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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 20 2016 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:
Also bemusing was the Masters 'negotiation'.
Their attack made sense, Daenarys was gone, the city was vulnerable but when she comes back surely they remember she has adolescent dragons and they have a fleet of wooden ship. They seemed rather surprised the Mother of Dragons has dragons.
She was never able to control them though which was pretty well known. Well not never but not since she is in Mereen.
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10/10
cant believe some of the ppl here, talk about nitpicking. even in book thread nobody is complaining xD anyways, well above hardhome for me. amazing battle sequences. i was genuinely worried for jon, tormund and davos whole episode.
oh yeah, battle started in the morning, look at the sky in dagger scene with rickon. when stark flags are lifted its well past mid-day, look at the sky. plus a lot friendly fire. makes wall of death believable to me (even tho a lot of ppl in pile of bodies were still alive, as was shown).
one thing i noticed was vale army arrived before phalanx even started advancing. sansa was with littlefinger. did she wait on purpose? makes me worried she'll do something retarded next episode.
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On June 20 2016 15:50 BluzMan wrote:
Come on give Wun Wun a bow ballista, snipe Ramsay, ride home.
Fixed that for you 
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everything sansa does pisses me off and makes me think she is gonna f everything up
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On June 20 2016 15:44 stuchiu wrote:
The conversation between Jon and Sansa was so dumb
Ok, I'm listening whatdo you want to say?
We can't attack we need a larger army!
Where do we get this army?
Don't fight!
Doesn't bother to tell Jon she can get Littlefinger and the vale to come. Somehow teleports in Littlefinger's army and somehow no one saw a massive army travel north cause apparently scouts don't exist in this timeline.
Damn that was frustrating.
Also can't handle a complete lack of military tactics. Hannibal could have conquered Westeros in like 6 months tops.
Sansa sent Ravens for help last episode.
I miss Hannibal, best show for a while for me. Can't believe HBO did'nt make at least 8 seasons.
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Wow this was really amazing, the battle felt so real and visceral. That shot with John wondering around with sword and mayhem all around him was so good. Or the moving spearmen creating phalanx. Or how they created the feeling of getting crushed in a mob. Loved it 10/10
Wall of bodies was awesome too. When a 1000 horse and men crash into each other they don't fade away when the graphics card runs out of memory like in games guys. Also the bodies create movement issues so more men will die at that spot because of it, kind of cascading effect. Yes they were perfectly placed for the encirclement but that's creative freedom.
Yes battle tactics were stupid and god awful from both Jon and Ramsey but I didn't expect anything better from the northmen, Rob was the only commander to even have a clue. I mean winter is coming and they have 0 fighting men left xD way to go boys. And girls.
I'm looking at you Sansa. You let your brother's men and your own people die for no reason. 'Yo Jon, about this manpower problem, you know, there's actually a full army of mounted knights in the vicinity that might help us.' Looking at her smug look when they charge she doesn't even realise it. Fuck that, hope she doesn't last another season! I support Bear Island for the command of Winterfell now, that 11 year old girl is the north's last hope of getting someone that doesn't lead them into death, misery or despair.
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On June 20 2016 21:03 ETisME wrote:
everything sansa does pisses me off and makes me think she is gonna f everything up
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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On June 20 2016 21:03 ETisME wrote:
everything sansa does pisses me off and makes me think she is gonna f everything up
Jon was the stupid one this episode. He let himself be provoked by Ramsay so that he charged in and his army follows. Their whole battle plan collapsed and Ramsay's superior cunning would have won the day. And that after Sansa specifically warned John to not do what Ramsay wants. Then Sansa saved his ass with the Arryn army. Of course she should have come sooner and told John in advance. But I am assuming this was just done to build suspension for the battle and almost has to be disregarded as a plot point.
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This shows why spears, halberds and the like ruled historical battlefields. Swords were mostly used as backup and self-defence weapons and in civilian life because they can be carried around conveniently as a sidearm. Also, they were much harder to make and expensive. I wonder what lindybeige and scholagladiatoria on Youtube will have to say about this battle.
Historical accuracy aside, not even in a fantasy setting should a giant go to battle unarmed. I wish he had taken a dead horse and smashed the shield wall with it.
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On June 20 2016 21:31 Scorch wrote:
This shows why spears, halberds and the like ruled historical battlefields. Swords were mostly used as backup and self-defence weapons and in civilian life because they can be carried around conveniently as a sidearm. Also, they were much harder to make and expensive. I wonder what lindybeige and scholagladiatoria on Youtube will have to say about this battle.
Historical accuracy aside, not even in a fantasy setting should a giant go to battle unarmed. I wish he had taken a dead horse and smashed the shield wall with it.
You think the giant would have atleast brought a tree club with him :p
The problem people have is not the effectiveness of the spear but the fact that the wildlings actively stop fighting and stand around while being encircled, its not even that they would be surprised and unsure what is happening. Your in the middle of a fight for your life, your not going to stop and wonder what is going on, you keep going, keep pushing forward.
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really good action, i dont like smug dany&sansa getting free wins for being smug, but i guess tyrion can still reel dany in from time to time so she doesnt go full retard and sansa... well allying with littlefinger is its own risk i guess.
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On June 20 2016 21:35 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 21:31 Scorch wrote:
This shows why spears, halberds and the like ruled historical battlefields. Swords were mostly used as backup and self-defence weapons and in civilian life because they can be carried around conveniently as a sidearm. Also, they were much harder to make and expensive. I wonder what lindybeige and scholagladiatoria on Youtube will have to say about this battle.
Historical accuracy aside, not even in a fantasy setting should a giant go to battle unarmed. I wish he had taken a dead horse and smashed the shield wall with it. You think the giant would have atleast brought a tree club with him :p The problem people have is not the effectiveness of the spear but the fact that the wildlings actively stop fighting and stand around while being encircled, its not even that they would be surprised and unsure what is happening. Your in the middle of a fight for your life, your not going to stop and wonder what is going on, you keep going, keep pushing forward.
It was explained in the episode imo. Tormund had no idea about military tactics so his men would know even less and they got baited in and no time to think because Jon got mad.
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On June 20 2016 21:41 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 21:35 Gorsameth wrote:On June 20 2016 21:31 Scorch wrote:
This shows why spears, halberds and the like ruled historical battlefields. Swords were mostly used as backup and self-defence weapons and in civilian life because they can be carried around conveniently as a sidearm. Also, they were much harder to make and expensive. I wonder what lindybeige and scholagladiatoria on Youtube will have to say about this battle.
Historical accuracy aside, not even in a fantasy setting should a giant go to battle unarmed. I wish he had taken a dead horse and smashed the shield wall with it. You think the giant would have atleast brought a tree club with him :p The problem people have is not the effectiveness of the spear but the fact that the wildlings actively stop fighting and stand around while being encircled, its not even that they would be surprised and unsure what is happening. Your in the middle of a fight for your life, your not going to stop and wonder what is going on, you keep going, keep pushing forward. It was explained in the episode imo. Tormund had no idea about military tactics so his men would know even less and they got baited in and no time to think because Jon got mad.
They literally walked within arm reach of the wildlings who patiently waited around dumbfounded until they were encircled.
That is not just a lack of military tactics.
I could see them missing the encirclement while they were occupied killing of the cavalry but we are clearly shown that is over, they stand around idle, swords in hand looking dumbfounded as it happens ><
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the battle was good but i got a bit bored i don't know why
top tier episode though
a feeling of the battle of cannae during the episode even if it wasn't truly like that
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On June 20 2016 21:31 Scorch wrote:
This shows why spears, halberds and the like ruled historical battlefields. Swords were mostly used as backup and self-defence weapons and in civilian life because they can be carried around conveniently as a sidearm. Also, they were much harder to make and expensive. I wonder what lindybeige and scholagladiatoria on Youtube will have to say about this battle.
Historical accuracy aside, not even in a fantasy setting should a giant go to battle unarmed. I wish he had taken a dead horse and smashed the shield wall with it.
Westeros, the land where almost no one uses swords and shields, spears are hated and full plated knights don’t use maces or any other weapons used to fight full plated knights. Also the world where you can ride 20 mph on a horse, hit someone with a sword and not have it be ripped out of your hand.
I love Game of Thrones, but I have accepted that all the depictions of combat are for cinematic reasons. That swords are used because they are safer for the actors and stunt men and women. Ride by horse combat is because shooting stun shots with horse is super dangerous.
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On June 20 2016 14:52 KwarK wrote:
It's like the masters completely forgot that Valyrians have dragons which is odd given that their cities were previously conquered by Valyrians with dragons and the Valyrian in front of them has Mother of Dragons as one of her titles. They think they've won and then suddenly she has the thing that her, and her family, and her people are all known for and they were like "shit, we weren't counting on that, fuuuuuuuuuuuck". And then she burns their army, composed entirely of slave soldiers in regiments akin to the Unsullied because why the hell not.
One of the demands by the masters was that they kill the dragons underneath the pyramid, so it's reasonable to assume that the masters still think the dragons are uncontrollable and still imprisoned.
On June 20 2016 14:52 KwarK wrote:
Also give your horse to an actual soldier, it probably won't make much of a difference but given lack of cavalry was specifically named as an issue they really shouldn't be horsing civilians, even noble born ones.
Not any horse can just go into combat. Horses need to be specifically trained for warfare or else they just run away from the fighting. Even a Mongolian army got routed because their horses weren't trained against gunpowder and the Mongolians lost control of their horses.
On June 20 2016 14:52 KwarK wrote:
Also I'm mad about Mel being so useless. Fantasy means I accept that Mel can sometimes give birth to shadow assassins, that's real, that's a thing, that's fine, I suspend my disbelief. Fantasy does not mean that I suspend my disbelief when 90% of their problems can be solved by using their shadow babies and they've all forgotten that she has that power. It's more a GRRM problem than a series problem but I get mad when fantasy writers introduce a power that is totally OP, use it once and then completely forget that it exists when it would be really, really useful in dozens of other situations. Obviously it'd be a boring series if they just had everyone assassinated by shadow assassins but if they didn't want to go that route then they shouldn't have introduced such a powerful, useful and widely applicable ability.
The shadow assassin has two issues. She has to get impregnated by someone with king's blood, and it also takes a significant toll on who she gets impregnated by. The reason they had Gendry at Stannis's place in season 3 was to have king's blood and not to weaken Stannis any further.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow
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On June 20 2016 21:23 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 21:03 ETisME wrote:
everything sansa does pisses me off and makes me think she is gonna f everything up Jon was the stupid one this episode. He let himself be provoked by Ramsay so that he charged in and his army follows. Their whole battle plan collapsed and Ramsay's superior cunning would have won the day. And that after Sansa specifically warned John to not do what Ramsay wants. Then Sansa saved his ass with the Arryn army. Of course she should have come sooner and told John in advance. But I am assuming this was just done to build suspension for the battle and almost has to be disregarded as a plot point.
Jon has the same problem Ned had,which ended up killing him. He's a great warrior/leader/strategist, but he's just too honorable, and he doesn't really understand that people as twisted as Ramsay exist.
The parallels to Ned/Cat are pretty strong.
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One thing I didn't get was the Masters' seeming surprise at Dany having dragons. Drogon showed up at the end of the last season to save Dany from them so they had to know dragons could be in play when attacking?
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Bolton outnumbered Stannis like this, not even half of his first column,Plus he knows 80%of Stannis has red hp bar.
While' Jon's, even tho outnumbered too, they are at least battle-ready and somewhat organized. Ramsey based on his character, wouldn't risk midlessly charging to that
Nah that's pretty close to half the army size. Horses take up a lot more space.
Anyway, the original point was that Ramsay wouldn't atack because he had a much stronger army, which is why I wrote that it made no sense.
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On June 20 2016 22:13 RowdierBob wrote:
One thing I didn't get was the Masters' seeming surprise at Dany having dragons. Drogon showed up at the end of the last season to save Dany from them so they had to know dragons could be in play when attacking?
Dany is literally the only person who has dragons. No one has ever seen them before, let alone can control them. Even if she is called the “mother of dragons” arrogant people will assume that is a myth or legends.
Never underestimate the ability for powerful people to delude themselves into believing something simply can’t be true, despite overwhelming evidence. There are so many examples seemingly intelligent people doing this throughout history. They just assumed the Dragons were a pet, myth or just some lizard she claimed was a dragon.
Also, Game of Thrones continues its love affair with the instant death throat cut. My favorite cinematic tool. Don’t want to spend money on special effects and logistics, but want someone dead? Slit their throat while the camera is behind them. It can be done with a knife or broad sword. Simple, flexible and you can just move on with your scene.
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