[TV] HBO Game of Thrones - Page 595

On June 20 2012 13:55 Kazius wrote:

You want to be insulting? Go for it. You're so clever and manly. Refute my points if they are stupid. Until then, stop being a dick.

You have a goal, you can die, you can run, or you can further your goal. Possible actions:

1) Not entering the tower and running the fuck away: Anyone on the Iron Throne will want her dead, and eventually, one will succeed in getting her murdered. She will be totally dependent on her people, whose loyalty will be less assured if they see her running (despite her promises that their enemies will die screaming). That is assuming the King of Qarth wouldn't do with her as he pleases. She will never be powerful enough to take the Iron Throne without dragons.

Summary: At best, she will be a minor leader of a small nomadic tribe for a while, and then get murdered. Dreams destroyed (no dragons = no Iron Throne), living a life of poverty followed by murder in a god forsaken piece of Westeros.

2) Entering the tower: Probability high of being captured and imprisoned. She will remain with her dragons, raise them, will have people attempting to rescue her (probability of success over time is unknown). Probability low of successfully retrieving dragons: She will come out stronger than ever, and this will be another stepping stone on her rise to power. To her people, she will be a woman that cannot be stopped by magic, who kept her promise as to what would be done to their enemies. Qarth has fleets of ships trading with everywhere, word will spread.

Summary: Probably captured for a while, either to be rescued by her people and the help they can muster, or until the wizard dies, or forever, who knows. Best case, she has made a huge step in legitimizing herself as a proper ruler, not only in name, but in actions. In any case, the best case of the other option is not better than what happens here.

Stop being a douche and tell me why I'm wrong.

On June 20 2012 15:01 Irrelevant Label wrote:
I take issue with calling it stupid, though it is most likely semantic differences in what exactly we define as stupidity.

It's hardly the stupid choice to refuse to retreat into relative poverty and hiding again and instead go all in on a big risk. It just isn't the choice most people with their more tame life experience and more common sensibilities would choose. It is more a question of madness and/or personal taste in what the meaning of life is and how that dictates what is worth doing/risking. Also the maternal thing she cited; but I'll play the male chauvinist for a moment and call that a type of madness for now. In any case, for categorizing her, I lean towards madness.

On June 20 2012 14:27 StorkHwaiting wrote:


Actually, it really is more "clever" to not bother arguing points with you that should be glaringly obvious. But since you have expressed your extreme distress over the topic, I will endeavor to soothe your feelings. Also, when insulting me you should make a choice and stick with it. Either I'm a dick or a douche. You can't just throw the kitchen sink. You lose all sense of authenticity that way. Although, I guess the unifying theme behind your insults is that I'm inserted into vaginas, so cheers for that.

On to the points:
1. Ridiculous. You're basically stating Daenerys is 100% guaranteed to be assassinated. Not true at all. If you haven't noticed, they're not living in a very high-tech world. Forensics don't work so well. Neither does DNA testing. She puts on a disguise, goes to another city, voila, suddenly she's someone else a la Arya Stark. She can plot and plan all she wants from that point and get the Iron Throne from another angle. Life isn't connect-the-dots.

2. Predicated on your first ridiculous analysis, you've created a second assumption which is that her only choice is to go into the tower. Not only that, but that there is zero chance of her dying in the tower. So basically, in your twisted mind, you've created this notion that Daenerys' life is a binary. Not go into tower = 1 or death. Go into tower = 0 or never die.

How in the hell does that make any sense? Oh, that's right! It doesn't! Just like it doesn't make any sense for Daenerys to go waltzing into the warlock crashpad and expect to just lift her dragons. At some point, any sane person would think to themselves hmm... something could go wrong here. They might not want to kill me, but if some complication occurs, like say for instance the dragons go berserk, the warlocks might fight back and I might get killed in the crossfire.

Or maybe there are different factions within the warlocks, not all of whom are friendly. After all, she knows jack shit about them except that there's some skinny bald dude in a dress who likes slitting people's throats simultaneously. Which should be a good indication that her death is a possibility.

and lawl at she will come out stronger than ever. What in the fuck? Yeah man! Prisoners all come out of medieval dungeons stronger than ever! What's to say the warlocks didn't just feed her a potion that made her a total vegetable? All they said was her proximity made the dragons stronger. It didn't say anything about her laughing and singing to them or needing to be very Daenerys like in any way. She could be a straight up vegetable sitting in the room with them. You ever think of that? They could chop her legs off to keep her from running away. Ever think of that one?

No. You didn't. But somehow you envisioned swarms of assassins just charging through the Dothraki Sea to take Daenerys' head. What is wrong with you?

Obviously, there are other options out there. Which is why Jorah kept telling her there were other options out there. Look at Littlefinger. He don't have a trio of dragons. He's just got chubby whores. Yet, he's as close to the Iron Throne as anyone. You don't seem to understand the concept that life is the only thing that can't be replaced. Everything else can be accomplished in a different way, but you can't do shit when you're dead! And guess what had a high probability of death, torture, and imprisonment? That's right... the warlock's little house of horrors. NOT the entire rest of the world, which is what Daenerys had open to her if she chose to leave.

On June 20 2012 15:38 Kazius wrote:

It's like a promising NCAA player becoming an NBA player after being losing a leg in college. You can recover from it, but it is quite impossible to reach the top. You cannot lead as a conquerer with your first big challenge ending with defeat and broken promises (as Tywin said "Do you think I'd be standing here if I ever lost?"), so that is over. It was already proven that she is reachable by people willing to find her (Varys could), and this is without magical aid (with Stannis on the throne and his priestess at his side, how long do you think she could hide? We don't know all the wildcards yet). She would be in permanent danger no matter what the case. Maybe I am giving too much credit, but I don't think in a land where magical assassins, murderous priestesses and magicians exist, even the cleverest person could hide (and the Faceless Man knew she was Arya, so no, not even she can hide from everyone).

As far as the show goes, the goal of the warlocks was to get her into the tower and joined with her dragons. That is her first short term goal. Half the job was by definition always going to happen. It was only about her getting out. As to internal politics, you can make a trillion assumptions. Why not invent an imaginary faction that wants to give her the dragons back, set her free and raise an army for her? Why not invent another imaginary faction that wants to give her unicorns?

You can only build on what you know.

Again with the assumptions. Without any knowledge, we can only assume that she was to be held prisoner in the same room as them. We can also assume that it was only a metaphor, and they'd just let her go anywhere. Whatever. Getting out stronger than ever is not in a physical sense, but rather, as a leader. A leader that was not afraid of magic and got things done is a figure to be respected. That is strength you cannot buy. Just as she had to win over the Dothraki by challenging herself to become more than she was, she must do the same with much greater audiences if she wishes to truly become a power in Westeros.

No swarms of assassins. Just one that wasn't as inept as the one Varys managed to employ. Surely, the Lannisters could spare that. Tyrion labeled her as a problem for another day. I doubt Tywin wouldn't use his power to succeed, with no moral qualms about it.

Littlefinger worked his entire life to become a pawn of the Lannisters. He will never get the Iron Throne, and he knows it. He aimed for the upper middle, not for the top. For that, you need to depose the rulers. Something only Robert Baratheon managed to do so far. Stannis with his giant army couldn't. Robb Stark isn't even close to having that kind of power (at least from what we can see). To do that, you need either power by birthright (she has none of that), a huge army, much greater than the defenders and their allies (extremely unlikely with a shaky base as "the chick who ran away at the first sign of trouble"), or Dragons.

It is gambling logic, but you play differently if you want to win big in poker with a short stack. Otherwise, you will be picked off. High risk is a necessity in this position. The fact that you view her as a dumb blonde and not as a person who has proven herself a worthy leader seems to be giving more importance to hypothetical scenarios instead of what we actually know.

On June 20 2012 17:14 StorkHwaiting wrote:


So why isn't Tywin dead? He had plenty of people who hated him all his life. There's a bunch of magical assassins running around. He should be dead by now. In fact, everyone who's ever been hated by someone rich should be dead. After all, magical assassins are everywhere ready to kill them at a moment's notice.

You seem to break down at a basic fundamental point. Intelligence is making rational decisions in an environment of incomplete data. The entire point is that you DON'T KNOW. Going off of the information Daenerys had it was a HORRIBLE decision to go into the warlock's joint. That is the entire point of my argument and you ignore it for who knows what reason, while ironically enough talking about only being able to build on what you know.

She didn't know her dragons would be any use vs the warlocks. She didn't know what the warlocks wanted other than her in the house. They could have very well lied about wanting her to be with the dragons and simply used that as a ploy to lure her there to kill her. Seriously are you incapable of basic critical thinking?

Littlefinger a pawn of the Lannisters? Jesus christ, you're hopeless. I'm done with you. I'm not at all surprised that you think Daenerys' decisions are intelligent.

On June 20 2012 14:27 StorkHwaiting wrote:

2. Predicated on your first ridiculous analysis, you've created a second assumption which is that her only choice is to go into the tower. Not only that, but that there is zero chance of her dying in the tower. So basically, in your twisted mind, you've created this notion that Daenerys' life is a binary. Not go into tower = 1 or death. Go into tower = 0 or never die.

How in the hell does that make any sense? Oh, that's right! It doesn't! Just like it doesn't make any sense for Daenerys to go waltzing into the warlock crashpad and expect to just lift her dragons. At some point, any sane person would think to themselves hmm... something could go wrong here. They might not want to kill me, but if some complication occurs, like say for instance the dragons go berserk, the warlocks might fight back and I might get killed in the crossfire.

On June 20 2012 18:24 Flyingdutchman wrote:


I really enjoyed your opening statement, thanks for that. But you are forgetting a very powerful influence on Dany, naemly motherhood. At least, that is how she sees herself considering her dragons, mothers are able to do these things for their children. Just because a guy aged 13-35 (I don't know how old you are) finds the behaviour irrational doesn't mean it can't be understandable from another point of view.

On June 20 2012 18:29 StorkHwaiting wrote:


yw lol. Yes, motherhood can be a powerful force, but it usually requires that whole process of pregnancy and falling in love with the child and having it be your flesh and blood. As much as they like to push the whole mother of dragons bs, she didn't actually birth the dragons or have any biological connection to them. She picked up some eggs and walked into a fire and walked back out with dragons. That doesn't create a bond like an actual mother/children. To say it is really disrespects what actual mothers go through and how powerful that bond can be.

For example, a real mother would never leave her babies in cages under the eye of servants. Nor would she keep running around worrying about taking the throne of Westeros. She'd be looking for a safe nest in which to raise her children. Obv, the Iron Throne is the complete opposite of that. So, I'm really not buying the whole "mother" aspect of Daenerys. Yet another reason why I don't like the construction of her character. Nearly all her motivations are contrived. So are her actions. At this point, I don't understand what the hell she's meant to be other than a plot device.

On June 20 2012 18:29 StorkHwaiting wrote:


yw lol. Yes, motherhood can be a powerful force, but it usually requires that whole process of pregnancy and falling in love with the child and having it be your flesh and blood. As much as they like to push the whole mother of dragons bs, she didn't actually birth the dragons or have any biological connection to them. She picked up some eggs and walked into a fire and walked back out with dragons. That doesn't create a bond like an actual mother/children. To say it is really disrespects what actual mothers go through and how powerful that bond can be.

On June 20 2012 19:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Just LOL. I'm done. There's no reasoning with fanboyism. Enjoy your Daenerys, mother of contrived plot-armor.

On June 20 2012 19:34 Inori wrote:

But you didn't actually reply to his valid questions:

Are you a woman?
Do you have children?

On June 20 2012 19:35 StorkHwaiting wrote:


Here's a valid question. Who the fuck in their right mind compares nine months of pregnancy and then childbirth with walking into a fire carrying some easter eggs?

On June 20 2012 19:37 sereniity wrote:


And who the fuck thinks they know anything about motherhood or connection to a child when the person is not a woman nor has a child?

On June 20 2012 19:40 StorkHwaiting wrote:


What could Daenerys know about motherhood or connection to a child when she doesn't have a child?

On June 20 2012 19:43 Inori wrote:

Clearly a woman that has recently lost her newborn knows less about motherhood than you.