On June 22 2016 11:02 Hider wrote: There is a difference between being mad and forcing a battle that will kill yourself and 3000 other people 99% of the time.
He didn't know it was a 99% loss. He also didn't anticipate the tactical 50:50 trade of Ramsay shooting in to the fight, which took any sort of fighting skill out of the equation, and with less numbers ensured a loss. He also probably felt the wildlings would do better, because his experience is in scrappy melees, not pitched battles and formation fighting. Rob was the one who got that sort of training.
Regardless, once he recruited his 3000, he can't just walk away from the fight. He'd lose whoever joined him and get sandwiched between walkers and Ramsay, Sansa raped, wildlings killed etc. He realized the odds were against him, but that battle was his best chance to shatter Ramsay's aura and take back the north. The giant was also an X-factor capable of routing the boltons if their morale had been weakened.
Jon also had very little intel on the Bolton forces, and assumed they would have low morale cause Ramsay's a lunatic. He had less supplies, winter is coming and the more he waited, the more his allies would dwindle.How long do you think you could keep an army of wildlings mixed with northerners together (we saw them fighting already) if you're just waiting for Ramsay to come north?? That in itself is a huge incentive to attack. Also consider that Jon's told the houses supporting him that he's trying to take back the North and defeat Ramsay. Sitting as far north as possible, waiting for Ramsay is a hard sell and looks weak, something Northerners despise. The northern houses' support is already shaky and it'd look like he's just hiding up north using their soldiers to keep him and his wildling friends alive. He'd have started having desertions in no time and been in a similar situation to Stannis (who was also forced in to taking an all-or-nothing battle) with even fewer numbers. Davos is even with Jon and saw what attrition did to Stannis' army. Delaying and staying on the defensive is just not a good option and it had already been clearly established in Stannis' campaign (they even camped in the same spot). Revenge doesn't even need to come into it.
Even if Rickon wasn't in Winterfell, Jon would still need to attack. He's not going to sacrifice his men purely for revenge. The only other option besides waiting (not a viable plan) is abandoning his men and sneaking away, which honour (he's basically Ned's son) and his loyalty to Sansa and the wildlings prevents him from doing. The battle was a gamble, but it was the best chance they were going to get.
On June 22 2016 11:02 Hider wrote: give me one example of something comparable in Game of Thrones previously. E.g. an example of a main character deciding to sacrifice his life in an offensive action (where they had a choice to be defensive and a long time to consider his/her options).
A ridiculously specific way to prove you're right, although Tyrion sallying forth from the safety of the walls in s02e09 is somewhat similar, and he was also saved by a last-minute cavalry charge. Even if that doesn't count, something not happening prior in a story doesn't make it unjustifiable. I personally think Jon made the only choice he could in his situation, he could have executed the battle far better of course but I would've taken the battle too, in his situation.
As for saying the show should try and reduce plot armour... I can't think of any show that does it better. Plot armour happens when you build a story; characters become vital elements that have been built up over time, of course it's hard to kill them. It isn't bad writing, plot armour is a natural bi-product of any sort of character driven narrative and complaining about it is pointless.
As for saying the show should try and reduce plot armour... I can't think of any show that does it better. Plot armour happens when you build a story; characters become vital elements that have been built up over time, of course it's hard to kill them. It isn't bad writing, plot armour is a natural bi-product of any sort of character driven narrative and complaining about it is pointless.
While i agree 100% with this, the author doesn't need to create close to death situations for characters which are still needed. Or if he does, there needs to be a reasonable way out of it. I think Jon's situation was ok. Arya though? That definitely crossed the line and was simply stupid to set up that way when Arya is still needed for the story.
On June 22 2016 13:27 Hexe wrote: Whats your guys thoughts on Outlander? Just started watching s2 now. Feel like its pretty good substitute
Outlander s1 went from utterly boring herbalism infused mills & boon to gay torture porn. It's not even comparable, worst series i've ever put myself through. Vikings/black sails are much better substitutes
On June 22 2016 13:27 Hexe wrote: Whats your guys thoughts on Outlander? Just started watching s2 now. Feel like its pretty good substitute
Outlander s1 went from utterly boring herbalism infused mills & boon to gay torture porn. It's not even comparable, worst series i've ever put myself through. Vikings/black sails are much better substitutes
Wow you would put those two above Outlander? I feel like Outlander's production alone is head and shoulders above, let alone the narrative. I havent watched Vikings though...
On June 22 2016 13:27 Hexe wrote: Whats your guys thoughts on Outlander? Just started watching s2 now. Feel like its pretty good substitute
Outlander s1 went from utterly boring herbalism infused mills & boon to gay torture porn. It's not even comparable, worst series i've ever put myself through. Vikings/black sails are much better substitutes
Wow you would put those two above Outlander? I feel like Outlander's production alone is head and shoulders above, let alone the narrative. I havent watched Vikings though...
Vikings is amazing, probably my 4th of 5th favorite show of all time, behind Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, and Parks and Rec.
I thought Rome was alright, I binge watched it in like 3 days, and I actually wasn't that familiar with Roman History, so it was pretty neat since I didn't know what was going to happen, but then I found out all this stuff actually happened (silly me). Rome was good because its large budget created good scenes, but it wasn't particularly deep like GoT or Vikings in my opinion.
I was in the same boat as you a while back, looking for new shows to watch, and I ended up watching some I didn't like, so I'll tell you now in case you haven't seen them yet - Walking Dead and Hannibal (can't believe I watched all of it) are garbage. Boardwalk Empire is well made and good, I think you might like that if you enjoy a good story. Two nice light-hearted shows when you like to take away from the seriousness that are going on right now are Brooklyn Nine Nine and Bob's Burgers.
Anyway, I'm offering you recommendations for other things based on what myself and other Game of Thrones fans I know personally enjoyed. I think it's kind of silly to want to watch a more or less replica of GoT, and being exposed to new genres is usually nice.
Also, I'm always looking for suggestions myself based on the information I provided
How is that when the main thrust of the story is everyone dieing off one by one until reinforcements show up to finaly kill the tank in the end?
Just realizing this now but the reason why daenerys knew where to look for drogon/why she went off near randomly in the middle of the hill/desert place two episodes ago is because the characters in the telltales video game told her they saw drogan there. Thought that was a fun tidbit.
On June 22 2016 14:08 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you guys didn't watch ROME yet, that show is worth it even though they had to end it after two seasons
Rome was pretty good!
It was a shame that they only got a 2nd (and not a 3rd) season approved after S1 though and had to cram something like 30 years of story into a single season.
But yeah, S1 was outstanding. Lots of faces from GoT as well in there
How is that when the main thrust of the story is everyone dieing off one by one until reinforcements show up to finaly kill the tank in the end?
Just realizing this now but the reason why daenerys knew where to look for drogon/why she went off near randomly in the middle of the hill/desert place two episodes ago is because the characters in the telltales video game told her they saw drogan there. Thought that was a fun tidbit.
That is a fun little bit of theory there. I am just glad they have gotten over to the drogon being useful again.
God that dragon queen actress makes me cringe so much. She is absolutelly the wrong pick for that role. Shes just extremelly pretty and thats all, no stature, no authority in her act no anything. She's the kind of girl that you are dying to have sex with and then when you do, you cant listen to her for 5 seconds anymore and you just want to get to hell out of there.
I have gone full mad for much less than that in real life.
There is a difference between being mad and forcing a battle that will kill yourself and 3000 other people 99% of the time.
There is not. You are again trying to bring rational arguments (people dying) to something which is not (wanting some dude stomped really bad).
And about "everything being allowed because dumb feelings". If you are able to portray it and transmit it to the watchers that way, why the hell not.
To be honest, what i find that your expections out of Jon's character are inhumane. Did he act wrong and against his interests ? Yes, absolutely, but that does not make it out of character or bad writing. It makes him human, and one that always tries to act rightfull and had lost most of his family members, his brotherhood, his own life. He keeps losing and losing and he finally cracks open. Dunno, i found it perfect, specially after Melissandre's resurrection to know if he truly is still human.
So well, at the end i don't want to turn this into a who is more right or whatever, since it's useless and i apologize if i had come like that, but to me it just makes sense that way, and luckily i found it enjoyable, sad you didn't.
And yes, i had got into fights or situations that could had gotten me potentially killed. I guess i am heavily biased because that scene reminded me of one of my teenagers nights out with 3 friends, a group of 20+ surrounded us and hitted one of my friends really hard on an ear, dropping almost unconscious, the others two ran in a different direction and i was alone carrying him, i carry him receiving punchs, kicks, insults, and laughs on my back, until i managed to get him safe 200m ahead and run away. All those pricks were chasing me, and one of them shout at me faggot (as coward). A guy, trying to beat me up on a 20vs1, was calling me a coward. Switch on, turned back and charged the fucker, stomped his head against a car repeatdly until the rest managed to get into me. Due to the anger state i was on, i still managed to fight even with 2 of them on top of me, while i was sending them literally flying thanks to adrenaline. Don't remember much, i had received punchs and kicks everywhere except the face but i was perfectly fine, a few porters i knew finally stepped on my behalf and helped me to rout them.
If one of them had a knife or decided to escalate the fight, i would probably ended up dead. It was really stupid of me to do that instead of keep running because i was definitly faster than them, but i could not control it. I didn't give a fuck about anything else than stomping that cunt's head. It's amazingly stupid, but i had to endure a lot to get my friend safe until i finally just couldn't bear it anymore and went full berserk.
I honestly thought GRRM had a plan for all six Stark kids but... Rickon didn't do jack crap during the entirety of GoT and then just died in a single episode...
EPT
