EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 124
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
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jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:26 travis wrote: no, the best sc players are the koreans listed in the article if you mean foreigner, then idra bratok pretty good tho -.- yeah man bratok is so good, one of my favourite players! :D | ||
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Monocle
United States1509 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Instead of just spouting shit he backs it up with hard facts and statements made by players. Take it with a grain of salt. He's wants to see what the cream of the crop can do just like anyone else. As for the guy who doesn't watch or follow BW. It's hard to comment on such things you have very little knowledge about. I hope you are aware that players like MVP, MC, Fruitdealer, Rainbow have been licensed pro gamers for several years now, so these stats are legitimate. The past is the past. You should never dwell on the past or think too far ahead. Focus on the Now. Think positive! It certainly helped these guys on their way to their GSL titles.  | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:26 darmousseh wrote: I don't think anyone has a problem with the article's conclusions or reasoning, the problem most people have is that the sc2 only community feels like this is just elitism from the bw community. One thing you learn in journalism is that even opinion articles need to be objective otherwise it's just a biased rant. There are a few things that most people here are upset about. 1. It's featured news. Why is this featured? Myself, along with others, simply don't understand why this thread gets extra attention. Other than those completely unaware, there is no new information. We already knew that if scbw pros switched over they would give every player a run of their money. Even though it is an opinion, by being on the front page, it is promoted. If it was just a blog and was spotlighted, no one would be saying anything. TLFEs have been highly opinionated and biased since their inception. To expect otherwise is to ignore their rich history of being so fanboy-driven. They're not news, and they don't try to be news. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:20 Lifendeaf wrote: You also skirted around the fact that ex BW competitive players such as Boxer, July and Nada are yet to really win anything major in SC2... They continuely get dominated by these players that you say are "noobs" such as MC and MVP... Why is that? Maybe these players have improved or maybe the 2 games are so different thats its totally pointless trying to compare them. I think the OP is saying that the game is rock paper scissors, which is of course hilarious. Only people I know of that say that can't scout at all. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote: What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What? SC2 has very few skills that you need that you did not need in BW, i actually have trouble naming any off the top of my head. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:04 Beyonder wrote: They notice something is wrong with the sport and they are not afraid to adress it. I get what you mean, but it is not that far off. I think it is incredibly awesome that TL throws this out there and I hope that someone gets inspired and writes a counter article which we can learn more from. People take stuff so serious these days.. :o But he's not saying anything about SC2 either way. He's just calling the players terrible and saying they don't deserve to be real competitors because they're not playing the best possible games ever. I'd like to see the reaction of some of those "terrible players" who play that "farce" of a game. Do you think all of the Team Liquid players are going to come on to the site and go "Oh, he's right. I'm so terrible and my gameplay is so bad. Better quit and slip into depression." It's f***ing offensive to those players. Are they playing at the best possible skill level? Most likely not, there's still a long way to go. But they're playing, competing, and making a living off of it. Do I go into your work and call the entire place a sham because it isn't the most efficient way to do business? No, because it's rude. One more thing I'd like to point out. Since, as people say, JD and Flash are still working to beat one another, and they're still evolving BW, that means that they're not playing the best possible game of BW yet, since tomorrow they may play better. Why watch them play if they're not at the absolute best they can be? The answer is because they're playing the best they are right now, which is what the SC2 pros are doing. So just friggin watch and enjoy. I don't see the problem ಠ_ಠ | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote: What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. I don't think you read the entire article because Intrigue clearly pointed out reasons why the four pillars wouldn't switch at the moment. On May 13 2011 08:32 Medrea wrote: I think the OP is saying that the game is rock paper scissors, which is of course hilarious. Only people I know of that say that can't scout at all. No, he isn't. That's an over-exaggeration. SC2 is certainly a lot more luck based though. | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:30 xarthaz wrote: What a lot of people dont understand is the big skill in the game. SC2 takes totally different and DIFFICULT skills to get good at, which is why imo bw pros havent switched. And paradoxically it also shows the heroism, the mechanical ability of the SC2 top players that remained unappreciated in the BW scene due to it not contributing to game winning. What type of skill is there in SC2 that is absent in BW? | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
I think it's undeniable though, the skill bar in SC2 just hasn't been set high enough yet. It's nothing compared to BW play, regardless of which is more enjoyable to play/watch. | ||
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jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:27 Squeegy wrote: Not sure if serious. User was warned for this post yes im being serious -_- notice HayprO, Ret, IdrA, the list goes on, all got knocked out early in the TSL3. Now the finals are between ThorZaIN and Naniwa, both ex-WC3 pros. Kas and HasuObs were also ex-WC3 players. That's pretty strong evidence to have the top four of one of the most prestigious tournaments all be from WC3 backgrounds. I have never even played WC3 so I don't care for it, i'm just stating facts. I am not saying this to piss anyone off, but I honestly think ex-broodwar players are over-rated and have not performed as well to justify that ex-BW players are "better" than players from other games. | ||
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Cathasaigh
United States285 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:32 TheYango wrote: TLFEs have been highly opinionated and biased since their inception. To expect otherwise is to ignore their rich history of being so fanboy-driven. They're not news, and they don't try to be news. Silly us for thinking it was news seeing as how it's listed under Featured News. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:32 Requizen wrote: But he's not saying anything about SC2 either way. He's just calling the players terrible and saying they don't deserve to be real competitors because they're not playing the best possible games ever. I'd like to see the reaction of some of those "terrible players" who play that "farce" of a game. Do you think all of the Team Liquid players are going to come on to the site and go "Oh, he's right. I'm so terrible and my gameplay is so bad. Better quit and slip into depression." It's f***ing offensive to those players. Are they playing at the best possible skill level? Most likely not, there's still a long way to go. But they're playing, competing, and making a living off of it. Do I go into your work and call the entire place a sham because it isn't the most efficient way to do business? No, because it's rude. One more thing I'd like to point out. Since, as people say, JD and Flash are still working to beat one another, and they're still evolving BW, that means that they're not playing the best possible game of BW yet, since tomorrow they may play better. Why watch them play if they're not at the absolute best they can be? The answer is because they're playing the best they are right now, which is what the SC2 pros are doing. So just friggin watch and enjoy. I don't see the problem ಠ_ಠ The point he was making is not that the pros have to be perfect. It was that SC2 pros are sometimes terrible. Recently Morrow 1a'd all his zerglings against a protoss ball. He didn't even try to spread or position his units better. It's things like that which shouldn't be happening at that level. But they do, and way, way too often. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:32 Seide wrote: What? SC2 has very few skills that you need that you did not need in BW, i actually have trouble naming any off the top of my head. On May 13 2011 08:34 gn0m wrote: Top level stim cloning to preserve medivac energy, emp sniping, force field speed casting. all these require insane speed and macro that imo dont get rewarded in bw, because of that the gsl winners were not that good in bw, because their skill didnt get rewardedWhat type of skill is there in SC2 that is absent in BW? | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:18 Murderotica wrote: No, it's because the players are not trying that hard because the game does not demand it from them. Take yourself for example - can't even make 50% winrate at D level on ICCup, is already Platinum in SC2. And you have played a LOT of BW games. Seems like there is some value to this argument, if a D level noob in BW can be "Platinum" in SC2. No wonder you are defending your cakewalk. All that says is that SC2's league system provides players with a more accurate assessment of their skill level. Put in a 50% platinum player against a 50% bronze player and 9 out of 10 times the platinum player would win. Yet in ICCup both players would be ranked D, do you think that's fair for the lesser skilled player? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 13 2011 08:34 jimbob615 wrote: yes im being serious -_- notice HayprO, Ret, IdrA, the list goes on, all got knocked out early in the TSL3. Now the finals are between ThorZaIN and Naniwa, both ex-WC3 pros. Kas and HasuObs were also ex-WC3 players. That's pretty strong evidence to have the top four of one of the most prestigious tournaments all be from WC3 backgrounds. I have never even played WC3 so I don't care for it, i'm just stating facts. I am not saying this to piss anyone off, but I honestly think ex-broodwar players are over-rated and have not performed as well to justify that ex-BW players are "better" than players from other games. The thing is, you're comparing ex-WC3 pros to foreigner SC players, which, to be frank, were nothing close to the real level of competition in BW. To put this in perspective, (and no offense intended to the players in question), the vast majority of foreign ex-SC players to switch over have and probably never would even qualify past a Courage tournament--the tournament required to so much as compete in professional events in Korea. On May 13 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote: IMO, if TBLS switched over to SC2, they would obviously win the next few GSL's, but the skill gap between them and say a player like MVP would be nowhere near as big as it was in BW, simply because of the skill sets required in SC2. It's just really different and mechanics are not emphasized nearly as much. I think the point is that the skill gap between them and a player like MVP is so large that even though the gap would be smaller, it wouldn't matter--they'd win everything regardless once they got accustomed to the game. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
In the Foreigner scene, yes some Warcraft III players are doing exceptionally well. However, most of the foreigners who came from BW are doing pretty well for themselves too, i.e. getting sponsorship and winning tournaments too. All the guys with RTS background are doing well or have found homes. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
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