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I think the one thing that people forget about the Longinus game is that Savior was able to get a double gas expansion, which allowed him to defend far less territory than he "should" have had to.
Not denying Savior's brilliance or NaDa's lack of strategic and tactical vision, but I think it's worth pointing out.
Also, Verticle Horizon's post was damned good in terms of pointing out what happened. I think though that JulyZerg could definitely play a more macro oriented style if he wanted, but he doesn't make that choice. JulyZerg's lesser strategic vision is definitely on display though when you notice how he will play very large percentages of the game with only his main base rather than looking for an opportune time to expand. It's not that other players can't play other styles at a top level, but that they lock themselves into their own styles and their ability to diversify lessens due to rust rather than ability.
Also, Manifesto's post on battle tactics is so true. Watch Midas's game vs. Savior on hitchiker. Even though Savior was a bit off there's no denying that Midas's play in that game, particularly his troop management, was incredible.
Also, people don't give OOv enough credit. Even though defensive games of SC had been played before OOv, pre-OOv StarCraft was seen as a function of when to attack, whereas OOv showed that defense can be a means of strengthening your position. I don't want to say that without OOv Savior wouldn't exist, because Savior might have formulated his play style on his own, but OOv's style was definitely the precursor to Savior's style.
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Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate.
Also I wanted to comment on what Gravity said. Something along the lines of Savior having sub par micro for top pro gamers but winning because of his deflier usage being better than anyone else. What the fuck do you think defilier usage is? Thats right...Micro. Please shh.
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You guys are still have thoughts about this guy?
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Agaist heavy defier user like savior, I think terrans just have to learn to repair their vessles after plag. and sepearate medic from marines when they are plaged to save some manas. I don't think it's that hard.
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Well, there is a "restoration" medic ability after all.
But even with it used, plague still would be a counter to vessel raids(vessel movement apart from army), and they still will have a hard time irradiating defiliers, and preventing that is what plague is generally about.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 28 2007 01:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate.
Well the reason why Savior's so good ZvP is that he just doesn't ever make any strategical errors if given all the correct information, which is always receives in ZvP because of his scouting lords. No Protoss can surprise him like a Terran can, because he knows exactly what a Protoss is doing, and thus Savior will always have the correct number of units or counters. Add to that his mistake-free micro and hes almost invincible.
uhjoo brought to my attention an interesting thing about Savior after that long, back-and-forth game vs Nada in the 3rd Superfight: when Savior was asked what made the difference in that game, a 40-minute, back and forth, mine out the map game, Savior said, "I had an undiscovered overlord at a critical position."
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Highways is only person who understand that terran is hella boring. Terrans wins are so boring that I cannot remember a single game where I enjoy such a win. Toss and zerg give this game a soul. Terran is a race for hating  .
Respect to Highways, no 1. terran hater. I am no. 2.
GoGoGo Savior!
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Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
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I don't think there has ever been a lack of zerg players. And they had always been doing pretty good even befor savior. The only difference is that savior is able to win TvZs like never befor.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote:
Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
What have you been smoking son?
Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either.
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United States20667 Posts
On February 28 2007 22:48 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote:
Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point. What have you been smoking son? Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either.
Arkanoid is FINE, Zerg has nearly 90% win rate on it IIRC.
HH is alright. Zerg has well over 50% ZvT, not sure about ZvP.
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On February 28 2007 23:11 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2007 22:48 Nyovne wrote:On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote:
Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point. What have you been smoking son? Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either. Arkanoid is FINE, Zerg has nearly 90% win rate on it IIRC. HH is alright. Zerg has well over 50% ZvT, not sure about ZvP.
Actually, in teh case of Arkanoid, the statistics were single-handedly changed by Savior. It was a clear Terran-favored map... until Savior went on his undefeated streak on it, thus drastically changing the percentages around (as a new map, it hadn't been played too often). Ironically, his winning streak ended vs. NaDa, another Terran.
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Osaka27179 Posts
No, his winning streak ended vs Iris in game 1.
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On February 28 2007 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2007 01:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate. Well the reason why Savior's so good ZvP is that he just doesn't ever make any strategical errors if given all the correct information, which is always receives in ZvP because of his scouting lords. No Protoss can surprise him like a Terran can, because he knows exactly what a Protoss is doing, and thus Savior will always have the correct number of units or counters. Add to that his mistake-free micro and hes almost invincible. uhjoo brought to my attention an interesting thing about Savior after that long, back-and-forth game vs Nada in the 3rd Superfight: when Savior was asked what made the difference in that game, a 40-minute, back and forth, mine out the map game, Savior said, "I had an undiscovered overlord at a critical position."
If I'm not mistaken, that quote is from the game on Tau Cross in which savior caught him with his pants down when he saw an opening thanks to the overlord above the natural choke. It wasn't a mine-out-map game at all IIRC.
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On March 01 2007 00:16 Manifesto7 wrote:
No, his winning streak ended vs Iris in game 1.
Right! I totally forgot about that. My mind just slipped over it... when I think of Savior vs Iris on Arkanoid, I think of Game 5 +_+
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What I really want to see is sAviOr lose while he is doing his very best. If sAviOr loses while he is slumping it won't matter to me at all.
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the bigger savior will be, the harder he'll fall ( harder not difficult )
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So I guess Kennigit was right. Raped by Bisu. Protoss has never beaten a Zerg in starleague finals before. And now Bisu does it on a royal road against the seemingly most dominant player ever at his seemingly peak.
Lets pray Bisu will be the new long awaited Protoss pride!
actually this is really enjoyable, with the big Horizon post, Mani believe, and in general all the discussion about what terran could possibly take down Savior. He shows again and again that he takes out Midas and Nada.
People did not consider Bisu! Savior was SO dominated. I am looking forward to seeing all the whining that Nada fans has been critizised about. I higly doubt that savior fans will settle with this one BO before they have to admit that Bisu can pwn him hard!
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Blue,
Bisu played the games of his life and deservedly won. Savior is still the better player... what is it that you don't get?
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On March 07 2007 05:20 Blue wrote:
So I guess Kennigit was right. Raped by Bisu. Protoss has never beaten a Zerg in starleague finals before. And now Bisu does it on a royal road against the seemingly most dominant player ever at his seemingly peak.
Lets pray Bisu will be the new long awaited Protoss pride!
actually this is really enjoyable, with the big Horizon post, Mani believe, and in general all the discussion about what terran could possibly take down Savior. He shows again and again that he takes out Midas and Nada.
People did not consider Bisu! Savior was SO dominated. I am looking forward to seeing all the whining that Nada fans has been critizised about. I higly doubt that savior fans will settle with this one BO before they have to admit that Bisu can pwn him hard!
Im not going to agree with that, theres alot of stuff to be said about style. Think about it this way:
Savior uses simple strategies, its all based around 3hatch muta vs terran, and he plays vs P and Z very similar to how he plays vs T (atleast for his begining strategies). Bisu on the other hand plays very complex strategies contoured to the matchup. Savior has had a busy schedual, and Bisu had a vacation.
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EPT
