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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
That was a really good episode. I could have done with a little less destruction and dying, I understood how terrible everything was after the first 10 minutes of suffering. But that they were not afraid to do this was very nice.
I basically agree with what was said on the last page: Given the way they have written the last seasons (which was very bad), that episode was the best I could hope for.
I have never viewed this show as the best thing ever. From looking at the discussion here I am very certain that it does not matter how they end the series in season eight, there always would be so much complaining.
Varys storyline obviously should have gotten more time, if there were more episodes. I would have prefered Cersei and/or Jamie getting out, feels a little easy to just let them die like this.
There is also no storyline where Jon can be king... he took part in the killing of thousands of civilians. No matter how violently he might kill Danny the next episode, he led her to King's Landing, he is responsible.
But again, who sits on the iron throne in the end has always been pointless. Borrowed time.
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United States43989 Posts
Why is she burning a city with her own army inside? A city known to have a lake of wildfire underneath it.
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Every week we try to predict who's going to die first in that episode, this week I got Varys right, mostly thanks to all of the people here.
But on the criticism, I think it's become a trend to bash everything. Except for the pace of the whole show, I didn't have much trouble with this episode. Dany turning mad has been coming for a few episodes now. Mind you, there's a lot more time between scenes now than there was before, so this has taken many months. Ever since she's arrived in Westeros, things have not gone that well, even though she thought just getting the ships to cross the Narrow Sea would be biggest hurdle. 2 dragons died, Missandei, Jorah, Varys died, she isn't popular with anyone, she lost part of the fleet, her advisors are doing a shit job, Jon has more claim to the throne, that secret came out, so her position as a ruler is looking grim. What might have made the whole scene more believable is some more shots showing her mental warface during the rain of fire.
Cleganebowl was never something I looked forward to, so it didn't really disappoint either. Many things that are odd could have been fixed with small changes. The second dragon dying to the scorpions this episode, arya climbing into a tree to kill NK, Jamie strangling Cercei with his metal hand, then getting killed by debris, Jamie plain beating Euron instead of walking on after getting stabbed could have been easy fixes that don't require complete overhauls.
Things that are still strange:
- why is King's Landing next to a grassy desert?
- what was the deal with the horse and Arya in KL? Is it symbolic?
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On May 14 2019 07:25 Faruko wrote:
having watched all season in like 13 days
maggy never talks about the valonqar in the show, she only says cersei will be queen and another younger more beatiful will come and take all what she holds, and that she will only have 3 kids, and she did: Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen.
so the prophecy isn't actually unfulfillled, the things actually happened, is just not the same as the books
Didn't Cersei have a fourth child in the show? One of Robert's, before Jaime's?
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On May 14 2019 12:30 KwarK wrote:
Why is she burning a city with her own army inside? A city known to have a lake of wildfire underneath it.
Because green fire looks cool on a 50 inch flatscreen.
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On May 14 2019 16:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 12:30 KwarK wrote:
Why is she burning a city with her own army inside? A city known to have a lake of wildfire underneath it. Because green fire looks cool on a 50 inch flatscreen.
Or because it’s been clear she was turning madder and madder by the day for several seasons.
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On May 14 2019 16:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 16:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 14 2019 12:30 KwarK wrote:
Why is she burning a city with her own army inside? A city known to have a lake of wildfire underneath it. Because green fire looks cool on a 50 inch flatscreen. Or because it’s been clear she was turning madder and madder by the day for several seasons.
Sorry but I gave up trying to discern motivations from characters' actions in this show a while ago. It doesn't really work like that any more.
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On May 14 2019 16:42 JimmiC wrote:
I was also wondering if the horse is going to end up as something from Bran. Also from the preview I thought there was a LOT less Doth-raki after heading into the darkness to die to dead people and also less unsullied left.
It's a new convention of art the show is trying to establish:
Tell, don't show.
You see all the Dothraki dying, but they tell you half survived.
You see most of the Unsullied dying, but they tell you half survived.
You see Tyrion's plans fail over and over for several seasons, but they tell you (over and over again) how clever he his.
As someone who came into the last episode expecting the very worst, I thought this was the best we could hope for.
They did a 180 on Jaime and wasted a lot of time on Porn Parody Euron, and Arya's plot armor made her whole escape from the city a bit less suspenseful, but overall I liked it. Perhaps that would have been a great send-off for Ser Davos, an intense, suspenseful chase through the city where he leads a bunch of people out.
The final episode's quality for me will depend largely on the consequences Dany will face for her genocide. If she gets her own Nürnberg trial and her, Greyworm, the Dothraki and the pillaging Northerners will face the gallows at the end of the episode, I'll be pleased.
If Tyrion and Jon (and worse, Ser Davos) just fall in line, I will be quite upset.
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Big shoutout to Bobby B, the best king Westeros ever saw.
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Using the usual key-words does not constitute a good critique of the episode 
You cannot just repeat "Arya's plot armour" to make it look like you are exposing a clear fault of the episode: it's not plot armour, she's not supposed to die there, and you know from the beginning that she won't, it's just a way of giving a point of view from inside the city from a character you care about / know (rather than one of the city people that you don't know)
Who cares if it's "unlikely" she would have survived?? Would you have preferred that she goes in, does not kill Cercei, and dies trying to escape?
It works fine, even if she does not die where she most likely would, it's not "plot armour", it's just a way of telling the story.
Also, it's a TV show and a story, not a video game: last episode they were taken by surprise by Euron's fleet which landed some good shots on one of the dragons. This time it does not work, as the remaining dragon flies around the line of sight of the ballistae. Is it absurd? no, for sure it's very risky and she could have been hit at any time, but that does not happen -- it's not a plot hole or something out of order..
I don't know, honestly, it looks like you watch the episode with the only intent of writing harsh posts here
Of course you can do that, I'm sure that if you felt this show was shit after S1, you would have done the same with the first episodes, and found reasons to hate them all the same!
Things I liked:
- Jon's character, we actually do see the consequences of his stubbornness and "honor code": he's starting to see that Dany is not the queen he expected, but he does not want to take it upon himself to rule, and he's bind to serve here.. which leads to dire consequences
- similarly for Tyrion, he makes a choice (following Daenerys) and now he faces the consequences
- Jamie's character, I think it makes full sense that he wants to end his story with Cercei (tbh I found his romantic story with Brienne a bit forced, it would have been enough to have them as close friends / knights)
Jamie's and Cercei's actor/actress are also quite amazing
- Arya and the Hound
- I think Euron's end was perfectly fitting: that's his character, like it or not, he went out as he should have
Things I liked less:
- Davos in the first line with Jon and the Unsullied captain, he's not a fighter, I'd have liked him more somewhere else
- I'd have liked some more shots of the Golden company fighting, rather than being obliterated immediately! not that it matters for the story though
Probably many more on both sides, these are just the few points I still have in mind.
About the next and last episode: I don't think it'll be that easy to de-throne Daenerys and process her for burning everything down. I'd expect both the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied (even if few) to fully support her, and she still has a dragon to fight by her side.
I wonder if she dies somehow (Arya kills her for example) what will be of the dragon?
At this point the most likely ending to me seems like an empty iron throne (without much meaning behind it anyway) and each reign governing itself. I agree that Jon has little claim to any power (and he doesn't want it).
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On May 14 2019 17:37 Cricketer12 wrote:
Big shoutout to Bobby B, the best king Westeros ever saw.
Bobby B had it right all along when he wanted to kill Dany when she was still little.
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I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys.
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On May 14 2019 18:45 VHbb wrote:Using the usual key-words does not constitute a good critique of the episode You cannot just repeat "Arya's plot armour" to make it look like you are exposing a clear fault of the episode: it's not plot armour, she's not supposed to die there, and you know from the beginning that she won't, it's just a way of giving a point of view from inside the city from a character you care about / know (rather than one of the city people that you don't know)
I think it completely made sense that she survived this.
She's still small, quick, sneaky, has amazing survival instincts that she's honed since season 1. Her situational awareness must be on a level with Sterling Archer. That made complete sense to me.
But it also meant that there was no suspense in that scene because everyone knew she was never in any danger.
Now, had they substituted her for any other 'set of eyes', Davos or Jon for instance, that would have made for a much more suspenseful scene in my view. But I have no issue with that scene in general, well done, visually impressive and really showed how ugly WMDs are.
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On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys.
I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents.
When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of:
1. innocent civilians
2. soldiers who surrendered
3. her own men
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On May 14 2019 19:53 love2d wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 18:45 VHbb wrote:Using the usual key-words does not constitute a good critique of the episode You cannot just repeat "Arya's plot armour" to make it look like you are exposing a clear fault of the episode: it's not plot armour, she's not supposed to die there, and you know from the beginning that she won't, it's just a way of giving a point of view from inside the city from a character you care about / know (rather than one of the city people that you don't know) I think it completely made sense that she survived this. She's still small, quick, sneaky, has amazing survival instincts that she's honed since season 1. Her situational awareness must be on a level with Sterling Archer. That made complete sense to me. But it also meant that there was no suspense in that scene because everyone knew she was never in any danger. Now, had they substituted her for any other 'set of eyes', Davos or Jon for instance, that would have made for a much more suspenseful scene in my view. But I have no issue with that scene in general, well done, visually impressive and really showed how ugly WMDs are.
I was genuinely worried for her. I think she could have totally died there, from a narrative perspective.
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On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men
I think you could see she was totally unstable and that her altruistic vernish was cracking a bit more with every setback. I like the fact that she snaps brutally, it’s like a dam breaking under pressure. It’s like the mad king heritage just awoke in the worst possible moment.
And i think the advantage is that we thought she was the “good” side until the very last moment, which makes for a much more interesting ending. Now, of all alternative we realize that Westeros business as usual, Cercei was by far the least terrible.
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On May 14 2019 20:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 19:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 14 2019 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I can totally see Arya killing Daenerys and be the one that stops both “fire” and “ice”.
Daenerys going full Anakin is a great turn of event and makes a lot of sense narration wise. At the end, ironically, the plottings of the seven kingdoms, with the intrigues, wars and betrayals were a much lesser evil than both the white walker and Daenerys. I don't mind Daenerys going full mad queen. What I mind is how little build up there was. We never saw her going slightly mad. Over the span of about half an episode she went from "not mad at all" to "burn them all!!!! *mouthfroth*" after 7 seasons in which she was trying her hardest to find the balance between just ruler and tyrant. I mean... she spent god knows how long in Meereen "learning how to rule" then eventually travelled north to fight against the dead because it was the "right thing to do". She was shown as struggling with the balance between taking and holding power, and showing mercy and forgiveness. She was never shown as having problems with going batshit insane (that was her brother, and her father). Is it possible she descends into madness? Absolutely. Did they show that descent? No. So all we got is Varys "fearing" her madness into her going stark staring bonkers and burning a city full of innocents. When she took flight despite the city surrendering I was expecting she would fly to the red keep and torch the castle (and Cersei). I even kinda expected that to light up the wildfyre caches all over the city, leading to the same effect. But it made zero sense for her to start her flight by laying waste to the city full of: 1. innocent civilians 2. soldiers who surrendered 3. her own men I think you could see she was totally unstable and that her altruistic vernish was cracking a bit more with every setback. I like the fact that she snaps brutally, it’s like a dam breaking under pressure. It’s like the mad king heritage just awoke in the worst possible moment. And i think the advantage is that we thought she was the “good” side until the very last moment, which makes for a much more interesting ending. Now, of all alternative we realize that Westeros business as usual, Cercei was by far the least terrible.
You have the memory of a goldfish. It was only last season that Cersei did her own level best to blow up King's Landing.
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EPT
