|
All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 01 2013 20:36 DamnCats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:07 son1dow wrote:On May 01 2013 19:29 Kishin2 wrote:
What was up with Pycell? Was he internationally misinforming the mad king about the loyalty of the Lannisters? He's shady as hell. Also, it's kind of ironic how Jaime served a mad king and is father to one. Unless Joffrey's insecurities escalate really badly I see no reason to compare him with the mad king... Who was truly mad. He's just a whiny teen, not mad. Whiny teens don't force prostitutes to beat other prostitutes to death with a spiked club sir.
You'd be surprised sir 
On May 01 2013 20:49 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword. Knight sits on horse. Poke horse, Knight falls, Knight cant get up cause hes wearing full plate. Kill knight. No i would say they are decently effective against knights. Do you REALLY think anyone would've wore armor while riding if it was hard to get up after you get knocked off? Do you think before you type? Medieval knights could move almost as good in armor as without armor.
And yet we find many instances where knights would drown in 2-3 foot deep rivers and ponds drinking by falling face first and not being able to lift themselves.
You sir have no idea about Medieval armor whatsoever so before you say some facetious statement like "DO YOU THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE" you should perhaps, in kind, take your own advice.
|
On May 01 2013 21:12 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:36 DamnCats wrote:On May 01 2013 20:07 son1dow wrote:On May 01 2013 19:29 Kishin2 wrote:
What was up with Pycell? Was he internationally misinforming the mad king about the loyalty of the Lannisters? He's shady as hell. Also, it's kind of ironic how Jaime served a mad king and is father to one. Unless Joffrey's insecurities escalate really badly I see no reason to compare him with the mad king... Who was truly mad. He's just a whiny teen, not mad. Whiny teens don't force prostitutes to beat other prostitutes to death with a spiked club sir. You'd be surprised sir Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:49 Zoler wrote:On May 01 2013 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword. Knight sits on horse. Poke horse, Knight falls, Knight cant get up cause hes wearing full plate. Kill knight. No i would say they are decently effective against knights. Do you REALLY think anyone would've wore armor while riding if it was hard to get up after you get knocked off? Do you think before you type? Medieval knights could move almost as good in armor as without armor. And yet we find many instances where knights would drown in 2-3 foot deep rivers and ponds drinking by falling face first and not being able to lift themselves. You sir have no idea about Medieval armor whatsoever so before you say some facetious statement like "DO YOU THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE" you should perhaps, in kind, take your own advice.
Ehm.. No...
General view on armor/knights in popular / hollywood culture;
- cumbersome
- heavy
Reality in history;
- Flexible
- better than no armor
There was this one battle between britain and france in 13 something where a light army (archers and such) won vs armored knights. this was due to a number of factors;
- wet mud
- funnel
- light untis with daggers stabbing in the eye
etc
knights arent fat armored retards that as soon as they fall they are done for. this is popular culture and hollywood.
|
On May 01 2013 21:33 frontliner2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:12 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 01 2013 20:36 DamnCats wrote:On May 01 2013 20:07 son1dow wrote:On May 01 2013 19:29 Kishin2 wrote:
What was up with Pycell? Was he internationally misinforming the mad king about the loyalty of the Lannisters? He's shady as hell. Also, it's kind of ironic how Jaime served a mad king and is father to one. Unless Joffrey's insecurities escalate really badly I see no reason to compare him with the mad king... Who was truly mad. He's just a whiny teen, not mad. Whiny teens don't force prostitutes to beat other prostitutes to death with a spiked club sir. You'd be surprised sir On May 01 2013 20:49 Zoler wrote:On May 01 2013 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword. Knight sits on horse. Poke horse, Knight falls, Knight cant get up cause hes wearing full plate. Kill knight. No i would say they are decently effective against knights. Do you REALLY think anyone would've wore armor while riding if it was hard to get up after you get knocked off? Do you think before you type? Medieval knights could move almost as good in armor as without armor. And yet we find many instances where knights would drown in 2-3 foot deep rivers and ponds drinking by falling face first and not being able to lift themselves. You sir have no idea about Medieval armor whatsoever so before you say some facetious statement like "DO YOU THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE" you should perhaps, in kind, take your own advice. Ehm.. No... General view on armor/knights in popular / hollywood culture; - cumbersome - heavy Reality in history; - Flexible - better than no armor There was this one battle between britain and france in 13 something where a light army (archers and such) won vs armored knights. this was due to a number of factors; - wet mud - funnel - light untis with daggers stabbing in the eye etc knights arent fat armored retards that as soon as they fall they are done for. this is popular culture and hollywood.
One google search to refresh my memory.
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/07/heavy-armor-gave-knights-a-worko.html
"armor worn during the 15th century, which weighed 30 to 50 kilograms, required its wearers to expend more than twice the usual amount of energy when they walked or ran."
"
The problem is the legs. The pseudo-knights wore heavy leg protection: cuisses on their thighs, greaves on their calves, and pointed shoes called sabatons on their feet. Together, these weighed 7 or 8 kilograms, Askew says, and having to swing that weight with each step really weighed them down. The farther the weight was from the center of the body, the more energetically expensive it was."
Or perhaps King Louis II of Hungary who drowned because he was in heavy cavalry armor and it impeded his ability to swim.
You should really know something more about medieval armor since it was adding tens if not a hundred lbs onto your body mass for long extended periods of time. The scene that shows this the most is when Tyrion's body guard (name slips) fought for him in trial by combat and he just kinda evaded until the other guy was to exasperated to move.
|
I would still choose platemail over light armor. Besides with proper training it wouldn't matter much, besides the horse carries you.
Platemail makes you SO much tougher in combat that it is worth it.
|
Full plate mail was only used for show-off reasons at tourneys and parads.
Actual combat plate was pretty heavy, and only used for cavalry, it was up to 50 kilograms. but they sat on a horse (where the needed 2 people to help them up, and they were fixated on the horse), and their Tactics was trampling down everything in a close and narrow stampede formation. If this guy fell off his horse, he was screwed.
For infantry type plate (which was EXTREMELY rare, most of those made, were for show-off purpose), it was a helmet, shoulders and chest, while arms and legs only were protected by splints .way more common was chain-mail with helmet and shoulderpad.
|
Did war in the middle age not work something like this:
IIRC!:
First everyone had "light armor".
Around came the (long)Bow which utterly dominated anyone due to the light armor just being pierced by Arrows.
Around came better/heavier plating (not FULL armor) which could withstand the fired Arrows and so the Long-Bow wasn't dominating anymore (and got wrecked in several battles before this was "known"?).
"
And then there is the financial aspect which made it basically impossible to give "good/heavy" Armor to everyone.
|
I'm pretty sure that armored infantry was often one knight surrounded by multiple people to support him, nearly unkillable as there was no real way to wound him, and picked up by the supports once brought down.
|
On May 01 2013 20:16 Scorch wrote:
The Dothraki follow those who are strong. Does Daenerys, having a loyal army of Unsullied and dragons, count as strong, or does only strength in 1vs1 combat count?.
Or she could just walk in a fire and stand there for a while and walk out unharmed, they might look at that as personal strength too?
|
One thing that struck me odd is.. Finally Jon and ingrid have their privacy after weeks (months?) of campaigning in dirty rags... no time/room for personal hygiene.
.
What lovely cave with a hot spring. Let me guess, they'll take a bath and have sex.
NO. What happens is Jon giving Ingrid oral without them bathing FIRST.
MAKES NO SENSE :D
|
On May 01 2013 22:58 frontliner2 wrote:
One thing that struck me odd is.. Finally Jon and ingrid have their privacy after weeks (months?) of campaigning in dirty rags... no time/room for personal hygiene.
.
What lovely cave with a hot spring. Let me guess, they'll take a bath and have sex.
NO. What happens is Jon giving Ingrid oral without them bathing FIRST.
MAKES NO SENSE :D
Jon Snow knows nothing, remember?
|
On May 01 2013 22:48 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:16 Scorch wrote:
The Dothraki follow those who are strong. Does Daenerys, having a loyal army of Unsullied and dragons, count as strong, or does only strength in 1vs1 combat count?. Or she could just walk in a fire and stand there for a while and walk out unharmed, they might look at that as personal strength too?
A woman capable of using incomprehensible magic isn't exactly the most wanted leader for Dothraki. I think Dany looks like a dangerous witch in their eyes. And they don't like witches, afaik.
|
On May 01 2013 20:31 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:33 Craze wrote:On May 01 2013 05:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Executing Karstark was the right decision though, the lord's soldiers wouldn't have fought effectively for Robb either way, and this way he still gets the respect from the rest of his troops for executing Karstark for treason. Arresting and imprisoning Karstark would have guaranteed his family's cooperation and that the men would continue to fight for Robb. This was the worst decision he could possibly make. Once again for the Starks honor gets in the way of what is politically pragmatic and now he's lost half his army for it and most likely doomed his cause. He has to approach a man he has scorned because he "followed his heart," another noble quality. Karstark completely forced his hand when he was openly taunting him about being a pussy to traitors. There was nothing else he could have done.
I had an argument with my brother about this.
His argument was similar, in that karstarks were traitors and he had to treat them as such and he did the right thing yada yada
from a morals perspective:
-losing karstarks risks losing your whole army if you lose the war because of it
-lannister boys were only alive because they were highborn in the first place, lowborn kids would be dead with no mercy
from a leadership perspective
-the 2 lannisters are only worthwhile as a monetary factor
-the karstarks were disgruntled already and the leader wanted a blood for blood
-executing your 6 of your own officers for killing 2 enemy prisoners is a terrible decision for army morale.
I think the correct decision would have been to either try them after the war or fine them whatever the ransom would be worth. Robb stark already fucked up if he wants to kill people who are "traitors" he had to kill catelyn.
On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword.
I'm not history expert but in ancient china the spear was considered the ultimate weapon. It's like the old legend of the farmer with the quaterstaff beating the swordmaster, except it has a pointy end. However in china they didn't have anywhere near the level of armour.
I think in heavily armoured situations the spear is still fine in 1v1 because you have a range advantage and lots of space to manoeuvre, either with a short spear and 1 hand with a shield or a longer 2 handed spear using range or the spear to block.
However in close knit formation you have no room to use your spear except for thrusting and heavily armoured units of infrantry with a shield wall should be able to hold the spears off and either get inside your range or slice the spear off leaving him disarmed because a stick won't do anything against platemail.
I think thats where we get the old spear>cavalry>infrantry>spear rock paper scissors. (cavalry using momentum to overcome the shield wall in a wedge formation and then trample)
|
But they're using short spears, not long pikes. I'm not an expert but I think heavy cavalry can crush light spearmen easily.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
If Dany and a full grown dragon meet Dothraki, they will follow Dany. The first few might complain, but once they are reduced to ashes, the rest will follow. I don't think it would come to this though. I think they'll just see the dragon as a weapon like any other and Dany with a dragon beats any other Dothraki with whatever weapon they have. Besides, they did like her once (for eating the heart and stuff).
|
On May 01 2013 21:02 ecstazy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:34 Acertos wrote:
He killed a bunch of stark important people and just think about it, if you were the bodyguard of a mad president and if you killed him on your own, would you expect people to thank you?
I would. I would expect everyone to acknowledge my contribution to saving thousands of lives and I certainly wouldn't expect to be hated for it.
Many people are ignoring a lots of facts about the kingslayer, i can't even begin to comprehend how people can feel sympathetic for him. I'm actually enjoying all the shit he's enduring, and to my eyes he's far from redemption yet.
To start off, he was a sworn kingsguard. He made an oath, much like crows swear their lifes to the wall, but to the king on Jaime's case. No matter what the king does or commands, the kingsguard only mission is to protect him with their own life.
This part is lightly referenced on the first episodes, when Robert visits the crypts on Winterfell, when Ned meets Jaime on kings landing, and further explained on the youtube videos of lore and history. No book spoilers here, didn't read them
The mad king's son kidnapped Ned sister. The mad king sentence as traitors and kills Ned father and brother for complaining about his son behaviour. Nobody is more eager to have vengeance by his own hand than Ned, and even Robert as he is more temperamental. After a long rebellion, when the victory it's at hand and they arrive to King's landing, Lannisters already swept the city, and the mad king already is slain. Not only Jaime broke the oath, spared him of fighting against the rebels to protect his king, and robbed Ned and Robert from his vengeance. He was waiting sitting on the throne, and presumptuously said "he saved them the trouble to kill the king". And you expect people to thank him?
+ Show Spoiler +
After all that he pushed Bran, killed Ned's men just to make a point, killed Kastark son and even his own nephew.
Too bad i'm smelling his scourge will end soon, seems like Bolton is treating Jaime as neutral as he can, so he can switch sides and help the Lannisters if things go south with Robbs rebellion.
|
Russian Federation59 Posts
On May 01 2013 23:46 Golondrin wrote:
Many people are ignoring a lots of facts about the kingslayer, i can't even begin to comprehend how people can feel sympathetic for him. I'm actually enjoying all the shit he's enduring, and to my eyes he's far from redemption yet.
Not only Jaime broke the oath, spared him of fighting against the rebels to protect his king, and robbed Ned and Robert from his vengeance. He was waiting sitting on the throne, and presumptuously said "he saved them the trouble to kill the king". And you expect people to thank him?
Go watch the bath scene again.
Jaime did a lot of things wrong, but killing the mad king was not one of them.
Also where in the show did they explain that he was sat on the throne?
|
On May 01 2013 23:57 ecstazy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 23:46 Golondrin wrote:
Many people are ignoring a lots of facts about the kingslayer, i can't even begin to comprehend how people can feel sympathetic for him. I'm actually enjoying all the shit he's enduring, and to my eyes he's far from redemption yet.
Not only Jaime broke the oath, spared him of fighting against the rebels to protect his king, and robbed Ned and Robert from his vengeance. He was waiting sitting on the throne, and presumptuously said "he saved them the trouble to kill the king". And you expect people to thank him?
Go watch the bath scene again. Jaime did a lot of things wrong, but killing the mad king was not one of them. Also where in the show did they explain that he was sat on the throne?
I believe Ned said that when he had walked in Jaime was sitting on the throne. I forget now who he was talking to, maybe his wife.
|
On May 01 2013 23:46 Golondrin wrote:
After all that he pushed Bran, killed Ned's men just to make a point, killed Kastark son and even his own nephew.
Killing Karstark's son doesn't make him a bad person. They're at war. Osha killed men to break Bran/Rickon out - that's not treachery, it's bravery. The 'point' he was making by killing Ned's men was 'you're kidnapping and trying to execute my innocent brother, what the fuck'. Pushing Bran, on the other hand, is a hideous act - but not because he's a monstrous person so much as because he's not very subtle where his passions come into it. As he said to Cersei later, he'd kill anyone that threatened to come between them.
Killing the cousin is an act that doesn't seem to fit him, because it comes out of nowhere, is never mentioned again, and was entirely unnecessary.
Not a good person, but his dishonorable attributes are being redeemed heavily: respect for opponents, upholding of vows (remember all the others, to obey one's father and protect the innocent).
|
On May 02 2013 00:06 Spektor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 23:57 ecstazy wrote:On May 01 2013 23:46 Golondrin wrote:
Many people are ignoring a lots of facts about the kingslayer, i can't even begin to comprehend how people can feel sympathetic for him. I'm actually enjoying all the shit he's enduring, and to my eyes he's far from redemption yet.
Not only Jaime broke the oath, spared him of fighting against the rebels to protect his king, and robbed Ned and Robert from his vengeance. He was waiting sitting on the throne, and presumptuously said "he saved them the trouble to kill the king". And you expect people to thank him?
Go watch the bath scene again. Jaime did a lot of things wrong, but killing the mad king was not one of them. Also where in the show did they explain that he was sat on the throne? I believe Ned said that when he had walked in Jaime was sitting on the throne. I forget now who he was talking to, maybe his wife.
It's also in the bonus content found on Season 1 and 2 (you can find them on Youtube) where it describes the scene during Roberts rebellion.
|
Jaime's clearly twisting things and using his plight to get sympathy from Brienne in his time of need/weakness.
The acting was so impressive, in fact, that NCW has even charmed the viewers! :p
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
