonY, Mondragon, the list goes on. eg, TSL!! The best SC player i think that has transitioned to SC2 is BRAT_OK, what a beast! Not sure if serious. User was warned for this post yes im being serious -_- notice HayprO, Ret, IdrA, the list goes on, all got knocked out early in the TSL3. Now the finals are between ThorZaIN and Naniwa, both ex-WC3 pros. Kas and HasuObs were also ex-WC3 players. That's pretty strong evidence to have the top four of one of the most prestigious tournaments all be from WC3 backgrounds. I have never even played WC3 so I don't care for it, i'm just stating facts. I am not saying this to piss anyone off, but I honestly think ex-broodwar players are over-rated and have not performed as well to justify that ex-BW players are "better" than players from other games.
Oh, don't worry, I don't think anybody would get pissed off because of that. It's mostly just funny. I am going to just say that if you look at the overall tournament results, you'll find BW quite dominating.
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On May 13 2011 08:39 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:32 Seide wrote:On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote:
What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What? SC2 has very few skills that you need that you did not need in BW, i actually have trouble naming any off the top of my head. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:34 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote:
What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What type of skill is there in SC2 that is absent in BW? Top level stim cloning to preserve medivac energy, emp sniping, force field speed casting. all these require insane speed and macro that imo dont get rewarded in bw, because of that the gsl winners were not that good in bw, because their skill didnt get rewarded
All those are just examples of micro and micro is by no means harder in SC2. Maybe different but not harder. The reason for ZergBongs failures in BW were not due to the fact that the game didn’t reward his “awesome micro” but because he was a terrible player (in 1v1)
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United States47024 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:42 Royalcommand wrote:
uh......................thats because boxer july and nada are NOT good at bw PRESENTLY. They were legends in the PAST, and when switched to sc2, they were basically bench warmers, at around the same skill level as MVP or nestea. Why do these sc2 noobs keep blabbering on about BW legends they know nothing about?
The article also makes this very clear, even to those who didn't know it before. Anyone trying to make a counterpoint using Boxer/July/Nada as a basis has not read the article in full.
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On May 13 2011 08:43 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:25 stratmatt wrote:
i just tried watching a bw match on youtube between mvp and flash. i was bored out of my mind yet again. thank god sc2 came around and renewed my interest in rts games. We BW fans have to deal with these kinds of posts all the time (many times even in the stream chat for BW games) and people wonder why there's so much animosity between the two groups.
youve got to understand, the games were designed different, which also means why the skills dont transfer direct. remember, we sc2 want fast action, 6 workers start go, 1 base good fights go, not this tvt 7 base vs 7 base ok? Remember, 20 minute game macro style decision parameter valuations differ from that of full game mining game.
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I've been reading the last 30 pages or so. But havent seen any of todays SC2 pros say anything about this topic? I've also been checking around on twitter but can't find anything except for Artosis who called the article "ignorant" as all of you surely know. But what are the pros saying about this discussion?
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On May 13 2011 08:42 Royalcommand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:20 Lifendeaf wrote:
Well done for all the work you put into this acrticle, but I must say it was a waste of time..
You said nothing that we already didnt know, nor did you really adress the fact that SC2 is in its infancy and to compare it to a game like BW, which is not only very different but also had a lot more time to develope into the game it is today.
You also skirted around the fact that ex BW competitive players such as Boxer, July and Nada are yet to really win anything major in SC2... They continuely get dominated by these players that you say are "noobs" such as MC and MVP... Why is that? Maybe these players have improved or maybe the 2 games are so different thats its totally pointless trying to compare them.
I find it amazing how many people there are out there trying to discredit SC2 pro gamers and the SC2 community. Its a great game with a heap of very talented pros that have found their niche. If youre not happy then GTFO but it looks nlike its here to stay..
uh......................thats because boxer july and nada are NOT good at bw PRESENTLY. They were legends in the PAST, and when switched to sc2, they were basically bench warmers, at around the same skill level as MVP or nestea. Why do these sc2 noobs keep blabbering on about BW legends they know nothing about?
Probably because these SC2 noobs care about their movement and their community. And BW is an ugly old boring game. Soak that up champ.
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On May 13 2011 08:01 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:00 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:57 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:On May 13 2011 07:37 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 07:31 Miefer wrote:On May 13 2011 07:30 Beyonder wrote:
Replying to the 'offtopic' posts: SC2 fanbase is just a lot younger. BW has had the same players for so many years, it's only natural that the BW community was more mature and in general had more 'quality'. But quality is a dreadful word for that, I think maturity is a better word. But for SC2 to grow, the younger and more quantitative fanbase is needed oh so much. So in a way it is a double edged sword.
Apparently the SC2 community is not developed enough to take such awesome (and opinionated!) posts. I honestly do not see why people take it so personal. Be happy that someone has a different opinion than you and learn from it. It does not harm you one bit. Or at least, it should not. i think talking down to sc2 players isnt mature or showing quality at all... I think that him eloquently writing down his (backed up!) view is actually very mature. Dialogue is the adult way. Taking offense to anothers opinion on the other hand... Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way? You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really? Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce. Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce. Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?" OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending. hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer obviously not On the FIFA site? Teamliquid isn't some guy, or even a big e-sports site. It's the BW/SC2 website. Granted, a large part of the reason Team Liquid is so big is because pro gamers post here, and we just ran a front-page article calling them a bunch of lazy pussies whose games are only good for comedy, so I hope they have thick skins. We are a news site, we are not blizzard. The top news sites have covered such topics, of course.
Also, the article didnt as such say that the best sc2 players atm are bad, just that the BW progamers are better/have more potential.
I dont think youll find any sc2 pro that thinks they could beat flash or jaedong at sc2 (given theyve had some practice), and if they think they could they are naive and one of a kind
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On May 13 2011 08:28 Xiphos wrote:
Yo sc2 we ain't giving you flash or jardong lol go and make your own Kaesong or flash I'd you can
Not everybody cares about these two players. They can stay as far away from SC2 as far as i care, we don't need them.
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On May 13 2011 08:45 Willsoon wrote:
I've been reading the last 30 pages or so. But havent seen any of todays SC2 pros say anything about this topic? I've also been checking around on twitter but can't find anything except for Artosis who called the article "ignorant" as all of you surely know. But what are the pros saying about this discussion?
Quoting for emphasis (this thread moves very fast), I was just about to ask this.
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Probably because these SC2 noobs care about their movement and their community. And BW is an ugly old boring game. Soak that up champ.
You have the right to your opinion but can we please stave off of the egregiously generic and blatantly troll like posts? Soak that up champ? Really? If you want to criticize a game, at least take the time to back it up. I respect your opinion wholeheartedly but for now, you're not making the discussion any better.
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I think everyone understands that it's going to take a while before SC2's top of the line players to get as clean and crisp as A Class BW players. BW players today have insane training systems and a game that has been planed out and worked on for 10 years, SC2 doesn't have this, and won't for a while.
What the OP is pointing out could be very well what happens, it simply isn't fact (yet), because we haven't had any top of the line BW players come over. WC3 transfers have shown that just because X beat Y in WC3 most of the time, doesn't mean it'll be the same with sc2.
While this is an interesting speculation topic, I don't think its news. This seriously hinders new sc2 fans who want to be apart of the TL community because it always ends up being a pointless flamefest. SC2 fans feel alienated because they are getting talked down too and BW fans insisting they have the right to do so.
I expect more from TL Posters and mods
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On May 13 2011 08:39 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:32 Seide wrote:On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote:
What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What? SC2 has very few skills that you need that you did not need in BW, i actually have trouble naming any off the top of my head. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:34 gn0m wrote:On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote:
What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What type of skill is there in SC2 that is absent in BW? Top level stim cloning to preserve medivac energy, emp sniping, force field speed casting. all these require insane speed and macro that imo dont get rewarded in bw, because of that the gsl winners were not that good in bw, because their skill didnt get rewarded
Try Action's Defiler control, Jangbi's Storm, Zero's Broodlings, Hiya's Clutch Lock down, Emp dodges, Emp hits, Muta Micro, Marine n Medic micro, Reaver Micro, Vulture Micro, Bisu's scout block, Bisu's drone kill.
They didn't get rewarded because they lacked skill and motivation. For example : MVP. A Woongjin Terran.
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You know what would be really awesome? If we had a Flash vs. Nestea + Jaedong vs. MC Bo5 showmatch during the off season so that Flash+Jaedong can get a week or two of practice. I'm almost certain that they'll be able to take off atleast a few games from MC/Nestea.
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On May 13 2011 08:45 Willsoon wrote:
I've been reading the last 30 pages or so. But havent seen any of todays SC2 pros say anything about this topic? I've also been checking around on twitter but can't find anything except for Artosis who called the article "ignorant" as all of you surely know. But what are the pros saying about this discussion? Im sure youve heard this but, behind the press a lot of sc2 pros express concern over the games casual nature and inability to identify themselves in the game(idra jinro etc). because of that the effect of low amount of practice. im sure blizzard will balance the game to be the best of all time but there is a bit of time to take still
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On May 13 2011 08:43 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:25 stratmatt wrote:
i just tried watching a bw match on youtube between mvp and flash. i was bored out of my mind yet again. thank god sc2 came around and renewed my interest in rts games. We BW fans have to deal with these kinds of posts all the time (many times even in the stream chat for BW games) and people wonder why there's so much animosity between the two groups.
notice how i never really bothered posting on this site until the ultimate troll article was posted on the main page that basically crapped all over the game and players i have had a blast watching the past 6 months or so? ive used this site as a great sc2 resource, and im not even remotely interested in bw because like i said, i find it boring. thats my opinion....should it be frontpage news? you reap what you sow. ive already been dissapointed with the terrible showing of supposed sc2 greats that play for teamliquid(jinro and huk), and now im seeing this site itself isnt all i thought it was cracked up to be.
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EPT
