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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 14 2019 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men I think you could see she was totally unstable and that her altruistic vernish was cracking a bit more with every setback. I like the fact that she snaps brutally, it’s like a dam breaking under pressure. It’s like the mad king heritage just awoke in the worst possible moment. And i think the advantage is that we thought she was the “good” side until the very last moment, which makes for a much more interesting ending. Now, of all alternative we realize that Westeros business as usual, Cercei was by far the least terrible.
by far? you smoking? o.o
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On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys.
Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major.
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On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major.
Aah I wish things didn't have to work like this, but alas they do.
Still in the back of my mind I'm hoping littlefinger comes back and wrecks the place up.
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Northern Ireland26799 Posts
On May 14 2019 20:38 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major. Aah I wish things didn't have to work like this, but alas they do. Still in the back of my mind I'm hoping littlefinger comes back and wrecks the place up.
Cat Stark returns. Also is Stannis confirmed dead?
I don’t know, my disappointment thus far hasn’t been that x character didn’t do the thing they ‘should’ do, I quite like some of the angles, just the setup/payoff on a whole bunch has been off for me.
I didn’t mind Arya killing the delightful dude of the NK necessarily but it was too simple and too lacking in drama, Bran should have done something cool, or had a chat with the NK. Have them trigger the ambush and he kills a whole bunch of people, things look desperate Arya gets a desperation kill or, whatever really. Swapping faces with Bran would be a bit gimmicky but still way more clever than her jumping from seemingly nowhere.
That Jon has at times been rendered impotent lately is fine by me, and his sticking to an oath vs doing the pragmatic thing coming back to bite him, tying in rather neatly with Ned Stark.
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What's with the clown memes?
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On May 14 2019 20:10 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men I think you could see she was totally unstable and that her altruistic vernish was cracking a bit more with every setback. I like the fact that she snaps brutally, it’s like a dam breaking under pressure. It’s like the mad king heritage just awoke in the worst possible moment. And i think the advantage is that we thought she was the “good” side until the very last moment, which makes for a much more interesting ending. Now, of all alternative we realize that Westeros business as usual, Cercei was by far the least terrible. by far? you smoking? o.o
my boy throwing some serious shade at Bobby B here
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On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men
Exactly. Instead, it presents us with Varys suggesting that she’s suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time.
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On May 14 2019 21:29 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men Exactly. Instead, it presents us with Varys suggesting that she’s suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time.
I mean no evidence other than the fact that her penchant for bloodlust had been growing over course of the show. At the start it was just that she punished the guilty. Then she openly had to be talked out of burning cities to the ground while in Essos.
Then we come to Westeros and she is burning people for not wanting to bend the knee (because that will clearly inspire the loyalty needed to rule).
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On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major.
My hope for Arya is that she never kills anyone again and just goes home to help her sister rule the north. As the show cleanly pointed out, vengeance is a kinda fucked up life goal.
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On May 14 2019 21:56 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 21:29 karazax wrote:On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men Exactly. Instead, it presents us with Varys suggesting that she’s suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time. I mean no evidence other than the fact that her penchant for bloodlust had been growing over course of the show. At the start it was just that she punished the guilty. Then she openly had to be talked out of burning cities to the ground while in Essos. Then we come to Westeros and she is burning people for not wanting to bend the knee (because that will clearly inspire the loyalty needed to rule).
I worked well for Aegon the Conqueror.. except in Dorne. No amount of innocent people burning and city destroying got them to accept his rule.
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The people claiming Dany going mad was a suprise and a twist. Have you been watching the same show? What the hell.
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Northern Ireland26799 Posts
On May 14 2019 22:22 TaKeTV wrote:
The people claiming Dany going mad was a suprise and a twist. Have you been watching the same show? What the hell.
It had foreshadowing but, to that degree of mayhem?
If Dany just made a beeline for the Red Keep, blew it up, igniting some wildfire that killed a ton of innocents, I’m absolutely fine with that, her bloodlust and impulsivity could get a lot of people killed without her turning into a genocidal maniac. Actively siccing her dragon on fleeing women and children I mean come on, it’s too much of a flip that isn’t earned.
Why is she burning the whole city instead of just her enemy. An enemy who it’s already been said doesn’t give a shit about her subjects and is using them as human shields, so there’s not even the ‘I’ll teach you a lesson by burning your beloved subjects’ angle
Like the Night King being killed and his army being stopped didn’t surprise me, Dany going mad queen didn’t, but how it was executed and how silly it was absolutely did.
Also great job on the Iron Couch, was going to go to my first Homestory this year but couldn’t get leave off work 
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On May 14 2019 22:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major. My hope for Arya is that she never kills anyone again and just goes home to help her sister rule the north. As the show cleanly pointed out, vengeance is a kinda fucked up life goal.
Arya is a sociopath though. Sociopaths don't just change.
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I don't understand why people have so many problems with Dany (badly executed and overly genocidal) but still somewhat to be expected turn to violence against the people that took everything from her.
But everyone's ok with Jon Snow being so shit of a leader and king that he can't even control the soldiers next to him from rape and pillaging. Like he has so little influence on them that they ignore his orders? They could be hanged for that, but they're like meh it's just Jon who cares he ain't gonna do shit. It's so so so bad.
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United States43990 Posts
On May 14 2019 18:45 VHbb wrote:Using the usual key-words does not constitute a good critique of the episode  You cannot just repeat "Arya's plot armour" to make it look like you are exposing a clear fault of the episode: it's not plot armour, she's not supposed to die there, and you know from the beginning that she won't, it's just a way of giving a point of view from inside the city from a character you care about / know (rather than one of the city people that you don't know) Who cares if it's "unlikely" she would have survived?? Would you have preferred that she goes in, does not kill Cercei, and dies trying to escape? It works fine, even if she does not die where she most likely would, it's not "plot armour", it's just a way of telling the story. Also, it's a TV show and a story, not a video game: last episode they were taken by surprise by Euron's fleet which landed some good shots on one of the dragons. This time it does not work, as the remaining dragon flies around the line of sight of the ballistae. Is it absurd? no, for sure it's very risky and she could have been hit at any time, but that does not happen -- it's not a plot hole or something out of order.. I don't know, honestly, it looks like you watch the episode with the only intent of writing harsh posts here Of course you can do that, I'm sure that if you felt this show was shit after S1, you would have done the same with the first episodes, and found reasons to hate them all the same! Things I liked: - Jon's character, we actually do see the consequences of his stubbornness and "honor code": he's starting to see that Dany is not the queen he expected, but he does not want to take it upon himself to rule, and he's bind to serve here.. which leads to dire consequences - similarly for Tyrion, he makes a choice (following Daenerys) and now he faces the consequences - Jamie's character, I think it makes full sense that he wants to end his story with Cercei (tbh I found his romantic story with Brienne a bit forced, it would have been enough to have them as close friends / knights) Jamie's and Cercei's actor/actress are also quite amazing - Arya and the Hound - I think Euron's end was perfectly fitting: that's his character, like it or not, he went out as he should have Things I liked less: - Davos in the first line with Jon and the Unsullied captain, he's not a fighter, I'd have liked him more somewhere else - I'd have liked some more shots of the Golden company fighting, rather than being obliterated immediately! not that it matters for the story though Probably many more on both sides, these are just the few points I still have in mind. About the next and last episode: I don't think it'll be that easy to de-throne Daenerys and process her for burning everything down. I'd expect both the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied (even if few) to fully support her, and she still has a dragon to fight by her side. I wonder if she dies somehow (Arya kills her for example) what will be of the dragon? At this point the most likely ending to me seems like an empty iron throne (without much meaning behind it anyway) and each reign governing itself. I agree that Jon has little claim to any power (and he doesn't want it).
They weren’t taken by surprise. The show told us she was taken by surprise but the show had previously established that she knew about the fleet and also that they were airborne and would easily see a fleet before the fleet saw them. It was only through magically accurate ballistae on cloaked ships that they got it.
This idea of surprise isn’t supported by the story.
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I think that Arya will reconsider Gendry;s offer at the end
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On May 14 2019 22:36 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 22:04 Plansix wrote:On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major. My hope for Arya is that she never kills anyone again and just goes home to help her sister rule the north. As the show cleanly pointed out, vengeance is a kinda fucked up life goal. Arya is a sociopath though. Sociopaths don't just change.
I would argue the Hound is/was a sociopath, but tried to live a life without violence after almost dying and did form meaningful human connections with people like Arya. But he got dragged back in by violent people murdering the community he was part of. Arya, being nobility, has access to resources that could let her while avoiding violence to an even greater extent than the Hound. Especially if her sister protects her from having to do violent things.
On May 14 2019 22:43 M2 wrote:
I think that Arya will reconsider Gendry;s offer at the end
I don't think Arya will ever be able to be in a relationship the way Gendry wants. But I think it is interesting to think about what type of life and relationships she could form. I could see her being Sansa's "Hound", being a loyal guard to her family and sister while living a life that is less traditional and distant.
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Northern Ireland26799 Posts
On May 14 2019 22:36 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 22:04 Plansix wrote:On May 14 2019 20:37 -Archangel- wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. Arya killed NK, it is Jon's turn to do something major. My hope for Arya is that she never kills anyone again and just goes home to help her sister rule the north. As the show cleanly pointed out, vengeance is a kinda fucked up life goal. Arya is a sociopath though. Sociopaths don't just change.
She has never been though, cold and a bit preoccupied with revenge yes, sociopath no.
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On May 14 2019 21:56 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 21:29 karazax wrote:On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men Exactly. Instead, it presents us with Varys suggesting that she’s suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time. I mean no evidence other than the fact that her penchant for bloodlust had been growing over course of the show. At the start it was just that she punished the guilty. Then she openly had to be talked out of burning cities to the ground while in Essos. Then we come to Westeros and she is burning people for not wanting to bend the knee (because that will clearly inspire the loyalty needed to rule).
Being merciless to enemies is hardly comparable to randomly killing innocents. Especially when protecting innocents has been one of her primary concerns since season 1.
Every past and present leader on the show from every faction has done something that could be considered merciless to enemies, including Jon hanging a 10 year old. Nobody thinks these were signs they might be going mad.
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