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On April 15 2013 00:54 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:45 amaDeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, UHHHHM WAT? Naruto? Naruto doesnt have any sidecharacters that got much shinetime except gaara. Uhm, no offence but are we talking about the same manga? Team 10 got pretty much an entire arc for themselves, to give just one example.
First of all, quit the argument allready, it'll boil down to "hurr durr I like this manga better than the other" and then it'd go to majority role (where I ahve no doubts in OP winning) and then someone is gonna be annoyed..
edit: had other thoughts
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On April 15 2013 00:54 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:45 amaDeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, UHHHHM WAT? Naruto? Naruto doesnt have any sidecharacters that got much shinetime except gaara. Uhm, no offence but are we talking about the same manga? Team 10 got pretty much an entire arc for themselves, to give just one example.
i guess this is offtopic but... i didnt see any character development. true. they kicked hidans and kakuzu to the neverlands but actually..thats it.
what about neji? lee? tenten? hinata besides attempted suicide vs pain?shino? kiba?
i mean..naruto got more and more powerups, same with sasuke. none of the other characters even have any impact on the story.
whatever. this is not the topic :3
didnt see OP film z yet. lets see :>
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On April 15 2013 01:15 amaDeus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:54 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 15 2013 00:45 amaDeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, UHHHHM WAT? Naruto? Naruto doesnt have any sidecharacters that got much shinetime except gaara. Uhm, no offence but are we talking about the same manga? Team 10 got pretty much an entire arc for themselves, to give just one example. i guess this is offtopic but... i didnt see any character development. true. they kicked hidans and kakuzu to the neverlands but actually..thats it. what about neji? lee? tenten? hinata besides attempted suicide vs pain?shino? kiba? i mean..naruto got more and more powerups, same with sasuke. none of the other characters even have any impact on the story. whatever. this is not the topic :3 didnt see OP film z yet. lets see :>
Neji got character development during the fight with Naruto but everyone else is pretty much the exact same
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On April 15 2013 00:58 AsnSensation wrote:
yeah and how is that any different from the entire water7/enies lobby being based around Robin?
Afa Robin is concerned the water7/enies lobby arc is her backstory arc. It comes after her joining the crew similarly to how Nami's backstory arc (Arlong Park) came after she had already joined the crew. My counter question is: how many arcs has she gotten since then? How many has Nami gotten since Arlong Park? Has Sanji even mentioned All Blue in the last, I don't know, 200 chapters? Usopp got a pretty good arc in water7/enies lobby with letting go of the Going Merry, but that's the exception and not the rule for One Piece.
If you see these great character arcs for the non-strawhat wearing Strawhat Pirates then all the power to you I guess. But all I see is supporting cast who get one awesome introductionary backstory arc and that's it. I don't want to claim the character progression in shows like Naruto doesn't from time to time *cough*sasuke*cough* really suck, but it is there.
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On April 15 2013 01:18 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:58 AsnSensation wrote:
yeah and how is that any different from the entire water7/enies lobby being based around Robin? Afa Robin is concerned the water7/enies lobby arc is her backstory arc. It comes after her joining the crew similarly to how Nami's backstory arc (Arlong Park) came after she had already joined the crew. My counter question is: how many arcs has she gotten since then? How many has Nami gotten since Arlong Park? Has Sanji even mentioned All Blue in the last, I don't know, 200 chapters? Usopp got a pretty good arc in water7/enies lobby with letting go of the Going Merry, but that's the exception and not the rule for One Piece. If you see these great character arcs for the non-strawhat wearing Strawhat Pirates then all the power to you I guess. But all I see is supporting cast who get one awesome introductionary backstory arc and that's it. I don't want to claim the character progression in shows like Naruto doesn't from time to time *cough*sasuke*cough* really suck, but it is there.
they do show they havent given up on there dream (like at little garden Usopp talks about how the giants are his goal and before the time skip Zoro talks about surpassing mihawk) its just most of there goals there arent really important steps they need to take its all passive, Nami is mapping as she goes, Usopp and Zoro are getting stronger
only way to show they still care about there dream would be for them to constantly talk about it all the time which would get damn annoying
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10387 Posts
I only skimmed through OP Film Z, so I mightve missed an important plot detail regarding this, but ... + Show Spoiler +why didn't luffy just use haki from the beginning in his fight against Z? It looked like he just used it at the very end of the last fight ..
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On April 15 2013 01:03 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:54 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 15 2013 00:45 amaDeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, UHHHHM WAT? Naruto? Naruto doesnt have any sidecharacters that got much shinetime except gaara. Uhm, no offence but are we talking about the same manga? Team 10 got pretty much an entire arc for themselves, to give just one example. First of all, quit the argument allready, it'll boil down to "hurr durr I like this manga better than the other" and then it'd go to majority role (where I ahve no doubts in OP winning) and then someone is gonna be annoyed.. edit: had other thoughts
I guess you're right. But tbh it's really sad. I'm not saying any of the shows I listed are better than One Piece, or even that I like them more. We really should be able to talk about a series without having to say it's either ambrosia in manga form or literally the worst thing ever written. There are things One Piece does, and things it doesn't. There are other series which do things One Piece doesn't, and don't do things One Piece does. But whatever I guess, I'm not interested in starting a flame war if that's where this is going to end up.
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On April 15 2013 01:28 ArvickHero wrote:I only skimmed through OP Film Z, so I mightve missed an important plot detail regarding this, but ... + Show Spoiler +why didn't luffy just use haki from the beginning in his fight against Z? It looked like he just used it at the very end of the last fight ..
+ Show Spoiler +I just saw it, i could say that he was caught off guard, but yea i see ur point.
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On April 15 2013 01:30 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 01:03 Iplaythings wrote:On April 15 2013 00:54 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 15 2013 00:45 amaDeus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, UHHHHM WAT? Naruto? Naruto doesnt have any sidecharacters that got much shinetime except gaara. Uhm, no offence but are we talking about the same manga? Team 10 got pretty much an entire arc for themselves, to give just one example. First of all, quit the argument allready, it'll boil down to "hurr durr I like this manga better than the other" and then it'd go to majority role (where I ahve no doubts in OP winning) and then someone is gonna be annoyed.. edit: had other thoughts I guess you're right. But tbh it's really sad. I'm not saying any of the shows I listed are better than One Piece, or even that I like them more. We really should be able to talk about a series without having to say it's either ambrosia in manga form or literally the worst thing ever written. There are things One Piece does, and things it doesn't. There are other series which do things One Piece doesn't, and don't do things One Piece does. But whatever I guess, I'm not interested in starting a flame war if that's where this is going to end up.
To weigh in before the discussion is buried: the difference is that OP has continual character development (noticeable at that!) while Naruto is a large status quo apart from random powerups for Naruto and Sasuke (and some villains) and the large timeskip which leveled most up quite a bit (though they never seemed to do so during the story). Team 10 (and especially Neji, lesser extent Choji with some flashbacky stuff) was the only significant character development in-continuity.
Hell, the majority of actual character development in Naruto is in the form of flashbacks (Neji, Choji, Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, Jiraya, Pain etc etc etc.) That's kinda cheating to be honest. There's a few exceptions, but flashbacks coupled with TNJ seems to be the larger means of character development.
Though of course I'm now forced to mention that OP employs its share of flashbacks too, but that's mostly in the form of storyarcs (Luffy+Ace+Coby) or things that's already happened in the series (i.e. "remember this? now I'm reminding you so you can evoke them relevant feelings to what's currently happening"), so not entirely comparable.
In any case, I'm in the 'Oda does better character development without cheating too much' boat. 
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5003 Posts
On April 14 2013 23:55 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 23:27 Milkis wrote:On April 14 2013 23:18 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 13 2013 12:15 BlackMagister wrote:
Romance doesn't really exist in One Piece just a lot of teasing so the only way Sanji would get a relationship would be by being used so I say go for it. Oh right Sanji also has another goal All Blue. I wish they would have some way to actually show progress in that goal. In the anime there was a scene where Sanji tasted salt that was highly suggested to be from All Blue, but of course that's not cannon. I suppose his goal can be reached by just aimless traveling like Nami's goal though. Tbh one of the things that made me lose a lot of interest in One Piece was how the other crewmembers' storylines basically got shafted. In the beginning they're all introduced as having their own dreams and their own goals, but once the whole crew is together everyone just becomes supporting characters in Luffy's quest to become Pirate King. They only have character progress (ie: get stronger) when it is needed to help Luffy, and Luffy is the only one who makes noteworthy advances towards his goal of becoming Pirate King. I eventually went back to reading One Piece so I don't mind it now. But I don't see any point in caring about All Blue or Zoro's childhood promise or any of the crew's own story-arcs. We're just going to get the occasional lip-service to it once every hundred chapters until the end of One Piece and then there'll be an epilogue where everyone achieved their dreams somehow. Their goals are on the same path as Luffy's though, which is why they're on his crew in the first place. Their backstories are the reason they joined, and what gives some of them the will power to fight on. Nami *is* drawing that world map. They are all still looking for All Blue (which they think is on Grand Line). Zoro is fighting and trying to get stronger to be the best swordsman. etc etc. Saying Nami is drawing that world map or saying they are looking for all blue or saying they are with Luffy because it helps them fulfil their dreams is not the same as showing that they are working on their dreams and having that be an actual part of the storylines. You can say Zoro getting stronger is part of his arc to be the best swordsman, but I disagree. Zoro fighting Mihawk during Sanji's introduction arc was a part of Zoro's arc, because it actually was about Zoro and who he is as a character. Zoro getting stronger in arcs that are otherwise all about Luffy and the villains of that arc (and their victims), doesn't count imo.
I mean, what do you want them to show? Nami drawing a map every now and then? Nami wants a grand line, and she's constantly furthering her goals, learning how to navigate/learning about grand line. Them BEING on the crew is SHOWING that they are working on their dreams.
Zoro went through quite a bit of character development too. Also Zoro - Tashigi is definitely still part of Zoro's backstory being brought up. That and Zoro asking Mihawk to teach him? There's a lot of stuff about Zoro throughout many of the arcs that continually show.
Sanji is probably the only one who isn't going through as much development, but then again his dream is to find All Blue, which is really vague (and probably will be related to one piece). But I do feel like for every character we're seeing that they are working on their dreams subtly actively. I mean, let's put it this way -- Is luffy actively working on his dream? no, he just wants to reach the end of grand line and gets side tracked here and there. This is just an adventure for the entire crew trying to reach their dreams, not just Luffy...
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Austria24422 Posts
Also don't forget that Oda is continuously running Nico Robin's story through the poneglyphs which I assume will come full circle with One Piece as well.
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On April 15 2013 00:34 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 00:10 Forikorder wrote:On April 14 2013 23:55 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 14 2013 23:27 Milkis wrote:On April 14 2013 23:18 nadafanboy42 wrote:On April 13 2013 12:15 BlackMagister wrote:
Romance doesn't really exist in One Piece just a lot of teasing so the only way Sanji would get a relationship would be by being used so I say go for it. Oh right Sanji also has another goal All Blue. I wish they would have some way to actually show progress in that goal. In the anime there was a scene where Sanji tasted salt that was highly suggested to be from All Blue, but of course that's not cannon. I suppose his goal can be reached by just aimless traveling like Nami's goal though. Tbh one of the things that made me lose a lot of interest in One Piece was how the other crewmembers' storylines basically got shafted. In the beginning they're all introduced as having their own dreams and their own goals, but once the whole crew is together everyone just becomes supporting characters in Luffy's quest to become Pirate King. They only have character progress (ie: get stronger) when it is needed to help Luffy, and Luffy is the only one who makes noteworthy advances towards his goal of becoming Pirate King. I eventually went back to reading One Piece so I don't mind it now. But I don't see any point in caring about All Blue or Zoro's childhood promise or any of the crew's own story-arcs. We're just going to get the occasional lip-service to it once every hundred chapters until the end of One Piece and then there'll be an epilogue where everyone achieved their dreams somehow. Their goals are on the same path as Luffy's though, which is why they're on his crew in the first place. Their backstories are the reason they joined, and what gives some of them the will power to fight on. Nami *is* drawing that world map. They are all still looking for All Blue (which they think is on Grand Line). Zoro is fighting and trying to get stronger to be the best swordsman. etc etc. Saying Nami is drawing that world map or saying they are looking for all blue or saying they are with Luffy because it helps them fulfil their dreams is not the same as showing that they are working on their dreams and having that be an actual part of the storylines. You can say Zoro getting stronger is part of his arc to be the best swordsman, but I disagree. Zoro fighting Mihawk during Sanji's introduction arc was a part of Zoro's arc, because it actually was about Zoro and who he is as a character. Zoro getting stronger in arcs that are otherwise all about Luffy and the villains of that arc (and their victims), doesn't count imo. I think you hit the nail on the head with your description though. The backstories and goals of the crew are only there to set up their motivation and personality as characters. It's just that when I first started reading One Piece I (perhaps naively) thought they would get storylines and character progression of their own outside of just getting stronger to keep up with the new enemies Luffy's facing. the problem is all of there goals are intangible that cant really be shown that there advancing towards so unless you want every single member of the crew to be constantly spouting there goal like Luffy i dont know what your expecting Of the top of my head I can list half a dozen action manga's which imo have done a better job advancing the storylines/goals of non-lead characters: Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, Magi, Vinland Saga, Shingeki no Kyojin, Ao no Exorcist. Shikamaru in Naruto who isn't even a secondary main character has had more character development then half of Luffy's crew, imo. But I think you're kinda missing what I said from the beginning though. When I started watching/reading One Piece I had different expectations, but that is like over 10 years ago now. Since then I've learned not to expect/demand things to be something they are not and where never meant to be. One Piece imo isn't and isn't meant to be about character development. It's about character interaction and setting (world building). The characterization of Luffy's crew and their interaction with each other, as well as the settings and the world building with each arc in One Piece, those are amongst the best of any manga out there afaik. And seeing as last I checked it was still the #1 manga in Japan, One Piece is also doing fine as it has been.
I see after all your troubles with One Piece you've come up with your own answer. Talking about the lack of character development and countering it with your own words that it's not about character development.
Their mindset have changed and they all work hard to help Luffy achieve his dream. I'm pretty sure they would all sacrifice their own dream for his. So yes, we don't really need to talk about their dreams. But they still do a bit. It's just less prominent as Luffy keeps spouting 'IM GOING TO BE PIRATEKING!'. Franky wants to set sail with his own ship that will become the ship of the Pirate King.... pretty hard to show progress unless they show Luffy becoming the Pirate King. For Nami to draw her map, she needs to have a crew that has conquered the whole world, IE Luffy becoming Pirate King. Many of the other story lines just line up perfectly well with Luffy becoming PK that it's unwise to waste pages on telling us anything unnoteworthy. The fact that they have changed their own dreams into helping Luffy and their own dreams as secondary is character development for as far as I can see.
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On April 15 2013 02:10 Sableyeah wrote:
Their mindset have changed and they all work hard to help Luffy achieve his dream. I'm pretty sure they would all sacrifice their own dream for his.
On the flipside I'm pretty sure Luffy wouldn't allow them to sacrifice their own dreams to help him achieve his.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Uhm, how can Oda possibly focus on Sanji's goal? It was already said in the beginning that if All Blue did exist, it was at the end of the Grand Line. Until then, there's nothing for him to do but nosebleed.
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Um, guys....
Look at the introductory episode/chapter for each crew member, and look at the latest one with them. With the exception of maybe Brook, they've all changed in one way or another. You don't need entire arcs dedicated to single characters for them to grow, they've been doing it on the way the entire time. Just because their core character hasn't changed, doesn't mean they haven't changed at all.
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On April 14 2013 22:09 Elerris wrote:For those who don't know, One Piece Film Z came out with English subs today. Link: http://www.chia-anime.com/movie-english-sub/watch-one-piece-movie-12-film-z.htmlThough the subs weren't that high of a quality, and i'm sure there will be better versions coming out soon, they were good enough to satisfy me after however many months we waited. Overall it was pretty good, the fight scenes were of a somewhat different style to the previous movies, which at times was not a good thing as they often looked quite cluttered. + Show Spoiler +
I was somewhat disappointed with the way the fights went down. At first the crew was attacked by Z, and they got completely smashed, and then the second and third times they encountered Z's crew, they suddenly went boss mode and Z's strongest crew members got owned without Zoro and Sanji barely breaking a sweat.
Luffy and Z's punch-up at the end also felt strange, can't tell if I liked it or not. Thoughts?
Hmm since I don't want to spoil it for anyone by accident:
+ Show Spoiler +I did think the power difference at points of the film was a bit odd as you mentioned.
The end punch up was kinda cool, was like the whole, "by fighting you I get it". Only thing I wasn't really sure about was Luffy winning 1v1 against someone as hyped up as Z. Even with his old age, I got the impression he was supposed to still be retardedly strong. Especially how easily he beat Luffy the first 2 times. Still he did allude to being a shitload stronger ("Damn, I got old. With only that, my body has given out")so maybe his illness / age really took him down a lot.
I really enjoyed the animation style for the fight scenes, reminded me a lot of Macross Plus with shit flying everywhere and capturing a really food sense of motion and speed. I just wish they lasted a bit longer, which would've gone with Ain and Binz being more equal in strength to Zoro and Sanji.
Z was a cool character though.
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5003 Posts
On April 15 2013 08:59 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 22:09 Elerris wrote:For those who don't know, One Piece Film Z came out with English subs today. Link: http://www.chia-anime.com/movie-english-sub/watch-one-piece-movie-12-film-z.htmlThough the subs weren't that high of a quality, and i'm sure there will be better versions coming out soon, they were good enough to satisfy me after however many months we waited. Overall it was pretty good, the fight scenes were of a somewhat different style to the previous movies, which at times was not a good thing as they often looked quite cluttered. + Show Spoiler +
I was somewhat disappointed with the way the fights went down. At first the crew was attacked by Z, and they got completely smashed, and then the second and third times they encountered Z's crew, they suddenly went boss mode and Z's strongest crew members got owned without Zoro and Sanji barely breaking a sweat.
Luffy and Z's punch-up at the end also felt strange, can't tell if I liked it or not. Thoughts?
Hmm since I don't want to spoil it for anyone by accident: + Show Spoiler +I did think the power difference at points of the film was a bit odd as you mentioned.
The end punch up was kinda cool, was like the whole, "by fighting you I get it". Only thing I wasn't really sure about was Luffy winning 1v1 against someone as hyped up as Z. Even with his old age, I got the impression he was supposed to still be retardedly strong. Especially how easily he beat Luffy the first 2 times. Still he did allude to being a shitload stronger ("Damn, I got old. With only that, my body has given out")so maybe his illness / age really took him down a lot.
I really enjoyed the animation style for the fight scenes, reminded me a lot of Macross Plus with shit flying everywhere and capturing a really food sense of motion and speed. I just wish they lasted a bit longer, which would've gone with Ain and Binz being more equal in strength to Zoro and Sanji.
Z was a cool character though.
+ Show Spoiler +
To be fair the first time he took them by surprise.
Also its like how easily crocodile or enel destroyed luffy so easily, but in the end luffy kind of figures out strategies to beat them even though they are stronger than them.
Although I think Z went easier on Luffy after figuring out Luffy's not that bad of a guy as he thought. but the movie doesn't directly support that so whatever.
the movie was awesome tho
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+ Show Spoiler +Z comments after he collapses that he got old, but doesn't he have an eternal youth machine (Ain) that can keep him young and in his prime? Or is there some other reason why he didn't want to do that?
Enjoyed the movie, my only complaint was that nobody really confronted Z directly with the fact that his plan would kill all of the innocents as well. I think his reaction to that would have said a lot about Z as a character. When Zoro fought Ain, he said that he could feel her hesitation, but that didn't really go anywhere. Luffy was a bit more boneheaded than usual, but that's Luffy so whatever.
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+ Show Spoiler +Well for the movie, it was a really good one.
But if you look at the ending though, you can see the Luffy had trouble walking while Z stood up to fight the Marines. Even got multishot by Kizaru.
So maybe it is a subtle way of Zephyr actually cancelling his plan right at the end by a "change of heart" as Luffy has that ability which draws people to him.
And even at the end when Zephyr fought the marines, he closed with the statement, I'll teach you one last lesson (or something to that effect) as he did train most of them. This leads me to believe that he had a change of heart, realized the error of his ways and simply wanted to die fighting. I don't even think he killed fodder units at the last fight but simply tossed them around.
My two cents.
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Loved the movie, it is with "Strong world" the best one piece movie to date imo
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