Poll: Is Savior's dominance a good thing or bad thing for progaming? (Vote): good thing (Vote): bad thing
Personally, I'm tired of him winning. I am so ready for someone to knock him of his throne. While I do respect him as a player, I would much rather see someone like rA or July winning. I don't think his play and style is doing anything for the Korean fans either. It seems like a lot of people show up to his matches just to see if he will lose. So what are Tl.nets thoughts?
I voted yes because it's obviously good or bad for progaming. I would have voted good thing though since it's about time we got a Z player on top. Terrans have had far too long in the spotlight.
On February:56 nova_442 wrote: I voted yes because it's obviously good or bad for progaming. I would have voted good thing though since it's about time we got a Z player on top. Terrans have had far too long in the spotlight.
This is excellent for progaming. If it was a toss up between tons of players all the time, people (or at least i) would be bored. Players like savior who achieve dominance gain such hype that when they fall (like he will to bisu next week ) everyone goes ape shit bananas.
Remember that 3-0 Superfight #1 against boxer? yeah, so much for super
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
sAviOr strikes me as a Neo-July in his image. July was the God of War and known for crushing many pro gamers. This could be interpreted as evil much like sAviOr.
sAviOr draws many fans because his play is impressive and his games are usually exciting (imo at least). I think he's helping the game a lot by giving a dominator like Boxer was and maybe he will inspire players to work harder and possibly bring in some new blood. He's certainly not hurting it.
I wish people would get of that pose. There are tons of logical explanations for it. I doubt he is a neo-Nazi or the Korean pro scene is biased towards Nazism. Things mean different things other places in the world and this could be the case. Stop saying he was saluting till you find out out all the facts.
just the fact that he is dominant is great for progaming. just because of this one thing: it shows that a skilled player can consistently win, and that the game is not all luck and map imbals
that is *great* for gamers everywhere, they have something to aspire to
The very fact that so many people want to see him fall is part of what makes him so great. Having someone so dominant is both inspiring to those who like his style (of which I am one) and acts as anticipation for those who hate him, because they want someone to rise up to knock him down.
It's obviously good for progaming, it forces other players to try harder in order to upset Savior's dominance.
What I really don't understand is that, when Nada dominates the progaming scene - shown through his consecutive MSL wins (like Savior) and the inaugural golden mouse achievement in OSL (which is more than what Savior achieved so far) - people still cheered him on. However, when Savior dominates, people hate him.
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
By the way Locke. this comment right here makes you look very stupid. NaDa is art player and while being very fast doesn't spam. Almost every action he does is checking on something or macroing or microing. NaDa isn't like the noobies that get 300 apm just to get it. It has a purpose which you evidently don't realize.
Why do people say savior is boring?!?! I can't wait to see his games because of the insane strategies that he seems to pull off FLAWLESSLY. Game 3 and 4 of the osl finals nearly brought tears to my eyes with the pure art gosuness of his plays. When was the last time we've seen a zerg user use queens, or defilers like savior? Never!
On February 24 2007 21:40 EAGER-beaver wrote: Why do people say savior is boring?!?! I can't wait to see his games because of the insane strategies that he seems to pull off FLAWLESSLY. Game 3 and 4 of the osl finals nearly brought tears to my eyes with the pure art gosuness of his plays. When was the last time we've seen a zerg user use queens, or defilers like savior? Never!
I dont get why zerg's are always portrayed in a darker image. He was even used as the black ninja in the OSL intro's (i think). If someone had questioned if boxer's dominance was a good thing, they would've been lynched.
But i agree with beaver, after watching the OSL finals (didnt watch many of his games before) i absolutely love/enjoy watching his art usage of lurkers and defilers and overall game control.
On February 24 2007 22:55 QuietIdiot wrote: His ZvT/ZvZ is godly, and incredibly entertaining
His ZvP is just extremely effective, but fucking boring and he plays it nearly all the same each game
When has there ever been a dominant Zerg?
Sure, you could say July, but it was nowhere near the way savior is now. I was getting sick of the gods being handed from terran to terran each era.
Agree 100%. We already have too many terran icons...
Finally a Zerg that owns just about everyone... For us who was sick and tired of all the Terran dominance the last years this is happy times. Now we just need some less terran favored maps that works in ZvP too. I so hope we get such a map next season.
A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now was forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it must be to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada, no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
By the way Locke. this comment right here makes you look very stupid. NaDa is art player and while being very fast doesn't spam. Almost every action he does is checking on something or macroing or microing. NaDa isn't like the noobies that get 300 apm just to get it. It has a purpose which you evidently don't realize.
Using the words "spam and attack" was inaccurate.. this IS nada we're talking about of course he is art player and has amazing strategy abillities. he is also the most accomplished SC player ever... But I was comparing him to Savior not to "a noobie that gets 300 apm just to get it". And doing that I still think that Savior brought psychological warfare in BW to another level. Far above nada, whose main charectaristic is perfection of mechanics.
On a side note, why be so bad mannered and why use "by the way" if that's the only thing you're saying?
On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now were forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it musts to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada; no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now were forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it musts to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada; no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now were forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it musts to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada; no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
bravo. best post i've seen in a long long time.
seriously. not only was it an excellently argued point, but it was beautifully written
On February 25 2007 00:30 Chobo_Abe wrote: Savior = Roger Federer.
Yeah. I make this comparison a lot with friends. They just understand the game on a level others don't. They play their opponents perfectly and are on a level beyond any of their rivals.
I know exactly when I started disliking Savior. Superfight. 3-0 against Boxer. I knew then that progaming had entered a new level and the days of flashy dropshipping and capitalizing on opponent's mistakes were over. -.-
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
By the way Locke. this comment right here makes you look very stupid. NaDa is art player and while being very fast doesn't spam. Almost every action he does is checking on something or macroing or microing. NaDa isn't like the noobies that get 300 apm just to get it. It has a purpose which you evidently don't realize.
Using the words "spam and attack" was inaccurate.. this IS nada we're talking about of course he is art player and has amazing strategy abillities. he is also the most accomplished SC player ever... But I was comparing him to Savior not to "a noobie that gets 300 apm just to get it". And doing that I still think that Savior brought psychological warfare in BW to another level. Far above nada, whose main charectaristic is perfection of mechanics.
On a side note, why be so bad mannered and why use "by the way" if that's the only thing you're saying?
I don't know why I said by the way and I should've been more mannered, just made me a little mad the way that I read it .
On February 24 2007 21:20 Silver wrote: just the fact that he is dominant is great for progaming. just because of this one thing: it shows that a skilled player can consistently win, and that the game is not all luck and map imbals
that is *great* for gamers everywhere, they have something to aspire to
Savior's games are affecting and will affect the Starcraft scene positively. The fact that people are getting upset about him is a sign of that. The other players will be forced to adapt to his style of play, and some will overcome it. Starcraft is a balanced enough game that anyone can beat any other player with enough insight, strategy, and skill. Hopefully Bisu vs Savior isn't the rape that people expect, and we can start to see the adaptation of players to his domination. I believe that when looked back upon Savior will be viewed as an innovative, masterful player who brought new things to Starcraft, maturing the scene and making the game that much more interesting to watch for fans.
I really do hope Bisu pulls off something amazing in the upcoming games.
What rises must also fall. One day Savior\'s dominance will end and I\'m not so sure if it\'ll be a zerg player that replaces him. I get the nagging feeling that it\'ll be a terran player that brings him down from his throne.
Generally speaking, people like terran players winning. I don\'t know why exactly, but I guess it\'s a combination of there being more terran players, the terran race being the \'human\' race and the fact that the terran race is more capable of turning the tides than any other race. Terrans can be on the brink of losing but slowly build themselves back into the game; and the efficiency of their units means that winning battles is much more essential, which makes each of their battles more interesting.
Remember zerg fans, it was only two years ago when there were just one or two major trophies won by the zerg. Even when GoRush beat Nada in the MSL finals, or when July beat Goodfriend in the OSL finals, I got the feeling that this was a one off, that zerg players were MEANT to lose in the finals against terran. The epitomy of terran arrogance against zerg were shown by players like Midas who said \"People say I have the easiest time against protoss, but it\'s not true. Playing the zerg is the easiest. You just bunker rush them if they\'re close, or expand early if you\'re far away.\" and Oov who said \"People say July is my rival. A zerg cannot be my rival. Only great terran players can consider themselves rivals to me.\"
Savior made it seem natural that a zerg player beats a terram player. People never cried (terran players that is) imbalance with July\'s mutalisks, despite his awesome never seen before skills with them. I don\'t think what Savior achieved with zerg will happen again anytime soon. People are so easy to point out the imbalance in PvZ, but take it for granted when zergs loses against terran. Enjoy Savior\'s domination while you can, because stylish or not, you probably won\'t see a non-terran player dominating like this unless some major balance patch is made. As for the terran fans whinning about Nada\'s cute mnm micro not being enough to slaughter everything Savior throws at him - you had your time, time to taste a dose of your medicine
On February 24 2007 21:25 Cambium wrote: It's obviously good for progaming, it forces other players to try harder in order to upset Savior's dominance.
What I really don't understand is that, when Nada dominates the progaming scene - shown through his consecutive MSL wins (like Savior) and the inaugural golden mouse achievement in OSL (which is more than what Savior achieved so far) - people still cheered him on. However, when Savior dominates, people hate him.
Am I missing something?
So true. When a terran dominates they're called great and are worshipped (boxer, oov, Nada). When a zerg dominates however they're dubbed evil and their dominance is resented. Do people really only want to see terrans win? What makes BW a great game is the 3 race system and if only terrans dominated it would get boring. I can understand protoss fan's pain but really its not Savior's fault about Z>P imbalance, he's only exploiting what's there. Blame Blizzard or the mapmakers if anyone. What's he supposed to do? Throw games against protoss?
I think it's a really good thing that Savior is dominating. Fans want heros who wins when they want them to win. Even though I'm a zerg user, I rather see a toss or terran user dominating this long =/.
sAviOr plays StarCraft so perfectly. That is why I don't like him being on the top.
WHAT??????
sAviOr plays Zerg so perfectly. I can't see how anybody could take more than 30% of games from him. He's just too good. He plays StarCraft so perfect hat it's BORING. Even the aggressive 9 pool build sAviOr manages to build a huge economy Zerg.
Zerg used to be about low eco high micro attacks. sAviOr with his perfect play has turned Zerg into a heavy macro race just like Terran and Protoss. sAviOr executes his micro perfectly just like all the other pros. His macro is the best of all the Zerg by far.
So why does he continue to bore me game after game? It's because he plays so safely. BoxeR excited the world with his amazing micro. He played such a flawful game and still won. He microed when the match was on the line. If he didn't dodge that lurker spine he could potentially lose the game. Having that on the line is what made his games so exciting. He played such a dangerous game of StarCraft and won. sAviOr plays such a safe way of StarCraft and wins. Goodness gracious how boring.
I think sAviOr is an amazing player. This doesn't mean I like to watch him. I think watching sAviOr is just boring. Cool, he has art defiler usage. Cool, his muta micro is like Shark/July. Cool, his scourge usage is crazy. Cool, he plays with an enormous economy.
sAviOr is amazing. Amazingly BORING. Having boring players own the crown is like having Italy as the World Cup champions again. (Italy plays some pretty boring football in my opinion. Oh and I'm not associating sAviOr as a defensive player because Italy plays boring defensive football. I'm just comparing them to him because they both bore me.)
I honestly think it's not good that he's number 1.
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
By the way Locke. this comment right here makes you look very stupid. NaDa is art player and while being very fast doesn't spam. Almost every action he does is checking on something or macroing or microing. NaDa isn't like the noobies that get 300 apm just to get it. It has a purpose which you evidently don't realize.
Actually... most of Nada's actions are hotkey presses heh. Like 50-60% of his actions.
On February 24 2007 21:40 EAGER-beaver wrote: Why do people say savior is boring?!?! I can't wait to see his games because of the insane strategies that he seems to pull off FLAWLESSLY. Game 3 and 4 of the osl finals nearly brought tears to my eyes with the pure art gosuness of his plays. When was the last time we've seen a zerg user use queens, or defilers like savior? Never!
god of queens - tsunami god of defilers - ameba
as for the posts about apm- only boxer had apm 250+ with vapm 200+, i didn't see a single replay of nada with such high percentage. thing i like bout savior is that he has apm 235 or so which means he really uses every click to the maximum-while nada may check things around that doesn't negate the fact that he is a spam machine like 99.999% terrans out there.
I think Savior dominating as he has is a great thing for Starcraft. It has invigorated both players and fans, and will, in my opinion, eventually take Starcraft to a whole new level. Its also great to see a Zerg player accomplish what in the past only terrans have.
Starcraft has seen a dominating player during most of its time in the form of Boxer, nada, oov, and now Savior. I dont expect Savior to dominate like this forever though. Sooner or later, I suspect his gameplay will be deconstructed and other pros will improve and figure out how to play against him. Much like the other greats, Savior himself will be forced to adapt and to alter himself somewhat to remain a force to be reckoned with. And I am positive he will be able to do so. He might be dethroned from the number 1 position at some point in the future, but I think he will remain a top player for as long as he plays.
There is no doubt in my mind that Savior is playing better than any other pro right now, but I wouldnt go as far as to say he is perfect. He hasnt been 3-0ing and 2-0ing other players left and right, so he has lost here and there. I cannot believe that Savior has reached a skill level that is consummate and can never be transcended.
That isn't to take away from the mind blowing level of skill he has ahieved or how he is now dominating the pro scene like only a handful of players have in the past. Whats more, he has done so with a race that we though would never be able to do so.
I think there are pros currently playing who have the potential to improve and start deeply troubling Savior. (I wish Boxer hadnt retired, I strongly suspect he would have reached even footing with Savior after some initial losses). There is also the possibility that Starcraft will find a new player who manages to accomplish this. I cant say when this will start happening though, but I think it will, because it has happened with every other top player in history. I find it hard to accept that Savior will stay numero uno until Starcraft dies. Whats great about this prospect is that hopefully it wont be Savior who starts slumping, but it will be other players who raise their game and start competing with Savior. That means Savior will accomplish what Boxer, nada and oov have - raising the bar of skill, not just for themselves, but of the entire generation of pros. And thats just a salivating idea.
So, go Savior! In the end, much like Boxer, his greatest contribution to the game will not be his impressive list of achievements, but influencing an entire generation of professionals and fans in many ways.
On February 25 2007 01:58 jkillashark wrote: sAviOr plays StarCraft so perfectly. That is why I don't like him being on the top.
WHAT??????
sAviOr plays Zerg so perfectly. I can't see how anybody could take more than 30% of games from him. He's just too good. He plays StarCraft so perfect hat it's BORING. Even the aggressive 9 pool build sAviOr manages to build a huge economy Zerg.
Zerg used to be about low eco high micro attacks. sAviOr with his perfect play has turned Zerg into a heavy macro race just like Terran and Protoss. sAviOr executes his micro perfectly just like all the other pros. His macro is the best of all the Zerg by far.
So why does he continue to bore me game after game? It's because he plays so safely. BoxeR excited the world with his amazing micro. He played such a flawful game and still won. He microed when the match was on the line. If he didn't dodge that lurker spine he could potentially lose the game. Having that on the line is what made his games so exciting. He played such a dangerous game of StarCraft and won. sAviOr plays such a safe way of StarCraft and wins. Goodness gracious how boring.
I think sAviOr is an amazing player. This doesn't mean I like to watch him. I think watching sAviOr is just boring. Cool, he has art defiler usage. Cool, his muta micro is like Shark/July. Cool, his scourge usage is crazy. Cool, he plays with an enormous economy.
sAviOr is amazing. Amazingly BORING. Having boring players own the crown is like having Italy as the World Cup champions again. (Italy plays some pretty boring football in my opinion. Oh and I'm not associating sAviOr as a defensive player because Italy plays boring defensive football. I'm just comparing them to him because they both bore me.)
I honestly think it's not good that he's number 1.
And Oov isn't boring??
You can blame terran for his style. Every terran always fast expands, what can he do?
Terran dictates plays, if they fast expand then savior has to out macro them. Terran will just get tanks and bunkers at nat, so zerg can't attack until terran moves out or defilers are ready.
you guys are all being so fucking unfair to savior... he isn't made out of machine... he is a normal breathing organic being like everyone else, but he's able to get to the top through hard work... and you think his style is boring? he uses every single unit in the game, and varies his style from rushes to long game planning (he pulls off strats from 4 pool to guardian rushes to dark swarm quick-tech).
I want to ask you all, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? I admire him for his dominance, not hate him for it...
I for one find his style very interesting and fun. He is like a peace keeper in first the 10 miniuts of the game, never really attack the other guy unless was attacked. Then a few miniuts after hive, he become a laughter house. An absolut killing machining with his swarm, plage, ultra, gurds combo. It's art.
I remember seeing a replay of him on LT a long time ago.. Every little thing he did had meaning and was meant to confuse and demoralize his opponent. It was just beautiful. I prefer his intelligent style much more than nadas spam and attack style even though I usually side with the terrans being one myself.
I think he is great for SC cause he really makes you see the psychology in sc instead of just the plain 13 hours perfect macro micro which to me can be really boring to watch..
I hope he apologise for the Heil-Hitler poses in his next interviews. Being all his life infront of PC playing SC I guess he doesn't fully understand how offensive and out of place that is especially when he is a teenager's idol and every little thing he does has huge impact on the crowd..
By the way Locke. this comment right here makes you look very stupid. NaDa is art player and while being very fast doesn't spam. Almost every action he does is checking on something or macroing or microing. NaDa isn't like the noobies that get 300 apm just to get it. It has a purpose which you evidently don't realize.
Actually... most of Nada's actions are hotkey presses heh. Like 50-60% of his actions.
have you ever heard of double tap to jump around? maybe that explains it !?!
I think it's a good thing. Only terran have had the "unbeatable players" before. Boxer, Nada and perhaps also oov can be counted among them.
While Savior has a certain style, he has also been able to remain so good because of forsight and adaptability, always seeming to know what to do next. Even so he won't win forever, but he'll force the others to come up with something new in turn to bring the game forward.
Talking about boring... Terran's the most boring race in SC. TvZ you basically do the same thing every single game. Get mnm, tanks, vessels, attack, dropship kill expansions. At least zerg mixes it up with lurkers, muta lings, guardians and defilers.
And Terran risking the game with every attack? Terrans have awesome defense and are rarely at risk when attacking and the other two races have to adapt to their timing. Hwasin freely leaves his base to attack and forsakes his base to be defended/rescued by reinforcements and scvs. Whereas zerg, if your flank doesn't work out or you lose mutas, you're doomed. Nobody has it easier in SC than terrans, and that's why they've been so successful.
If anything, watching Savior is entertaining because he rapes the other guy so badly sometimes it makes them look like noobs, not Starleaguers. Watching Nada doing the same thing that every Terran does, and failing, is boring. Watching Savior infesting Nada's CC and taking him to school is great.
Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p.
It\'s a good thing. Simple. Really, what would you want instead? Im a deadass Boxer & Nada fan but when it comes to a question like this i can\'t deny. I for myself am glad that savior entered the osl cause it\'s just a farce seeing other players win while a really strong part of the scene is not playing in the league. That would just feel wrong.
Trust me i literaly pull out my hair every time when i see saviors defilers. I dont think his style is boring, it\'s fearsome. When i see a terran fight against him im allways nervous, even when it looks good for the terran. Cause i know one single failure and the monster will push himself away from the wall. There are rare moments savior does not handle the situation right. Everything seems like a ton harder against him. When i saw his lurker placement on longinus i was like \"wtf you bloody brilliant bastard\". It payned me to death to see it but it was just the right time at the right place.
I think it\'s fucking cool. Really, his presence is awesome for the scene. And over the last few weeks i really started to like him as a person.
All he does fellaws is play like a zerg player is supose to play nowadays. This will not only affect terrans maybe it will affect the goddamn lazy protoss players to finaly DO something. If you have to bring up as much stamina as nal_ra had to in his first game against savior, well then the fuck that\'s the way it is.
Savior wins cause he is strong. He does not win cause all the others played week. And here comes the beauty of starcraft. All the others have to push themself forward, to work harder, find new ways, improve themself over and over again. It will motivate young and old to one day fight the best player and beat him. Savior is the mount everest of the scene right now. He\'s the gas that makes the motivation motor run in all these players.
Imagine how strong the next player will be. It\'s unbelievable that even after so many years there is still so much room for improvement.
On February 25 2007 03:59 gravity wrote: Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p.
are you joking? savior has the best multitask of any zerg EVER and better micro than anyone but july
On February 25 2007 03:02 vnlegend wrote: Talking about boring... Terran's the most boring race in SC. TvZ you basically do the same thing every single game. Get mnm, tanks, vessels, attack, dropship kill expansions. At least zerg mixes it up with lurkers, muta lings, guardians and defilers.
And Terran risking the game with every attack? Terrans have awesome defense and are rarely at risk when attacking and the other two races have to adapt to their timing. Hwasin freely leaves his base to attack and forsakes his base to be defended/rescued by reinforcements and scvs. Whereas zerg, if your flank doesn't work out or you lose mutas, you're doomed. Nobody has it easier in SC than terrans, and that's why they've been so successful.
If anything, watching Savior is entertaining because he rapes the other guy so badly sometimes it makes them look like noobs, not Starleaguers. Watching Nada doing the same thing that every Terran does, and failing, is boring. Watching Savior infesting Nada's CC and taking him to school is great.
On February 25 2007 03:02 vnlegend wrote: Talking about boring... Terran's the most boring race in SC. TvZ you basically do the same thing every single game. Get mnm, tanks, vessels, attack, dropship kill expansions. At least zerg mixes it up with lurkers, muta lings, guardians and defilers.
And Terran risking the game with every attack? Terrans have awesome defense and are rarely at risk when attacking and the other two races have to adapt to their timing. Hwasin freely leaves his base to attack and forsakes his base to be defended/rescued by reinforcements and scvs. Whereas zerg, if your flank doesn't work out or you lose mutas, you're doomed. Nobody has it easier in SC than terrans, and that's why they've been so successful.
If anything, watching Savior is entertaining because he rapes the other guy so badly sometimes it makes them look like noobs, not Starleaguers. Watching Nada doing the same thing that every Terran does, and failing, is boring. Watching Savior infesting Nada's CC and taking him to school is great.
u obviously never played terran nor know anything about it. terran is probly the hardest race to play with every unit being practically worthless without using their micro/abilities all the time. Terran not risking? lol u risk all the time with all the shit zerg has (lurker, especially stop lurker, being caught by mutaling in the open, noticing swarm 1 second to late, getting ur vessel scourged) Not even nada with fucking crazy multitasking can keep an eye on everything, especially when playing a good zerg like savior. Go see the VODs, nada lost so much because of noticing stuff 1 sec too late.
On February 25 2007 03:59 gravity wrote: Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p.
are you joking? savior has the best multitask of any zerg EVER and better micro than anyone but july
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. I think people think that because Savior is so dominant he must not have any flaws. In his recent ZvT series his muta harass has done jack shit half the time, but he's still managed to mostly win anyway.
I'm not saying he's *bad* at micro and stuff, clearly he's pretty good at it, it's just that I like that his micro/mechanics/APM isn't his primary strength (Oov being another example), unlike Nada. If Nada had won it would have been bad for SC, in my opinion.
Thanks for your input but no. Savior's muta harass does "jack-shit" because the Terrans are fucking TERRIFIED of it. They overcompensate by building turrets and allowing him to take his 3rd gas, bam. Mutas are worth it. Don't think that mutalisks have to kill an ungodly amount (or even any) in order for them to be worth it.
I was completely amazed by the amount of damage and huge threat he was able to display with simply his mutaling force, counterattacking at the correct times, killing stray units, it was absolutely beautiful. Too many Zergs waste their mutalisks trying to kill 3-4 more scvs, and they get fucked when the Terran starts using dropship play etc.
That post about Savior was awesome. Savior wasn't always this great, and was an unknown and worked hard for what he has accomplished. He has taken Zerg to a new level, and makes Protosses and Terrans shit their pants. Being able to 3-1 the greatest gamer ever is ridiculous. After seeing the VODs, I saw how he absolutely crumbled Nada with ridiculous timing, defiler control, and macro. So sick.
On February 25 2007 03:59 gravity wrote: Savior's dominance is good because it helps prove that strategy/decision making is more important in Starcraft than having perfect APM/multitask/micro. When it comes to the latter things Savior is merely average to above average by pro standards (in fact I think people are sometimes blind to the amount of small micro mistakes he makes sometimes), it's the rest that pushes him to the top.
edit: also it's nice to have a non-Terran dominate, even if it means Protoss is more screwed against Z than ever :p.
are you joking? savior has the best multitask of any zerg EVER and better micro than anyone but july
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc. I think people think that because Savior is so dominant he must not have any flaws. In his recent ZvT series his muta harass has done jack shit half the time, but he's still managed to mostly win anyway.
I'm not saying he's *bad* at micro and stuff, clearly he's pretty good at it, it's just that I like that his micro/mechanics/APM isn't his primary strength (Oov being another example), unlike Nada. If Nada had won it would have been bad for SC, in my opinion.
how can you watch savior's games and not know he has great multitask, he's everywhere defending and he builds units/drones perfectly while microing, anyone can see that without viewing an fpvod.
and how can you claim his multitask is "average" in the first place if you say yourself that you are "not sure about his multitask"
and he "wastes units with micro errors quite often" ? are you kidding? he barely ever loses drones even when he's bunker rushed or 9/10 gated, did you see that game vs nal_ra where he delayed zealots with 2 forward drones? or that he's IMPOSSIBLE to cheese? how can that be with "average" micro?
if savior's flanks are uncoordinated then which zerg has coordinated flanks?
Just the fact that he said "Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod" makes whatever he says next have almost no credibility. Obviously you are half asleep when watching VODs or you just aren't bright enough to understand that when the video is centered on some beautiful attack savior is doing and then switches to savior's base where another army is being gathered savior is doing those at the same time. Savior has lings and mutas and lurkers and other shit running around all parts of the map and he barely even loses more than one ling before retreating them when attacked by a superior force, which is an easy example of incredible multitasking if you have ever actually played the game.
Not trying to be mean, though it does come across that way; just trying to defend savior and make you more aware of why he is the best right now.
On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now were forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it musts to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada; no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
think about it. whenever there is someone who raises the bar, everyone else is forced to raise their game as well. for that simple reason it's a good thing for progaming!
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc.
On February 25 2007 05:39 boghat wrote: Just the fact that he said "Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod" makes whatever he says next have almost no credibility. Obviously you are half asleep when watching VODs or you just aren't bright enough to understand that when the video is centered on some beautiful attack savior is doing and then switches to savior's base where another army is being gathered savior is doing those at the same time. Savior has lings and mutas and lurkers and other shit running around all parts of the map and he barely even loses more than one ling before retreating them when attacked by a superior force, which is an easy example of incredible multitasking if you have ever actually played the game.
"Barely even loses more than one ling"? I guess you didn't watch Midas vs. Savior on Hitchhiker (first one) where Savior lost the game by constantly throwing away groups of units to little or no effect, or all the other times when he sloppily loses units when otherwise playing well. Of course he can multitask, but calling him the best multitasker ever (like the other guy did) is probably stretching it - every pro can multitask better than you or me but not every one is one of the absolute best.
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc.
how is it stretching it, i said he has the best multitask of any zerg ever, care to name one that is better at multitasking than savior?
NO zerg in the history of brood war defends multiple points, attacks, harasses, scouts, and builds all at once as well as savior does
and now you've changed your argument from "savior has average multitask" to "calling savior the best multitasker ever is probably stretching it" and you're still wrong
calling his multitasking and micro "average" is so ridiculous lol
I seriously can't understand anyone thinking Savior has some sort of super-good micro, July's is so much better it's crazy - just watch one try to ling rush, then watch the other. Maybe that's because Savior is spending more time on eco, but in that case he obviously doesn't have some sort of invincible multi-task either. Jeez, it's not like I'm trying to say Savior is bad, but the part of his play that impresses me isn't his micro (at least not in the technical sense - his tactical decision making/use of defiler is obviously very good most of the time, it's the implementation that doesn't always reach the absolute top level we've seen elsewhere).
Watching July muta-ling micro at his best and it's all "hell yeah, this is rape, how the hell did he kill so many M&M", watching Savior's muta-ling micro veers from "pretty good" to "please stop fucking up, Savior". (Savior is better than July for other reasons of course.)
Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod, but Savior wastes units with micro errors quite often, his muta harass is well below July's, his flanks are often slightly uncoordinated and hence less effective than they could be, etc.
Stop reading from here....
Stop living from here, you worthless cunt.
Dont be offended, kid. I'm so sorry but it's the fact that you are stupid. Sad but true.
Savior nonstop amazes me with his reaction speed all over the map while doing other stuff that every player needs to do. He *never* loses a defiler to irradiate without consuming 2 things and laying down an extra swarm before it does.
Savios multitasking is unparalelled for zerg players.
"i consider savior's decision making/use of defiler more impressive than his micro or multitasking"
is very different from
"savior has average micro and multitask" "savior wastes units with micro errors quite often" "savior has uncoordinated and ineffective flanks"
the first statement is an opinion and some people will agree with you. nobody is arguing that.
the second set of statements that you insist are true is just plain stupidity. anyone who has watched one savior game can tell you that.
ps use of defiler is micro, and "spending time on eco" is multitasking but whatever
pps i also disagree about july, savior and july have very comparable micro, one is not noticeably better than the other, "july is so much better it's crazy" is just not true
Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at. For someone to say he is not among the best at any of the fields of this game is blasphemy and isn't worth responding to for they are showing the utmost ignorance of this game.
(Maybe team play, but I highly doubt it from such a strategical master).
On February 25 2007 05:48 Hot_Bid wrote: how is it stretching it, i said he has the best multitask of any zerg ever, care to name one that is better at multitasking than savior?
NO zerg in the history of brood war defends multiple points, attacks, harasses, scouts, and builds all at once as well as savior does
and now you've changed your argument from "savior has average multitask" to "calling savior the best multitasker ever is probably stretching it" and you're still wrong
calling his multitasking and micro "average" is so ridiculous lol
Forget multitasking, my main thought has always been that his micro isn't that special by top pro standards. People just think it's good because they're blind to a players' flaws if that player is winning. It's the same with Nada not being that good at strategy - as long as he's winning people will talk like he's some kind of strategy god, basically out of fanboyism. Savior's raping him in this final shows that it's true though.
savior is the absolute best at defending vs cheese with drones+ling, splitting irradiated mutalisks, using defilers... not to mention everything else hes very good at like flanking harassing etc etc
how can someone who is the best at so many things have "average" or "not that special" micro, thats just ridiculous
On February 25 2007 05:55 MYM.Testie wrote: Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at.
I agree. My point all along in this thread is that Savior winning is better for SC than Nada winning because Savior is better at strategy rather than relying so much on mechanics.
On February 25 2007 05:55 MYM.Testie wrote: Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at.
I agree. My point all along in this thread is that Savior winning is better for SC than Nada winning because Savior is better at strategy rather than relying so much on mechanics.
"saviors strategy is better than his mechanics"
is very different from
"savior has average micro and multitask" "savior wastes units with micro errors quite often" "savior has uncoordinated and ineffective flanks"
On February 25 2007 05:58 MYM.Testie wrote: People think Nada isn't that good at strategy because of his interview on the matter.
If you've seen his games you'd know he's an excellent strategist. And he's shown that time and time again.
I've seen Nada's games since before he won an OSL, and while his strategy was good enough (and innovative, iirc) when he first came onto the scene, I feel it's fallen far behind. He does so many mindless dumb things - a small-scale example from the recent series was casting irradiate on some Ultras right after the marines next to them had just been plagued. At any rate for most of his career he's been more impressive for his macro and micro than anything else.
imo, a person/team's dominance in a sport is always a good thing. It would add enthusiasm to other players to strive more and try to defeat him/them. It would also add/renew the interest in an old sport /game. Just look at SKT1's dominance, it just made MBC's win sweeter and more fulfilling! Go saviOr!
On February 25 2007 05:55 MYM.Testie wrote: Savior is bad at nothing. There is no aspect of this game he sucks at.
I agree. My point all along in this thread is that Savior winning is better for SC than Nada winning because Savior is better at strategy rather than relying so much on mechanics.
"saviors strategy is better than his mechanics"
is very different from
"savior has average micro and multitask" "savior wastes units with micro errors quite often" "savior has uncoordinated and ineffective flanks"
If you actually pay attention to his games, all those things are true, except probably multitask which I just kind of threw in there. The reason I'm arguing this is because so many times watching Savior's games I've been frustrated/concerned at him unnecessarily losing shit to bad micro, only for him to win anyway. That doesn't happen nearly as much with July.
On February 25 2007 06:05 Hot_Bid wrote: so because perhaps ONE other zerg loses less units to bad micro Savior has "average" micro? how does that make sense
if he has average micro then there should be like 10+ zergs with better micro than him, please name them
Well, I was comparing him to all players, not just other Zergs. After all, the whole point of my comment in the first place is that he isn't as much of a micro/macro whore as Nada. Maybe I'm just holding him to overly high standards because he's so good in other areas, but I've never thought "wow, this Savior guy sure has good micro", with the possible exception of Defiler usage.
edit: Yellow[arnc] might have better micro too, for example, but I haven't watched enough of his games recently to be sure.
edit2: also, if the top micro is good enough/there's a big enough gap, it's possible for Savior to be in the top 5 and still be average.
On February 25 2007 05:39 boghat wrote: Just the fact that he said "Not sure about multitask without seeing a FPVod" makes whatever he says next have almost no credibility. Obviously you are half asleep when watching VODs or you just aren't bright enough to understand that when the video is centered on some beautiful attack savior is doing and then switches to savior's base where another army is being gathered savior is doing those at the same time. Savior has lings and mutas and lurkers and other shit running around all parts of the map and he barely even loses more than one ling before retreating them when attacked by a superior force, which is an easy example of incredible multitasking if you have ever actually played the game.
"Barely even loses more than one ling"? I guess you didn't watch Midas vs. Savior on Hitchhiker (first one) where Savior lost the game by constantly throwing away groups of units to little or no effect, or all the other times when he sloppily loses units when otherwise playing well. Of course he can multitask, but calling him the best multitasker ever (like the other guy did) is probably stretching it - every pro can multitask better than you or me but not every one is one of the absolute best.
Well you could say those were just bad decisions to attack rather than bad multi-tasking. Though I do remember that game he seemed to lose a fair amount of units because he didn't retreat but saying his multi-tasking is unbelievable or the best doesn't mean it's perfect. Obviously he makes multi-task mistakes sometimes but those sometimes are few and far between, especially lately.
You don't need to watch his games to know these things gravity. No one can get that far on great mechanics alone.
I have seen a few nada replays. But no, I do not watch any VODS I just read the live reports. Plus, that barracks move he did at blizzcon was a very pimp play.
On February 25 2007 06:06 gravity wrote: Well, I was comparing him to all players, not just other Zergs.
Well zerg players tend to have more units running around the map than other races and usually when they attack it's with more units. It's natural that it would seem like zerg players "carelessly" lose more units than other races when in fact it must be nearly impossible not to lose some random lings or lurkers here and there with everything that's going on. Terrans and protosses usually have their units grouped together more and their units are stronger so they don't lose them as often in a seemingly needless fashion.
On February 25 2007 06:12 MYM.Testie wrote: You don't need to watch his games to know these things gravity. No one can get that far on great mechanics alone.
I have seen a few nada replays. But no, I do not watch any VODS I just read the live reports. Plus, that barracks move he did at blizzcon was a very pimp play.
WTF, and people are calling *me* full of shit? Live reports tell you nothing (seriously, try reading a live rep then watching the VOD, you'll be amazed at how much is left out, glossed over, or poorly explained, which makes sense if you consider the circumstances). If you haven't seen the VODs you know crap about what Savior's micro is like, no matter how good you are or how much you think you know the tournaments that you don't even watch.
On February 25 2007 06:06 gravity wrote: Well, I was comparing him to all players, not just other Zergs.
Well zerg players tend to have more units running around the map than other races and usually when they attack it's with more units. It's natural that it would seem like zerg players "carelessly" lose more units than other races when in fact it must be nearly impossible not to lose some random lings or lurkers here and there with everything that's going on. Terrans and protosses usually have their units grouped together more and their units are stronger so they don't lose them as often in a seemingly needless fashion.
That's true but other Zerg players show it's possible to be considerably more efficient in battles on average, but Savior shows that you can win without that.
Gravity, I know what live reports are. I wasn't saying that's how I got information on the players. I was saying that's what I do since I do not watch vods / streams. If I went by live reports I might be the dumbest player alive because they're very basic and half the time they don't understand the true course in the game. Regardless, fun to read.
Also, playing people in the scene has actually helped gravity. I don't know how many times I need to stress this, but no Starleaguer is -> BAD <- at strategy or any aspect of this game.
As I said, i've seen a few replays. I've seen about 3-5 savior Replays, and probably 5-10 Nada replays plus watching his games from Blizzcon. I've seen games where Nada plays stupidly, I can agree but that is more out of stubborn-ness vs zergs to make his non-tank style work.
I can tell a lot about a persons game from watching it. They are both complete gamers who have pretty much every aspect of their game locked down tight.
On February 25 2007 06:22 MYM.Testie wrote: Gravity, I know what live reports are. I wasn't saying that's how I got information on the players. I was saying that's what I do since I do not watch vods / streams.
Also, playing people in the scene has actually helped gravity. I don't know how many times I need to stress this, but no Starleaguer is -> BAD <- at strategy or any aspect of this game.
I never said Savior was -> BAD <- at anything. Besides, bad is a relative term. There's bad for amateurs, bad for pros, and bad for OSL winners. Savior's micro is not that special for an OSL winner (although it's not ~~BAD~~), which is why him winning over Nada in this OSL is a good sign for the depth of Starcraft.
And the fact stands that if you don't watch VODs/reps (or play the specific player personally, which I doubt you've done in Savior's case), you don't really know what I'm talking about in regards to recent games.
As I said, i've seen a few replays. I've seen about 3-5 savior Replays, and probably 5-10 Nada replays plus watching his games from Blizzcon. I've seen games where Nada plays stupidly, I can agree but that is more out of stubborn-ness vs zergs to make his non-tank style work.
The problem with Nada is that he's good at anything that requires instinct but he doesn't really think at all. Sure, you can't have deep thought in the middle of an SC game, but a split-second of intelligent insight can make up for a lot. He has good instinct because he's been around for so long, but he has a tendency to persist with doing things mindlessly. His use of irradiate on ultras in dumb situations in the final is a recent example - he kept doing it just because it's the standard thing to do when you don't need to save it for Defilers, without realizing that he was just hurting himself.
I can tell a lot about a persons game from watching it. They are both complete gamers who have pretty much every aspect of their game locked down tight.
You sir, are not giving enough respect.
Obviously neither player has "every aspect of their game locked down tight" or they wouldn't lose any games (except for luck). All players have weaknesses relative to the level of competition that they play at.
Sorry to butt in... but I felt the need to just give my two cents...
I really disagree with the "savior not being efficient in battles" statement. True, he sacrifices lings, lurkers, mutas here and there but not being efficient?--NO He sacrifices them because he's just trying to delay/contain his opponent before he's able to execute his strategy and overruns his opponent. It's also true that sometimes his stategies backfire, but saying his not being efficient or someone's more efficient than him is outright false.
I don't mind savior, and i don't mind the fact that he dominates right now. I would mind if he wins all OSL and MSL for the next year, it would become boring. But even seeing the semis vs Iris I don't think thats going to happen, he will slip up at some point (I'm going to watch the finals now). Go sAviOr!
Gravity, two players can play a perfect game and there will still be a victor. Because you can still play perfect due to the knowledge you have. If they both had map hacks, that might be different.
I'm sure in the pro circuit it's happened way more than 50 times that two players have played a perfect 10 minute game. One player has to lose, after all.
gravity.. i agree with your last post. --> no i don't, you guys managed to write 16 comments while i wrote this. But how can you seriously say his micro isn't special? Did you see his last game against Iris?
The fact that it comes with amazing strategical depth and that sometimes he doesn't need more than simultanous 'Attack Move' to finish a game doesn't mean his mechanics "are average".
Just to add to this discussion I find savior to be spectacularly intriguing because as many people have mentioned, in terms of his mechanics/strategies/builds he doesn't stand out particularly. It's hard to say why he is so dominating-- other past dominating players, it was easy to identify their strengths. NaDa, oov, Boxer, July, etc. all had very identifiable strengths.
I think the answer of why he's so good is at least partly that there is none better in the intangible, psychological/mental parts of his game. The level of his play doesn't diminish significantly under pressure, he thrives in it. His decisionmaking is hardly ever rushed, and even in intense moments you'll find him choosing a path, usually a good one, and following it. So I must disagree with anyone who says he is boring, robotic, formulaic. No way in the world-- savior is a scout-react-instigate-react type of player. He finds holes, exploits them, and widens the hole. He's positively surgical in his play, as if his brain is able to analyze the game at half speed while he's playing, as if he's watched the replay of the game he's playing in. Has anyone noticed how savior always seems to have just the right amount of troops and mix? Again, as a fan, it's exciting to watch it unfold.
Also so much of his game is putting pressure on his opponent, and fucking with his mind, even when he's not necessarily attacking. 3 hatch before pool? That's pressure right there. Do early damage with muts then drone pump? Psychological warfare. In his series against NaDa, he used alot of speedlings early to constantly threaten to do early damage-- a step that alot of pros have skipped in the past b/c it slows tech/drone pump. He understands better than anyone the severe psychological threat of lurkers and mutas, and leverages the possibility of using them better than anyone out there now. Also he has such a pronounced mean streak, and positively delights in making a fool out of you. All this adds up to his opponents playing at least a little scared. It's silly how often you see his opponents play worse than normal against savior. That's a tribute to savior, and simply saying "NaDa sucked" doesn't do full justice to all the psychological warfare savior is conducting in the game, before the game, after the game, in interviews, etc. There's no doubt in my mind that NaDa lost game 4 at least partly due to the fact he got his CC infested in game 3. And part of the reason why the savior-iris semi was so much better than even the final is, imo, because Iris is not as affected by savior's intimidating mind games and image as other terrans, and he was able to play his game.
The only other gamer with this type of mental fortitude and out-and-out confidence, imo, is iloveoov. One of my favorite games in recent memory was that savior-iloveoov game on RoV where savior broke through that tremendous tank line-- it was truly a battle of wills, as if oov was saying, "fucking try to break through this," and savior answering, "ok you fuck i will with ultra filer crackling lurk."
I sincerely hope for more savior-oov games because this mental dialogue that happens in every high level game is most intriguing when those two are matched up.
I'd like to add that no, Savior is not a super-safe player, as jkillashark suggested. On the contrary, he plays very risky at times, he's lost a few games after not sunkening up in time etc. I think those things like refusing to build any sunkens or that 3 hatch pool he did vs Light, those are all examples of what uhjoo described, psychological warfare. A display of confidence bordering on arrogance.
amen! Thats why, imo, people hate him so much. He's able to play with your mind. You're playing your best and then saviOr does something that makes you think for a split-second and then BAM!, everything crumbles up.
I personally think savior's micro is the same, if not better than july's. The difference is that july's mutas actually attack marines and survive, while savior saves them. But july also makes attack click mistakes a lot, if you watch his recent OSL vods. The key difference though is that july's flanks are really really an art, if you see his lurk, ling, hydra army that pours into the terran, it is sooo organized and its just on another level. july has the best lurker flanking control, no doubt.Savior doesn't do this often, he buys times with a few lurkers, and to be honest it's more effective because I think savior has far better defiler control than july.
I was actually thinking of it the other day myself... how Savior's builds, mechanics, etc., don't seem to be anything particularly special, but he is always in control of the game, and always seems to know exactly where to go, what to build, how to position his troops, etc., he's the Maestro, controlling the game, with his pawns, err, opponents, doing exactly what he wants them to do, when he wants them to do it. I find that more impressive then others aspects a lot of players are known for.
yea uhjoo described it perfectly. I never thought of that reason why Iris gave such a good fight to savior. I still don't get how he won game 5, I wish I could see the replay but i guess it was just meant to be...
On February 25 2007 01:58 jkillashark wrote: sAviOr plays StarCraft so perfectly. That is why I don't like him being on the top.
WHAT??????
sAviOr plays Zerg so perfectly. I can't see how anybody could take more than 30% of games from him. He's just too good. He plays StarCraft so perfect hat it's BORING. Even the aggressive 9 pool build sAviOr manages to build a huge economy Zerg.
Zerg used to be about low eco high micro attacks. sAviOr with his perfect play has turned Zerg into a heavy macro race just like Terran and Protoss. sAviOr executes his micro perfectly just like all the other pros. His macro is the best of all the Zerg by far.
So why does he continue to bore me game after game? It's because he plays so safely. BoxeR excited the world with his amazing micro. He played such a flawful game and still won. He microed when the match was on the line. If he didn't dodge that lurker spine he could potentially lose the game. Having that on the line is what made his games so exciting. He played such a dangerous game of StarCraft and won. sAviOr plays such a safe way of StarCraft and wins. Goodness gracious how boring.
I think sAviOr is an amazing player. This doesn't mean I like to watch him. I think watching sAviOr is just boring. Cool, he has art defiler usage. Cool, his muta micro is like Shark/July. Cool, his scourge usage is crazy. Cool, he plays with an enormous economy.
sAviOr is amazing. Amazingly BORING. Having boring players own the crown is like having Italy as the World Cup champions again. (Italy plays some pretty boring football in my opinion. Oh and I'm not associating sAviOr as a defensive player because Italy plays boring defensive football. I'm just comparing them to him because they both bore me.)
I honestly think it's not good that he's number 1.
Your view is biased against the zerg race in general. Zerg can't have gosu overlord/hydra micro, and its near impossible to proxy, and almost as pointless. Defilers, mutas, and game control are the only enjoyable things about zerg, and you dont enjoy that?
And how can you say that savior playing with a "safe economy" and at the same time not be angry at oov, or even Nada who went Fast Expo EVERY SINGLE GAME in the finals?
I see nothing about the boring factor that people talk about. Most people might think its boring because the predictability is gone. Its like watching a spoiled VOD. I don't see it this way though. The game that brings the most attention to this fact is game one of the finals. I'm so used to every time the camera zooms back on saviors base, there is always another large army ready to go dismantle his opponent.
However until the end of the first game verse NaDa, I was always amazed at the sheer lack of numbers that savior was producing. It didn't matter how much or what units NaDa was bringing, whatever savior had to defend with, he always managed to do it! There was one instance in particular I think I remember him pushing back an entire force of terran units with only about 10 lings 2-4 lurkers and 1 defiler.
I watched in absolute amazement as the best player in the world who seemingly does not stand out in mechanics managed to place perfect swarms and made every right move to fend off attacks until he was ready to run around the map with tons of ultralisk. How psychologically threatening is that?
So you can call it talent, call it mind games, hell call it Starcraft's Divine Providence to bring Savior to the top. Savior plays the game at a higher level than anyone else right now, and I'm loving every minute of it.
On February 24 2007 23:05 rgfdxm wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that Savior is human. For these people, he is resented because of his dominant play, but this dominant play is never really credited to him. Savior is instead a force of nature interrupting the world of progaming and ruthlessly keeping "real" human progamers down, a scourge that stops the best of BW from winning. His composure during and after play makes him "robotic" and "inhuman," his builds "macro-whorish" and exploitative.
What I think more people should really realize is that Savior himself is a 20 year old kid. He wasn't granted some great gift from the heavens to be able to play BW. He worked damn hard to get where he is, and every aspect of his skills and strengths now was forged over years of practice and determination, just like a Ra or a Boxer or a July.
We all acknowledge what a daunting - no, terrifying experience it must be to get in front of a crowd of hundreds or thousands and even more on television, including family and friends, and be expected to play a lightning fast game of skill and concentration against what you know will be a world-class opponent. We acknowledge from the example of players like Midas or Canata that practice, skill, and dedication alone won't win you titles. Mental strength to me is the hallmark of Savior's style, and I see many people resent him for it when to me it is a thing to be respected, whether or not I like him, whether or not I like his games.
When Savior got on that stage opposite Nada a day ago, on maps known not to favor his race, playing against the most accomplished player in history, I don't understand how you could not give Savior some respect for his composure and beautifully consistent play. Savior's style is to make no mistakes, play for every small advantage he can get and let the mistakes of his opponent accumulate to spell their doom. I can understand that some people will find that more boring than, say, July's balls-to-the-wall aggressiveness. But that is why July is the God of War, and Savior the Maestro. Feel free to appreciate tactics over strategy or vice versa, but one is not more "inhuman."
I'm not especially a fan of Savior. I'm a very optimistic kind of person, and I enjoy seeing all players succeed. I would have been happy with any result of the semifinal matches. I can understand that other people would rather see some players win than others, but the outright dismissal of Savior as something other than human frustrates me. Those of you who demonize him, remember that he's put in the time, he developed his signature builds himself, he is elevating the play of his race to new heights. Imagine how it would be for you in Savior's position. Could you be as cool, as composed, as consistent as he is? Savior, name change or no, is still the same person, the same human, he was years ago as IPXZerg. His dominance is not a fact of life, it's a result of his growth as a player in every way.
There's no zerg master waiting for him back at CJ, ready to give him the new builds that win on maps like RT and Longinus 2 against players like Hwasin, Midas, Nada, no cheat sheet that gives him the answers. He's a man with a target on his back, doing his best and making it up as he goes along. If Savior's defiler use is godly, it isn't because God hates Nada, it's because Savior more than anyone around him realized the power of defilers and practiced his art to perfection. If you care to deride him for "drone-whoring," then I'll challenge you to a game of BW PvZ, but you're not allowed to make drones.
He was given the same tools as every other zerg in BW history, and I can't disdain him for seeing their potential in ways no one else has. Other players have done that before, and most of them are revered and respected. Those who hated Boxer and his dropships, Nada and his multitasking, oov and his macro are nowadays mostly gone. Those players contributed greatly to the game of BW and have masses of fans to show for it. Any of you who can still honestly not respect them now, feel free to disrespect Savior and pray for him to lose all his games and go back to being a nobody as IPXZerg. Then I'll know who not to pay attention to.
On February 25 2007 07:07 uhjoo wrote: Just to add to this discussion I find savior to be spectacularly intriguing because as many people have mentioned, in terms of his mechanics/strategies/builds he doesn't stand out particularly. It's hard to say why he is so dominating-- other past dominating players, it was easy to identify their strengths. NaDa, oov, Boxer, July, etc. all had very identifiable strengths.
I think the answer of why he's so good is at least partly that there is none better in the intangible, psychological/mental parts of his game. The level of his play doesn't diminish significantly under pressure, he thrives in it. His decisionmaking is hardly ever rushed, and even in intense moments you'll find him choosing a path, usually a good one, and following it. So I must disagree with anyone who says he is boring, robotic, formulaic. No way in the world-- savior is a scout-react-instigate-react type of player. He finds holes, exploits them, and widens the hole. He's positively surgical in his play, as if his brain is able to analyze the game at half speed while he's playing, as if he's watched the replay of the game he's playing in. Has anyone noticed how savior always seems to have just the right amount of troops and mix? Again, as a fan, it's exciting to watch it unfold.
Also so much of his game is putting pressure on his opponent, and fucking with his mind, even when he's not necessarily attacking. 3 hatch before pool? That's pressure right there. Do early damage with muts then drone pump? Psychological warfare. In his series against NaDa, he used alot of speedlings early to constantly threaten to do early damage-- a step that alot of pros have skipped in the past b/c it slows tech/drone pump. He understands better than anyone the severe psychological threat of lurkers and mutas, and leverages the possibility of using them better than anyone out there now. Also he has such a pronounced mean streak, and positively delights in making a fool out of you. All this adds up to his opponents playing at least a little scared. It's silly how often you see his opponents play worse than normal against savior. That's a tribute to savior, and simply saying "NaDa sucked" doesn't do full justice to all the psychological warfare savior is conducting in the game, before the game, after the game, in interviews, etc. There's no doubt in my mind that NaDa lost game 4 at least partly due to the fact he got his CC infested in game 3. And part of the reason why the savior-iris semi was so much better than even the final is, imo, because Iris is not as affected by savior's intimidating mind games and image as other terrans, and he was able to play his game.
The only other gamer with this type of mental fortitude and out-and-out confidence, imo, is iloveoov. One of my favorite games in recent memory was that savior-iloveoov game on RoV where savior broke through that tremendous tank line-- it was truly a battle of wills, as if oov was saying, "fucking try to break through this," and savior answering, "ok you fuck i will with ultra filer crackling lurk."
I sincerely hope for more savior-oov games because this mental dialogue that happens in every high level game is most intriguing when those two are matched up.
I'm also impressed with the quality of posts in this thread :D
Every time I watch/think about Savior, I can only make one analogy: NO STYLE.
I don't think he's always a defensive macro-monster, I don't think he's always aggressive or defensive, I think he's playing to the style of terrans and the maps. Have him play on a zerg map, and I bet he'd be a lot more aggressive. I think he's playing the perfect style to win matches right now. I suspect that he could play just about any style, and that's what makes him so good. Zerg is about flexibility, adaptation, and reaction. He understands that, and I think it's the key to his success.
Savior just has the best decision-making abilities in the game: where to use his APM, what units to get, when/where to attack, when/where to harass, when to power. Of course, his incredible use of defilers just completes his game.
Of course Savior has a style. It's called winning. It's called pissing people off because he is winning. "Haha, look at all these noobs hating me, trying their best to diss how I win. I can see through their lame attempts to intimidate me with their bashing. Losers. Cry some more."
Savior's dominance is awesome for programing. If a sport is full of .500 teams without a clear cut top-tier, now that would be boring.
savior's dominance or anybody else's dominance also proves that starcraft is not a game of luck but a competitive sport where skill and determination is more valued
I dont think the audience dislikes him. It seemed they were even cheering for Savior over NaDa in the OSL finals.
And I dont think his dominance is a problem, we have always had a player dominating for a while. Lol Boxer had what? 25 month as KeSPA #1? NaDa like 16 Months in a row? July dominated for a while too Iloveoov as well (and I recall people being mad at this one lol) Now, its just SaviOr's turn
Though, Im no Savior fan, lets just enjoy while it lasts. Hope a protoss will take the throne to be the first #1 toss in history :p hehe.
Savior himself doesn't bother me nearly as much as his fanboys.
It gets annoying after these countless posts of worshiping, putting him up on a pedestal, fawning over the littlest things he does and call them acts of god. All the morons jumping on the bandwagon as if Savior's win somehow reaffirms their own Broodwar skills.
Anyway, win or lose, I don't care. I'm just tired of the thread explodes into 5 pages of verbal diarrhea every time he moves a goddamn zergling.
I'm just glad finally a Zerg isn't fucked up the ass by Terran... again.
Shinhan3 OSL final was utter rape by Savior, but look at the semi-finals. Savior barely won the semi-finals 3-2. Savior played calm and solid, but his opponent pratically handed him the series through some major error on their part.
Suprisingly, there isn't many complaints on the number of Terran vs Terran semi-finals or Terran Starleague winners. However when a Zerg player wins it, it must be imbalance -_-.
On February 24 2007 20:50 Evilmonkey. wrote: Personally, I'm tired of him winning. I am so ready for someone to knock him of his throne. While I do respect him as a player, I would much rather see someone like rA or July winning.
As much as I like rA and July, the strategies that they are known for isn't good enough to win today's Starleague unless you want July to play a Savior-style.
On February 25 2007 13:51 [X]Ken_D wrote: Suprisingly, there isn't many complaints on the number of Terran vs Terran semi-finals or Terran Starleague winners. However when a Zerg player wins it, it must be imbalance -_-.
On February 25 2007 13:51 [X]Ken_D wrote: Suprisingly, there isn't many complaints on the number of Terran vs Terran semi-finals or Terran Starleague winners. However when a Zerg player wins it, it must be imbalance -_-.
On February 25 2007 05:49 gravity wrote: Watching July muta-ling micro at his best and it's all "hell yeah, this is rape, how the hell did he kill so many M&M", watching Savior's muta-ling micro veers from "pretty good" to "please stop fucking up, Savior". (Savior is better than July for other reasons of course.)
gravity you must be kidding me. you could argue that julys muta micro might be better, but there is no way julys is clearly better than saviors. i couldnt' find where you said that savior didnt kill much with his mutas, but anyway, you just dont understand what terrans have been doing recently vs savior. did you watch iris's builds in the semifinal? his build in most, if not ALL of those games were aimed at stopping muta harass. many rax early, super fast vessel tech. and then im pretty sure you didnt watch his games vs hwasin either. for example, the game on blitz, hwasin built like 200 turrets. when terrans do that, you're just not going to get many kills with your mutas.
did you ever watch his games vs oov? when those 2 first started playing, savior picked him apart with his muta micro.
I am going to refrain from voting in the poll or commenting on this, as I am currently fighting the urge to fly to Korea and rough Savior up on a daily basis. He needs to lose, and he needs to do it yesterday.
This is worse than Oov ever could have hoped to be.
EDIT: Just so you all know, yes this post is a joke, but I really do hate seeing him win.
i think everyone forgets how close savior was to losing vs hwasin, iris, and even midas and bifrost in the most recent OSL and MSL.
the fact that he wins so often in deciding game3's and game5's just shows how psychologically strong he is.
everyone else seems to feel the pressure in those situations and savior doesn't.
like michael jordan, tiger woods, and federer, he is the absolute BEST ace finisher, he always hits the game winning shot, wins on the final day, beats his opponent in the finals, etc.
someone needs to compile every savior boX and see his record in the final deciding games, it has to be something like 10-1
Savior plays safe in the sense that he is not inclined to follow a build that would cripple himself mid to late game, and that he is always looking to gain the most early game edge from adjusting the balance between power and econ. In this sense, savior's always living on the edge, building the fewest troops early and using them to the max to derive the most advantage for growth and power later on. He has excellent grasp of game mechanics and a sound strategy, which allows him to squeeze the edge very thin, especially in terms of tech timing. However, this also makes his games exciting during these crucial moments. The perfect timing, flanks, tech, all smoothly coordinated and yet still leaves us breathless by their precision. Especially in recent games, I think savior has been pushed to the edge a bit in these situations but has succeeded in these moments with planned but spectacular play. This is not boring, this is just art.
On February 25 2007 01:58 jkillashark wrote: sAviOr plays StarCraft so perfectly. That is why I don't like him being on the top.
WHAT??????
sAviOr plays Zerg so perfectly. I can't see how anybody could take more than 30% of games from him. He's just too good. He plays StarCraft so perfect hat it's BORING. Even the aggressive 9 pool build sAviOr manages to build a huge economy Zerg.
Zerg used to be about low eco high micro attacks. sAviOr with his perfect play has turned Zerg into a heavy macro race just like Terran and Protoss. sAviOr executes his micro perfectly just like all the other pros. His macro is the best of all the Zerg by far.
So why does he continue to bore me game after game? It's because he plays so safely. BoxeR excited the world with his amazing micro. He played such a flawful game and still won. He microed when the match was on the line. If he didn't dodge that lurker spine he could potentially lose the game. Having that on the line is what made his games so exciting. He played such a dangerous game of StarCraft and won. sAviOr plays such a safe way of StarCraft and wins. Goodness gracious how boring.
I think sAviOr is an amazing player. This doesn't mean I like to watch him. I think watching sAviOr is just boring. Cool, he has art defiler usage. Cool, his muta micro is like Shark/July. Cool, his scourge usage is crazy. Cool, he plays with an enormous economy.
sAviOr is amazing. Amazingly BORING. Having boring players own the crown is like having Italy as the World Cup champions again. (Italy plays some pretty boring football in my opinion. Oh and I'm not associating sAviOr as a defensive player because Italy plays boring defensive football. I'm just comparing them to him because they both bore me.)
I honestly think it's not good that he's number 1.
The more sAviOr games I see the more lame this sAviOr is boring argument is sounding. For a start there's the contention that he only plays macro -heavy games. In this season's MSL quarter-final against Justin he zergling-rushed him not once but twice! He also managed to win using guardians against Midas which these days is pretty damn rare. Of course, his favourite build is 3-hatch - muta harass which has been so effective. But look how many terrans throw out the same old FE- Sk terrran sci vessel abuse every single time. They've all become clones of each other. Against terran FE unless zerg also FE's they'll most of the time lose, which is only entertaining if you're a fan of the terran player. Its like zerg players are only meant to be entertaining when they try some risky strategy against a safe terran strat and lose. But this is what it comes down to really isn't it. Why can't people just admit the real reason they don't like him is because he took down some of their heroes? If you think game 5 vs Iris and game 1 vs Nada were boring perhaps you should be watching Warcraft.
I think what everyone's missing is that Savior is changing StarCraft in a way that Napoleon changed western warfare.
Savior never explicitly attacks or defends. He merely does what's necessary to extract a GG from his opponent. Sometimes attacking is how he defends his assets. Sometimes defending is how he further chokes his opponent.
The tactics haven't changed that much. July used Defilers and Mutalisks well before Savior. I had previously wondered why Zergs didn't use 3 Hatch Mutas more.
But Savior put it all together in a blend unlike anything anyone has ever seen before.
On February 25 2007 23:05 DTDominion wrote: I think what everyone's missing is that Savior is changing StarCraft in a way that Napoleon changed western warfare.
Partly true, though let's not forget that Napoleon's genius made him lose touch with reality towards the end of his rule, whereas Savior seems to have no such trouble.
Wow, some great input and some beautiful posts. I guess the consensis is that Savior is doing good things for the people watching at home. I do agree that he has the evil guy persona. Overall I still don't like his play, but I do enjoy watching others try to beat him. Hopefully in the upcoming MSL Bisu will show up and maybe give some hope to Protoss.
On February 26 2007 00:20 The Storyteller wrote: Partly true, though let's not forget that Napoleon's genius made him lose touch with reality towards the end of his rule, whereas Savior seems to have no such trouble.
Who says we're towards the end of saviors domination though? It's true most of the past greats have went into some kind of slump after taking their first OSL (apart from boxer), but we'll just have to wait and see if the same thing happens to savior aswell.
On February 25 2007 23:05 DTDominion wrote: I think what everyone's missing is that Savior is changing StarCraft in a way that Napoleon changed western warfare.
Savior never explicitly attacks or defends. He merely does what's necessary to extract a GG from his opponent. Sometimes attacking is how he defends his assets. Sometimes defending is how he further chokes his opponent.
The tactics haven't changed that much. July used Defilers and Mutalisks well before Savior. I had previously wondered why Zergs didn't use 3 Hatch Mutas more.
But Savior put it all together in a blend unlike anything anyone has ever seen before.
I think this is more of a result of timing and strategic balance than anything else. I'm sure savior would not waste one second of game time standing still, and he will attack when he has a certain advantage, and usually he will attack at the exact moment or crest of this advantage, making it seem like he is making limited strikes.
I'd say it's both good and bad for pro gaming. Sure it makes sense.
Right now, it may be a little bit boring. But, when someone does come along and smacks Savior around, it'll be huge. For instance, if Bisu somehow manages to beat Savior in the MSL finals, it will be the single greatest thing ever to happen.
There was a time when I thought Boxer would never lose and there was a time when I thought Oov would never lose. Guess what? They both started losing!
In as much as Boxer and Oov lost interest, they also forced the competition to grow stronger. People had to find ways to get better so they could beat the juggernauts of the time, and look where it has taken BW. Savior is soso good, but he won't win forever.
On February 25 2007 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote: its funny nobody was complaining about defiler balance until savior
if you watch the nada vs yarnc game where yarnc gets to defilers on the same map you will see how much stronger savior is in the other aspects instead of just abusing one unit.
savior's defiler use is the best of all time, but it's merely and end result of all the other stuff he does. he works and works and works to set himself up for those few defilers, and then counts on absolute perfect usage of them.
^ Word
I remember loads of people saying "but Nada won't lose his vessels like Midas/Hwasin/Iris did!"
But he did, twice. In both games that it really got to that level, he lost them. Even the first one he built in game one at his initial assault. This makes me wonder when people will see that it's not *luck* or even sloppiness on the terrans part most of the time. Savior sets up the most sick flank and as he takes out/engages the grouped army below while he plagues/scourges down almost a control group of vessels.
I'll stress it, he does practically *every* endgame vs terrans. That first game vs nada where he did the plague get irradiated, double consume plague again with which he got all the vessels just shows the kind of determination and punctuality which earns him those monster vessel kills. The man always have exactly the right number of scourges at the right time in the right places. you gotta give him some credit for that, and more then a bit imho.
The way he handles terran vessels makes his defiler usage just that much stronger and he prevails where other zergs crumble and die endgame to the endless torrent of irradiates which wears them down. Especially when the minerals start to run low or theres a comparatively low stream of income for both players.
Like Hot_Bid said, the man sets himself up for the strike. He starts working towards that coup de grace from the second he hatches in with those first 4 drones. He's a strategist, a general and not a hero .
I won't even go into the psychological aspect Savior brings to his games and how he totally ownz that shizznizzle. He forces people into making mistakes by his play, comments, everything. He is playing the match already when doing an interview or w/e for example in his mind. He grabs every opportunity he gets to influence his opponent with both hands and WORKS it.
P.s. I totally found myself in that comment that Savior doesn't have a definable style. I'd define his play more as " intuitively" and " reactively" with the maps and his opponent in mind. Savior plays versus someone, while most people play themselves and the way they are and how their style develloped. It's a kind of superfluous instinctive playstyle, and imho it's really suiting to the race in question.
After watching Game 1 vs Nada on longinus Savior is crazy. He really controls like the whole game. He lets Nada do his thing but Nada is not really playing his game hes playing Savior's game. And longinus is considred a bad map for zergs but Savior changes it. And his attacks are so effective with the right amount of units. And how he ended the game a drop on 5 a drop on Nada's main and attacking his min only at the same time. That was a gg finishing blow right there. And even though his muta harass doesnt do anything. And what makes his zvt crazy is how he gets rid of science vessels. Nada had so much vessels but two plagues. His defense is perfect. I dont think any top pro has a winning advantage against Savior. Besides chojja there is no player who has beaten him in a bo5. And he is so calm throughout the whole game. His game vs. Iris was nonstop. His multitask was unhuman. I love Bisu but hes gonna be slaughtered 0-3 or at most 1-3.
mr.Sephirot has got a word he is human and he will fuck it up, at least he will definitly loose bo5. I am thinking especialla of all the good zvz out there. And I still trust in Casy, Iris (even though he just recently lost - but he fucking impressed me. I really expect much from him. 3-2 isn't a clear victory...-it could have swung both ways...yeah, yeah I know "could") and maybe and I really hope oov to come back. I am hoping that he after his 0-7 steak he finally found the way to beat savior.
A thing to saviors muta harrasment: It is for sure not as spectacular and game instant game winning as july's was, but if you watch his play you can't get rid of the feeling, that he is just keeping pressure on his opponent, keep him in his base, while the evil zerg has map control and can grab another expansion. He wants his mutalisks to be a thread as long as possible and therefor he sacrifice some kills, but he doesn't take any risk of loosing some of his force. I watched some savior replays and saw him muta harrassing and just thought: "hu, why didn't he killed this marine or this scv?"
Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
So here are my thoughts...
On Dominance
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
In the end it will have to be about terran changing their minds about disposable armies. Savior is very good at saving and retreating units, while the vast majority of terran players make an army, attack, lose it, and use their next one. They dont unseige tanks under swarm, and they dont repair vessels. With almost 400 apm, NaDa should be able to do that.
In addition, while some minor terrans have adjusted by making firebats, NaDa lost game one because of it. Time and again savior defended with minimal lurkers and swarm. A round of 7 firebats from the barracks rather than 7 marines + some dmatrix from his mass of vessels would have won NaDa that game.
Terrans need to adapt. I was impressed by NaDas mechanics in the series, but not by his brains. He never stood a chance.
Savior winning is cool and all since he is a fucking beast, but he should take a break after he wins the upcoming MSL final to make things exciting again.
I want to see Reach winning a league again now. Or July.
Nada please dont enter another 2 year slump next OSL.
On February 26 2007 16:01 Manifesto7 wrote: In the end it will have to be about terran changing their minds about disposable armies. Savior is very good at saving and retreating units, while the vast majority of terran players make an army, attack, lose it, and use their next one. They dont unseige tanks under swarm, and they dont repair vessels. With almost 400 apm, NaDa should be able to do that.
In addition, while some minor terrans have adjusted by making firebats, NaDa lost game one because of it. Time and again savior defended with minimal lurkers and swarm. A round of 7 firebats from the barracks rather than 7 marines + some dmatrix from his mass of vessels would have won NaDa that game.
Terrans need to adapt. I was impressed by NaDas mechanics in the series, but not by his brains. He never stood a chance.
See, when I told people Nada was more mechanical of a player than a strategist, I got flamed for it. I hope people see what I mean now ._.
Christ, this reminds me, of how badly i want YellOw to win a damn fucking final in his life..GOD.
On February 26 2007 16:58 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Nada was completely, utterly broken after the first game of that series. Savior just walked through him like he wasn't even there.
On February 26 2007 16:58 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Nada was completely, utterly broken after the first game of that series. Savior just walked through him like he wasn't even there.
It was a beautiful thing to watch.
It was a terrible thing to watch
It was a beautiful and terrible thing to watch, like a natural disaster on the National Geographic Channel.
On February 26 2007 15:58 VerticalHorizon wrote: Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
So here are my thoughts...
On Dominance
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov,.... Savior
i BELIEVE sir, I BELIEVE!
This is really a great post. I also felt that way after game 1. Watching it you simply knew that NaDa had used up everything inside him, and that there was nothing left. I really feel like that was the best game of the whole tournament. Could NaDa have won? Sure, had he made some adjustments, added some firebats, used his dropship earlier I think he would have pulled it out. However, he fought the NaDa way, the way he HAD to win in order to truely defeat Savior, and found himself lacking.
Savior is here, but for how long? That is really the answer.
On February 26 2007 16:01 Manifesto7 wrote: In the end it will have to be about terran changing their minds about disposable armies. Savior is very good at saving and retreating units, while the vast majority of terran players make an army, attack, lose it, and use their next one. They dont unseige tanks under swarm, and they dont repair vessels. With almost 400 apm, NaDa should be able to do that.
In addition, while some minor terrans have adjusted by making firebats, NaDa lost game one because of it. Time and again savior defended with minimal lurkers and swarm. A round of 7 firebats from the barracks rather than 7 marines + some dmatrix from his mass of vessels would have won NaDa that game.
Terrans need to adapt. I was impressed by NaDas mechanics in the series, but not by his brains. He never stood a chance.
Good post. I remember the days where that initial group of MnMs were so important to the 1 base terrans. I really think terran players need to show more variety in their builds vs Savior. They're far too predictable and easy for him to counter atm. 1 base terrans are often harder to play as there are more options you have to think about such as dropship ferry, quick tank, mnm sunk busters etc.
Hopefully we'll see some more diverse terran play as a result of Saviors play.
I think that one of the scary things about Savior is, that he looks unbeatable. He just masters everything 4-7pool, 9pool everything, cheesing never works against him. And on top of that he got nearly perfect micro and macro, perfect unit controll everything. He got that amazing understanding of the game, and perfect adapting style. He just master it all, it makes him look so perfect. So by looking at his play, there just doesn't seem to be any way to beat him. You cant just cheese him, you can't just pull out some weird bo that noone's ever seen. You have to do it the hard way, and just beat him skillwise (kinda like Iris did/tried), and since he is as good as he is, it'll take everything you got (I think that the Hwasin, Iris and Nada games showed that perfectly) to take him down. Or you have to be lucky (like Nada was with the one game he took in the finals), and hope that savior makes a huge mistake before he gets to hive tech.
Savior is just to good to be true, that's why people dislike him - They know that he will only be beaten if he starts slumping.
Weird, I actually only wanted to write a few lines :p.
On February 26 2007 15:58 VerticalHorizon wrote: Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
So here are my thoughts...
On Dominance
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
On February 26 2007 15:58 VerticalHorizon wrote: Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov,.... Savior
This is one huge and good post! I was thinking the same about it, when I saw how ppl hate oov - the greatest player of all the time. Too bad he lost his motivation I hope Savior can be a good motivation for him again. Next superfight oov vs savior please!
On February 26 2007 15:58 VerticalHorizon wrote: Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
Boxer, NaDa, iloveoov,.... Savior
This is one huge and good post! I was thinking the same about it, when I saw how ppl hate oov - the greatest player of all the time. Too bad he lost his motivation I hope Savior can be a good motivation for him again. Next superfight oov vs savior please!
Nah. Savior vs Midas would be fun. I wanna see Midas choke and then cry. LOL Savior is da man. And Midas the girl.
On February 26 2007 15:58 VerticalHorizon wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Hmm... I have a lot of words to say on the subject... I'll try to organize them as best as I can. I've been a fan of Savior for a looooong time now... ever since I saw a realllly old game of him as IPXZerg vs. a relatively famous terran on LT, and he went 3 hatch straight defiler and won on pure defiler usage alone... I thought it showed tremendous skill and balls for a Zerg to pull that kind of play.
So here are my thoughts...
On Dominance
It's funny when I see a lot of people hating Savior for reasons like "he is so dominating" or "he takes the competitive fun out of BW" or "he wins TOO much... he is like a robot" - it's amusing because these are the EXACT same things people said when Boxer began to dominate. Do any of you guys remember that far back? Those years... late 2000, 2001, 2002.... when Boxer began his meteoric rise to legendary status... there was SO much controversy back then, too. People were crying about how lame Boxer was compared to Grrr..., how he was simply a soulless machine who just practice 10 hrs a day, how he wasn't a true people's champion like Grrr..., how he wasn't FUN or COOL like Grrr.... Almost every hardcore Grrr fan HATED Boxer for taking his rightful throne...
Now he is the Emperor. He needs no introduction. 99% of BW fans smile when they see him and they carry him in their hearts whenever and wherever he is, whether he is in the army or entering the stage for an official match.
It's funny because when a young teen burst into the scene, powered through a series of MSL victories, and destroyed his opponents to challenge Boxer for the next title of Terran God... flaunting the title NaDa (which in Korean translates loosely to "IT IS I" or "Here I am")... there was controversy then too. People argued, saying "he is simply machine" "he is just produce, macro, attack" "he does not have the heart of a true emperor."
It's funny because when a young man, handpicked by the Emperor himself to succeed him, to be his heir, to rule the kingdom of BW... when such a man rose to his rightful station, destroying all his opponents (whether they were Protoss, Terran, or Zerg), fucking humiliating NaDa, and taking his place by ripping the crown from the hands of his own mentor Boxer.... the Terran war-machine iloveoov, he too was hated and hot debate raged over him. People made SCATHING remarks, made horrible fun of his ugly looks, of his brutish appearance. Haters said "this one is even more robotic and machine-like than NaDa" "he has no brilliance" "he is just epitome of macro, he takes the FUN out of SC."
There is no doubt that Savior is THE premier dominant player in the BW scene today. And as I read the remarks that all these anti-Savior fans make, I can't help but think how similar this young man is, to the great gods of BW who came before him. He is like the great new storm that approaches, and controversy and argument, hate and love, passion and conflict rage about him as he ASCENDS to his throne.
Before you compare him so quickly to the great ones before him, saying that he is not at all like Boxer, or NaDa, or iloveoov, you guys should take a moment to remember how much of a stir those three caused when they made their entrances onto the pro scene.
On Style
Savior is the closest thing to the perfect Zerg you will ever see. Those who say that he is not as "cool" as other Zergs (such as July or Gorush or Yellow) because he has no "style" are not fully understanding what is going on.
July is God of War because that is how he MUST be. He cannot make the switch to perfect macro/reactionary play at such a high level, so instead he plays toward the strengths he has -> taking the initiative, forcing fights, battling in micro and tactics. Yellow is Storm Zerg because he MUST be. He does not have the lategame control or multi-tasking skill to play a mass-expo game, so he powers to hive tech and wins on small-numbers control and micro tricks.
Savior is limitless. If July is God of War and Gorush is Wizard of Management and Yellow is the Storm Zerg, then Savior is simply God of Zerg. Why? Because he has shown, without a doubt, the ability to play any and every style of Zerg ever conceived.
You think July is superior to Savior because you see Savior taking 3-4 gas every game? If Savior desires, he can play the small unit control game. Don't be so naive... Savior has demonstrated time and again that he has the unit control, the micro, and the timing to play an aggressive game like July. He is the ESSENCE of Zerg, he adapts to each map, and he exploits his race's strength on every map according to the necessities of the situation.
His style is the style of a true champion. He is not limited to one "brand" of strategy... he does what is necessary to win, and he does it as close to perfectly as we have yet seen. His style reminds me of only two people...
Boxer and NaDa
You know why? Because these two are also the only two great ones in the history of BW to show the adaptive skill and possess the fluid potential to play any and every style. You guys are ignorant if you think Boxer and NaDa also stuck ONLY to one style. Boxer realized that his micro-oriented style of play was WEAK against modern Protoss, and one year later, we see him forcing macro games and playing the fast expo openings. Yes, he uses micro builds too... but THAT is not a reflection of his "one style." It is just a REMINDER to us, that he can use both micro AND macro builds... that he can win on R-Point with timed macro pushes and he can win on Requiem with 8rax.
And NaDa... haha... when I saw him dominate IOPS, I thought "this is a Terran who is like water." Because NaDa is like Savior... he has no style. He simply has the unlimited skill and potential to play any style he chooses and deems necessary. We have seen cheese builds, we have seen macrofests... he plays as is necessary.
Just like Savior. 9pool, 3 hatch, muta harass, lurkling, hydralurk, defiler... low-eco, high-eco... mass expo, cautious expo... fast tech... Savior's style can't be defined and I think that's part of what pisses people off. Because when you can DEFINE something, it means you can UNDERSTAND it, like how people can understand July's style. But you can't completely 100% understand Savior, because he is fluid. He is water. He is the liquid Zerg who can boil, steam, crush, or wear down any opponent and fit through any crack.
On His Victory over NaDa
I think people forget just how hard Savior's Royal Road has been. He BLED against Midas. Iris PIERCED him cruelly in the semis. Savior's has had a hard road indeed. Yet against NaDa, he pretty much dominated.
Now, people might argue, say that NaDa had a bad day, NaDa could take Savior any other day, blah blah blah. People get angry when they think about NaDa losing to Savior. But I don't know why you should. Because it seemed inevitable to me...
When I watched the introduction to Savior vs. NaDa, I was uncertain. Then I saw Game 1 and in the course of it, I was even more confused. I saw two amazing SPIRITS battling each other. Previously, when I mentioned water, I should have said that water dominates anything and everything. It will drown, crush, grind, slip, and wear down anything. But what happens when water terran fights water zerg? What happens when two masters of their craft battle?
It comes down to will and it comes down to sheer FORCE. It comes down to what Um Jae-Kyung (fat commentator on the right, the "Overlord") calls "ki" (an ancient Asian term). It is what is called "spirit energy" or "life force." Game 1 of the OSL Shinhan 3 Finals was a battle of ki. It was a war between the two players' FORCES. And I saw that Savior's ki was unflinching, it had pure confidence, it did not bow down before NaDa. But when I saw NaDa, I saw, at first, arrogant strength... then doubt... then the Terran master's ki was scattered.
Watch Game 1. You see NaDa's force. It is so obvious and rampant on the field. If I was a SC unit on that battlefield, I would crawl in a hole to hide from the Terran commander's strength of WILL. But Savior was like true water... when NaDa's force was too strong, he flowed past it. When NaDa was weak, he pounded at him like waves. NaDa's FORCE began to falter. And Savior won.
That's when I knew Savior would win the series. Never mind the result of Game 2. The Bo5 match ended at Game 1. Because NaDa's force was broken in Game 1. And that's when people should have seen that you cannot get angry at Savior. Because his time had come.
Don't get angry about Shinhan 3. It was simply... Savior's coronation. Do you cry and wail and curse when the young prince takes the king's crown? No. Because that's the natural order of things.
NaDa was and still is a great king. He is one of those timeless kings, like Boxer, who always has the heart of the people, who can take his crown back at any time.
But not that day. And I don't think, not for a while yet. Because it is, as I have said, Savior's time. When a meteor crashes onto the Earth, it is not welcomed with open arms. It burns through the heat of the atmosphere and EXPLODES onto the surface... Like Savior has... like all who have come before him have.
I think the one thing that people forget about the Longinus game is that Savior was able to get a double gas expansion, which allowed him to defend far less territory than he "should" have had to.
Not denying Savior's brilliance or NaDa's lack of strategic and tactical vision, but I think it's worth pointing out.
Also, Verticle Horizon's post was damned good in terms of pointing out what happened. I think though that JulyZerg could definitely play a more macro oriented style if he wanted, but he doesn't make that choice. JulyZerg's lesser strategic vision is definitely on display though when you notice how he will play very large percentages of the game with only his main base rather than looking for an opportune time to expand. It's not that other players can't play other styles at a top level, but that they lock themselves into their own styles and their ability to diversify lessens due to rust rather than ability.
Also, Manifesto's post on battle tactics is so true. Watch Midas's game vs. Savior on hitchiker. Even though Savior was a bit off there's no denying that Midas's play in that game, particularly his troop management, was incredible.
Also, people don't give OOv enough credit. Even though defensive games of SC had been played before OOv, pre-OOv StarCraft was seen as a function of when to attack, whereas OOv showed that defense can be a means of strengthening your position. I don't want to say that without OOv Savior wouldn't exist, because Savior might have formulated his play style on his own, but OOv's style was definitely the precursor to Savior's style.
Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate.
Also I wanted to comment on what Gravity said. Something along the lines of Savior having sub par micro for top pro gamers but winning because of his deflier usage being better than anyone else. What the fuck do you think defilier usage is? Thats right...Micro. Please shh.
Agaist heavy defier user like savior, I think terrans just have to learn to repair their vessles after plag. and sepearate medic from marines when they are plaged to save some manas. I don't think it's that hard.
Well, there is a "restoration" medic ability after all. But even with it used, plague still would be a counter to vessel raids(vessel movement apart from army), and they still will have a hard time irradiating defiliers, and preventing that is what plague is generally about.
On February 28 2007 01:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate.
Well the reason why Savior's so good ZvP is that he just doesn't ever make any strategical errors if given all the correct information, which is always receives in ZvP because of his scouting lords. No Protoss can surprise him like a Terran can, because he knows exactly what a Protoss is doing, and thus Savior will always have the correct number of units or counters. Add to that his mistake-free micro and hes almost invincible.
uhjoo brought to my attention an interesting thing about Savior after that long, back-and-forth game vs Nada in the 3rd Superfight: when Savior was asked what made the difference in that game, a 40-minute, back and forth, mine out the map game, Savior said, "I had an undiscovered overlord at a critical position."
Highways is only person who understand that terran is hella boring. Terrans wins are so boring that I cannot remember a single game where I enjoy such a win. Toss and zerg give this game a soul. Terran is a race for hating . Respect to Highways, no 1. terran hater. I am no. 2. GoGoGo Savior!
Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
I don't think there has ever been a lack of zerg players. And they had always been doing pretty good even befor savior. The only difference is that savior is able to win TvZs like never befor.
On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote: Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
What have you been smoking son?
Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either.
On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote: Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
What have you been smoking son?
Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either.
Arkanoid is FINE, Zerg has nearly 90% win rate on it IIRC.
HH is alright. Zerg has well over 50% ZvT, not sure about ZvP.
On February 28 2007 10:20 starter[eTel] wrote: Savior in terms of dominance would be good. Players needs to improve to dominate Savior. His Zerg plays are somewhat standard but a little bit of GoRush-style which in mid-game blasts with Macromanagement.
Also, at this moment, Zerg players got the courage to stand up since most of the maps are on their point.
What have you been smoking son?
Longinus, Desert Fox, Reverse Lost Temple sup? Hitchhiker and Arkanoid are far from being great either.
Arkanoid is FINE, Zerg has nearly 90% win rate on it IIRC.
HH is alright. Zerg has well over 50% ZvT, not sure about ZvP.
Actually, in teh case of Arkanoid, the statistics were single-handedly changed by Savior. It was a clear Terran-favored map... until Savior went on his undefeated streak on it, thus drastically changing the percentages around (as a new map, it hadn't been played too often). Ironically, his winning streak ended vs. NaDa, another Terran.
On February 28 2007 01:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Savior is the Bruce Lee of Starcraft(by the way you should read his book, its fantastic). Jeet Kune Do Zerg. The style of no style. He is water, he flows or he crashes. He is the softest straw, flexible, unbreakable. He understands exactly what combat (even simulated combat) is all about. Perfect adaptation. Of course it's not truly perfect because broodwar is a partial knowledge game, but he does it better than anyone else. That is why he is so dominate.
Well the reason why Savior's so good ZvP is that he just doesn't ever make any strategical errors if given all the correct information, which is always receives in ZvP because of his scouting lords. No Protoss can surprise him like a Terran can, because he knows exactly what a Protoss is doing, and thus Savior will always have the correct number of units or counters. Add to that his mistake-free micro and hes almost invincible.
uhjoo brought to my attention an interesting thing about Savior after that long, back-and-forth game vs Nada in the 3rd Superfight: when Savior was asked what made the difference in that game, a 40-minute, back and forth, mine out the map game, Savior said, "I had an undiscovered overlord at a critical position."
If I'm not mistaken, that quote is from the game on Tau Cross in which savior caught him with his pants down when he saw an opening thanks to the overlord above the natural choke. It wasn't a mine-out-map game at all IIRC.
So I guess Kennigit was right. Raped by Bisu. Protoss has never beaten a Zerg in starleague finals before. And now Bisu does it on a royal road against the seemingly most dominant player ever at his seemingly peak. Lets pray Bisu will be the new long awaited Protoss pride!
actually this is really enjoyable, with the big Horizon post, Mani believe, and in general all the discussion about what terran could possibly take down Savior. He shows again and again that he takes out Midas and Nada.
People did not consider Bisu! Savior was SO dominated. I am looking forward to seeing all the whining that Nada fans has been critizised about. I higly doubt that savior fans will settle with this one BO before they have to admit that Bisu can pwn him hard!
On March 07 2007 05:20 Blue wrote: So I guess Kennigit was right. Raped by Bisu. Protoss has never beaten a Zerg in starleague finals before. And now Bisu does it on a royal road against the seemingly most dominant player ever at his seemingly peak. Lets pray Bisu will be the new long awaited Protoss pride!
actually this is really enjoyable, with the big Horizon post, Mani believe, and in general all the discussion about what terran could possibly take down Savior. He shows again and again that he takes out Midas and Nada.
People did not consider Bisu! Savior was SO dominated. I am looking forward to seeing all the whining that Nada fans has been critizised about. I higly doubt that savior fans will settle with this one BO before they have to admit that Bisu can pwn him hard!
Im not going to agree with that, theres alot of stuff to be said about style. Think about it this way: Savior uses simple strategies, its all based around 3hatch muta vs terran, and he plays vs P and Z very similar to how he plays vs T (atleast for his begining strategies). Bisu on the other hand plays very complex strategies contoured to the matchup. Savior has had a busy schedual, and Bisu had a vacation.
On March 07 2007 05:20 Blue wrote: So I guess Kennigit was right. Raped by Bisu. Protoss has never beaten a Zerg in starleague finals before. And now Bisu does it on a royal road against the seemingly most dominant player ever at his seemingly peak. Lets pray Bisu will be the new long awaited Protoss pride!
actually this is really enjoyable, with the big Horizon post, Mani believe, and in general all the discussion about what terran could possibly take down Savior. He shows again and again that he takes out Midas and Nada.
People did not consider Bisu! Savior was SO dominated. I am looking forward to seeing all the whining that Nada fans has been critizised about. I higly doubt that savior fans will settle with this one BO before they have to admit that Bisu can pwn him hard!
It's true that Savior lost. Congratulations to Bisu.
However, that bo5 says almost nothing about Savior. It ONLY shows that Bisu can compete with the big boys. That's IT.
The finals were too complex of a scenario for anyone to take any serious conclusions from them. Savior was just finishing his OSL Finals and had to IMMEDIATELY begin MSL practice, Bisu went on vacation, etc.
We'll see what happens. Savior might have lost, but he's still THE player to beat on the scene today. If you want my personal belief, I would not put it past Savior to take both OSL and MSL next season. This was his first time reaching both finals simultaneously AND his first OSL appearance and, no matter how awesome a player he is and how strong he is mentally, it is hard for a player to deal with these kind of dual challenges. Next season, he'll be ready.
Even though i dont like sav, 1 series doesnt mean bisu can own him. Just means everything was going his way. Then again sav fanboys have to give bisu credit for those 3 wins
On March 07 2007 12:55 oshibori_probe wrote: Savior has had a busy schedual, and Bisu had a vacation.
whine whine : )
On March 07 2007 13:41 VerticalHorizon wrote: However, that bo5 says almost nothing about Savior. It ONLY shows that Bisu can compete with the big boys. That's IT.
The finals were too complex of a scenario for anyone to take any serious conclusions from them. Savior was just finishing his OSL Finals and had to IMMEDIATELY begin MSL practice, Bisu went on vacation, etc.
We'll see what happens. Savior might have lost, but he's still THE player to beat on the scene today. If you want my personal belief, I would not put it past Savior to take both OSL and MSL next season. This was his first time reaching both finals simultaneously AND his first OSL appearance and, no matter how awesome a player he is and how strong he is mentally, it is hard for a player to deal with these kind of dual challenges. Next season, he'll be ready.
whine whine : ) but I agree that he is still the player to beat. Just thought it funny that it needed a toss to beat him bo5.
yes it is sort of ironic that while everyone was speculating and watching every terran in the world try and fail against savior, a toss came and pounded him in such a manner.
but wtf about the vacation. i can't see how people are using it as a reason for bisu's win. im sure if bisu lost, everyone would be on his ass about taking a vacation instead of practicing.
Bisu himself said his ability to rest and relax on vacation, where Savior had to go from one finals to the next without a break was a big reason he won. If you have an issue with that take it up with him
EPT
