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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 16 2011 18:34 kerr0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:On June 16 2011 01:13 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
Which is true, just like he didn't believe the guy he beheaded in Ep1. Karma is a bitch :D Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. I believe he was trying to reach his family to warn them. If he'd stopped by Castle Black to tell his superiors they would have smacked him around a bit and told him to stop being such a pussy.
Pretty sure he was running cause he was a scared little bitch lol
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On June 16 2011 18:34 kerr0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:On June 16 2011 01:13 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
Which is true, just like he didn't believe the guy he beheaded in Ep1. Karma is a bitch :D Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. I believe he was trying to reach his family to warn them. If he'd stopped by Castle Black to tell his superiors they would have smacked him around a bit and told him to stop being such a pussy.
Which means he was breaking his vows to the Night's Watch, and thus executed.
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HAHAHA, "They killed my niggah Ned!" - Probably the funniest video out there today! Man, I can relate!
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On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:On June 16 2011 01:13 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 01:01 dcemuser wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, he thought that if he told the truth, nobody would believe him anyway and it would cost his daughter's life probably. Which is true, just like he didn't believe the guy he beheaded in Ep1. Karma is a bitch :D Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched.
It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter.
But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge.
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On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:On June 16 2011 01:13 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
Which is true, just like he didn't believe the guy he beheaded in Ep1. Karma is a bitch :D Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge.
I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else.
Your last point still stands of course.
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book discussion
User was warned for this post
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On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:
[quote]
Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course.
It also doesn't help much that the entire reason the night's watch exists is too defend the lands from exactly that threat.
It's like deserting from the military and saying you don't like killing people. Yeah uhm....kinda goes with the job description mate.
So even if they knew for a fact there were white walkers they would probably still have taken his head off.
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On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:
[quote]
Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course.
Look, the whole point of this conversation is the assumption that Ned DID believe him. We already know what happened in the version where he didn't. Why is everyone bringing up the unlikeliness of not believing him, it is completely pointless for this discussion.
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On June 16 2011 19:59 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:
[quote]
Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course. It also doesn't help much that the entire reason the night's watch exists is too defend the lands from exactly that threat. It's like deserting from the military and saying you don't like killing people. Yeah uhm....kinda goes with the job description mate. So even if they knew for a fact there were white walkers they would probably still have taken his head off.
Very good point.
On June 16 2011 20:01 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:
[quote]
Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course. Look, the whole point of this conversation is the assumption that Ned DID believe him. We already know what happened in the version where he didn't. Why is everyone bringing up the unlikeliness of not believing him, it is completely pointless for this discussion.
If he had believed him he would have done something about it, like warn the nights watch. Obviously he didnt.
He probably thought that the deserter didnt lie (although he could not be sure), but thats entirely different from believing that what he said was true. As Ned said himself, from his point of view it was most probable to be the ramblings of a mad man.
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On June 16 2011 20:01 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:
[quote]
Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course. Look, the whole point of this conversation is the assumption that Ned DID believe him.
There is no point of this conversation anymore. There are a few parallels between the two executions and that's it. Two completely different circumstances and scenarios. Interpret it the way you want...
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Oh, I didnt even catch the similarities between both beheadings.
Hated the they killed Ned, starting to love it. This is such an epic series.
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I know the thread says "no book discussions", and I don't intend to start one. But just having read the books, I want to say here:
WTF seriously? - Mod
User was temp banned for this post.
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finally got around to seeing this one. probably the best episode yet. still doesnt make up for how bad the last one was.
i am a bit confused though, did joffrey spontaneously come up with neds death or was it something that his mother suggested? cause it seemed like she didnt quite agree with it. great backdrop painting in this episode if i must say so myself (:
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book
User was warned for this post
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On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 07:33 visual77 wrote:On June 16 2011 07:13 Voltaire wrote:On June 16 2011 01:13 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 01:01 dcemuser wrote:On June 15 2011 23:57 Jyvblamo wrote:
[quote]
The whole reason he lied was to safeguard his daughter's life. Yeah, he thought that if he told the truth, nobody would believe him anyway and it would cost his daughter's life probably. Which is true, just like he didn't believe the guy he beheaded in Ep1. Karma is a bitch :D Even if he believed that guy he probably still would have executed him. The crime was desertion, not claiming the white walkers were back. Indeed he would have. Men sworn to the Night's Watch are sworn for life, and any deserters found in the seven Kingdoms are sentenced to die. So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him.
Ned has a penchant for following the law to the letter, even when it seems morally and logically insane to do so, it's his character's greatest weakness.
So if the law says Nightswatch deserters are to be beheaded, that's what he'll do.
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I really love the show. I like how they make you love characters and then take them away. How they have all these great mind games and questions going on in your head. And they are not awnsered right away. It might take seasons before we get an awnser.
The scenes give me such a strong feeling. I know what is comming because i am still reading the books but the atmosphere of the show is just great. You might not like that Ned died but the show will not die with him. I really want to know what happens with all the Stark children and some other characters who just develop really nicely.
Family Stark and those we love.
Arya, alone in this city and now in the hands of Yoren from the knightwatch.
Sansa in the hands of Cercei and Joffrey who we all hate and wish dead asap.
Bran is still having this strange dream or you might call it nightmares and is now "Lord of Winterfell".
Robb is leading an army to fight off the Lannisters in hope to save his father (which we know is dead) and his sisters. He has Jamie Lannister to trade for his family.
Jon has a complicated decision to make which might make him a deserter and that means death in the eyes of the Kingdom and the knightwatch.
Catelyn is returning to Riverrun where she grew up and her family the Tullings live. Also had not received the message with the death of her husband.
Tyrion is finally free again from Catelyn and then send off by his father to fight in front of his army.
Daenerys is about to have her child in the same tent where Khal Drogo is trying to be rescued from death by this witch. And we still don't know if she is really trying to help him.
Khal Drogo is so badass. Are you about to die? That would be sad for Dany. Don't leave her helpless and alone.
Those who are playing games with our mind. We just like to slice them open to see what they are made off.
Littlefinger what are you up to next? Was it really Tyrions dagger that tried to kill Bran, and how did Jamie find Ned so fast in your whorehouse.
Varys is such a good servant for the realm.
Grand Maester Pycelle might not have the same role as Littlefinger and Varys in our minds but what is he doing and who do you serve?
And then for the characters that didn't have much screen time or ran away.
Renly ran away from Kings Landing. What are you up to?
Stannis, brother of Robbert and from our point of view rightfull air to the throne.
And those who we wish died instandly.
Joffrey is a little brat but is also the king of westeros.
Cercei is trying to control her son who is the king. It was not working out i guess.
Jamie has been taken by Robb and his sworn houses.
Yo, Whats up with those White walkers? Pretty damn scary if you ask me.
[Removed book discussion]
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On June 16 2011 20:12 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 20:01 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 19:33 -Frog- wrote:On June 16 2011 19:30 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 18:18 moopie wrote:On June 16 2011 17:46 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:47 11cc wrote:On June 16 2011 08:39 -Archangel- wrote:On June 16 2011 08:38 Loanshark wrote:On June 16 2011 08:26 -Archangel- wrote:
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So is treason. Unless you are a high lord and the other side has something to gain from not killing you. Double standards? Probably, but double standards and noble vs. commoner are huge themes in the novels, and they should expand it in the TV series. Well it still makes the two scenes connected and kind of similar. Even the same sword was used :D I agree that those scenes are connected. But who were you referring to when you mentioned double standards? I accept that Joffrey believed he was doing the right thing because he didn't know the truth. In that case the truth (Joffrey being a bastard) actually had significance. In the 1st episode the sentence was death, truth or not. I don't see why it has to be death if Ned believed him about White Walkers. Any sane person would rather send the guy back to the Wall for debriefing then just kill him. The deserter wasn't trying to go debrief anyone, if he wanted that, he would have reported to his superiors in Castle Black. He saw the horror of the White Walkers and what they did to his friends and he ran. He was guilty of desertion. As for Eddard not believing him, up until that day, nobody has seen the White Walkers in 8000 years (and lived to tell about it), it did seem rather far fetched. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do or not to do. If Ned believed him about White Walkers which is not your average threat he could have easily spared his life and sent him under guard back to Castle Black so he can tell them all the details of the encounter. Also, I see no reason to really execute a person that went through such a supernatural encounter that left him scared shitless over sending him back and waiting for him to calm down and get back to his duty. It was not like he just decided to leave, you could easily argue he was not completely in control of his actions after living through such an encounter. But my point was that just like in the last scene both figures of authority acted within the law and within their perceived knowledge. I would imagine most deserters from the night's watch make some outlandish claim as reason for their desertion. Seeing the white walkers is probably an excuse Eddard had heard often and he had no reason to believe this man more than anyone else. Your last point still stands of course. Look, the whole point of this conversation is the assumption that Ned DID believe him. There is no point of this conversation anymore. There are a few parallels between the two executions and that's it. Two completely different circumstances and scenarios. Interpret it the way you want...
So, basically you just said: I do not care about any discussion because whatever you say my opinion always beats your opinion.
Tell me, why did you even bother to reply then if you are not interested in what others say?
Ned has a penchant for following the law to the letter, even when it seems morally and logically insane to do so, it's his character's greatest weakness.
So if the law says Nightswatch deserters are to be beheaded, that's what he'll do.
Ned does not blindly follow the law. The person that you are trying to talk about is Stannis.
Ned follows the code of honour that for the most part coexists with the law. The law does not state he should warn the queen he knows about the children. Laws says he should warn the King. It is Ned's code of honour that tells him he should try to save women and children if possible.
A person that follows the law blindly would also not quit the job of being a King's Hand when he disagrees with the King's orders but would obey the order because the law says so.
So by that train of throught, I see no way Ned would have dishonoured himself by letting the deserter live if he trully believed his story about white walkers and understood how it affected the poor guy.
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-Archangel- dont think you understand how nightwatch operates. You desert, you die. When you rebel against king, he can pardon you or kill you, there's no must.
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And a king can pardon the night watchmen as well. Or a lord. Just because it was not shown to be done by now, does not mean it would not happen.
And desertion implies free will. I think supernatural fear takes away that. Lets just say they fracked it up in the ep1. The deserter was supposed to be a bumbling idiot that was so scarred he could not form a single sentence.
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On June 17 2011 01:30 -Archangel- wrote:
And a king can pardon the night watchmen as well. Or a lord. Just because it was not shown to be done by now, does not mean it would not happen.
And desertion implies free will. I think supernatural fear takes away that. Lets just say they fracked it up in the ep1. The deserter was supposed to be a bumbling idiot that was so scarred he could not form a single sentence.
What you are basicly saying is that judge could change the law he'd suppose to rule on. Where as king is the law maker and the judge.
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EPT
