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some people have at least got video evidence somewhere that there are people out there with supernatural powers, who claim to do it by tapping into this mystical "force". if they have no scientific basis for these occurrences, this seems like a pretty good basis for founding and believing in religions to try to explain them, even if not everyone has seen them first-hand. after all, to this day there are multiple popular religions based on supernatural events which supposedly occurred thousands of years ago, with no evidence except the ancient folklore texts...
On December 31 2016 10:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2016 09:35 BurningSera wrote:
well ye Jedi/sith are based on monks/evil monks basically, but then 'may the force be with you' is entirely different from the 'live well and prosper' because in startrek it is basically equal to goodbye, but in SW it is more about 'good luck', we heard it more commonly when someone said to the force user (ie Jedi). actually, I remember some sith (iirc some EU material..does Kotor counts as EU lol) used that line too, so I guess 'force' really can be related to both 'religions'.
So no, bloody it is either the writer actually treats 'force'/Jedi as one religion, which is just some bad stuff right there; or they decided to cringe the shit out of some viewers like me. I'd equivalent the Force to being the base religion, with the Jedi and Sith being ideologies that spring from it. I'd make a metaphor, but I don't want to open a can of worms about a religion I'm not familiar with.
even more generally, i'd say the idea of the force is more equivalent to the concept of gods or supernatural entities in general, with the addition of some physical evidence to support it. the average force-believer has got no clue what it's actually like to use the force, and even if they do, they probably have no idea what it actually is. is it a sentient entity? is it shared among everyone, or is it just a self discipline thing? so in theory they could have wildly different philosophies and religions springing from it, maybe some worship the force as a god, maybe some worship multiple force-gods, maybe some treat it like an inner conscience, maybe some do a bunch of drugs to try to expand your mind to access the force, idk. and then of course you've got your buddhist warrior-monk style jedi philosophy too.
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Visually it was cool but basically confirms that Disney doesn't believe in hiring decent writers for this franchise. They seem to have forgotten that the original Star Wars' greatness was built on the conversations between Luke, Leia, Vader and Solo not the laser show.
The script was appalling, the only character I gave a shit about was the robot. When you kill off an entire cast including the protagonist, it should be tragic, but it seemed to have virtually no emotional impact. There were no real relationships built, and way too much time spent on shallow conversation and pointless scenes (octopus torture comes to mind). I'm not sure if it was her acting, or the lines, or both, but Jin was awful. Her two speeches (council and pre-battle) sounded like they shared a writer with Independence Day II. Constant battle scenes and fancy cgi does not build character or emotional investment. Look at what Guardians of the Galaxy got done, and compare it to this soulless nostalgic jizzfest. I'm done paying to see this shit.
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On December 31 2016 23:39 Scarecrow wrote:
Visually it was cool but basically confirms that Disney doesn't believe in hiring decent writers for this franchise. They seem to have forgotten that the original Star Wars' greatness was built on the conversations between Luke, Leia, Vader and Solo not the laser show.
The script was appalling, the only character I gave a shit about was the robot. When you kill off an entire cast including the protagonist, it should be tragic, but it seemed to have virtually no emotional impact. There were no real relationships built, and way too much time spent on shallow conversation and pointless scenes (octopus torture comes to mind). I'm not sure if it was her acting, or the lines, or both, but Jin was awful. Her two speeches (council and pre-battle) sounded like they shared a writer with Independence Day II. Constant battle scenes and fancy cgi does not build character or emotional investment. Look at what Guardians of the Galaxy got done, and compare it to this soulless nostalgic jizzfest. I'm done paying to see this shit.
The Octopus torture thing was like 45 seconds dude. Was the script really that much better in the old movies? I confess I haven't seen them in a while, but I felt as though they had some cheesy acting as well. Except Harrison Ford. Dude is awesome.
This is off topic so i'll spoiler it, but if you're in need of a good laugh
+ Show Spoiler +
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Rewatched Episode 7 for comparison.
+ Show Spoiler +Episode 7 was easily the better movie overall. I feel that I came to terms quite well with its fuzzy plot elements, so they bother me not nearly as much as they did on first viewing.
The characters are far more compelling in E7 - I liked most everyone in the main cast in Ep 7 (Rey, Finn, Kylo Ren, Hux, Poe, BB-8, Maz, the returners of course, and even Snoke starts to be alright after multiple viewings). There was one character in Rogue One who I thought was really well done (Krennic), a few which were moderately good (Jyn, the not-Jedi and the pal with the automatic blaster, and the droid), with everyone else being so-so. Frankly the cast was a suicide squad that all died, so they all turn out to be quite expendable as characters.
Visually, I saw charm in both of them. Ep 7, the Nazi rally of Hux was one of my favorite scenes in terms of visuals, while Rogue One did quite good in general in providing visual descriptions of ground-based warfare. Krennic's death squad was pretty cool. In general Rogue One did warfare scenes quite well, but Ep 7 had more grandiose flair to it.
Plot-wise, they both had moderate cheesy and/or somewhat unfeasible elements to them. It doesn't bother me because this is Star Wars and I expect that. I could criticize 4-6 for the same things, easily. I just don't care because the movie works.
If Ep 7 was inspired by and/or derivative of Ep 4, then I could say that Rogue One is somewhat derivative of the Expanded Universe material. Here and there, I see a lot of things that remind me of SW books I read, games I played, and so on. Neither bothers me because the surface-level similarities are used to tell different stories.
As a standalone, R1 did a good job, far better than I expected. I thought Ep 7 was easily the better movie though, because of its advantage in developing better characters. On most other fronts I see good in both of them but the Ep 7 characters are better, easily.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 31 2016 17:43 -NegativeZero- wrote:
some people have at least got video evidence somewhere that there are people out there with supernatural powers, who claim to do it by tapping into this mystical "force". if they have no scientific basis for these occurrences, this seems like a pretty good basis for founding and believing in religions to try to explain them, even if not everyone has seen them first-hand. after all, to this day there are multiple popular religions based on supernatural events which supposedly occurred thousands of years ago, with no evidence except the ancient folklore texts...
It's a historical error to say this... the texts in almost every religion postdate the religion's founding... people believed for decades or (in some cases) centuries without the aid of texts. Whatever is was that Jesus did, there were a ton of eyewitnesses willing to literally die in service of what they believed he was, on their own authority and on the basis of no text.
Generally to the point, yeah, Star Wars is, and always has been, a pro-religion allegory with Buddhist influences but from a Christian point of view. I'm a mainline Christian so I'm pretty down with that, but I understand that some people want really badly to ignore the religious content of the OT movies. I'm really happy that 7 and 3.5 are bringing this back in after a relative lack of such content in the prequels (perhaps because the issue of faith is less pressing in a galaxy where Jedi are dime-a-dozen as in the PT).
For those not paying attention:
4: Luke discovers his father's religion, joins a militant group promoting it, starts blowing up government installations and breaking insurgents out of prison. Han is super skeptical about this religion but gradually grows to respect it, or at least Luke's belief in it. The Rebellion is explicitly pro-Force, while the Empire is soulless and bureaucratic. Their dedication to wiping out this religion is apparent, even thought they someone they believe to be its last living member among them. (Not the slightest hint in this movie that the Emperor is a Jedi/Sith)
5: Whole sequence of Yoda teaching Luke that we are "luminous beings" not "crude matter." In the end, Luke has to make a choice between his more Christian approach to the Force and Yoda/ObiWan's Buddhist version. They want him to be patient, and careful with his feelings. He wants to go out and protect his friends. He's ultimately right: he saves his friends (in a roundabout way) and instead of turning to the dark side, he brings Vader a step closer to the light.
6: Luke again disagrees with the Old Jedi. He wants to save Vader, they think this is reckless. Again, they are counseling him to surpress emotions, where he chooses to rely on positive emotion. He is again ultimately right. The whole final sequence is all about the religious conflict between father and son.
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I just watched the movie, first time that I wasnt hyped for a SW movie because the horrible that EP7 was for me, all in all it was an entertaining movie, not so good, not so bad. Very good CGI,it is the most relevant in the movie, the best character was the robot, very bland acting by all the actors, nobody makes something impressive, the main actress was awful, you cant connect with her, she acted really bad. The story just follows the logic, we all know that at the end the rebels got the plans of the Death Star. the first scene of Vader was really good, the second one was meaningless. I wasnt expecting something really good, so I am not dissapointed, the two most annoying things were: the constant reference to the force (zzzz), and the forced death of some main characters.
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On January 06 2017 04:20 palexhur wrote:
I just watched the movie, first time that I wasnt hyped for a SW movie because the horrible that EP7 was for me, all in all it was an entertaining movie, not so good, not so bad. Very good CGI,it is the most relevant in the movie, the best character was the robot, very bland acting by all the actors, nobody makes something impressive, the main actress was awful, you cant connect with her, she acted really bad. The story just follows the logic, we all know that at the end the rebels got the plans of the Death Star. the first scene of Vader was really good, the second one was meaningless. I wasnt expecting something really good, so I am not dissapointed, the two most annoying things were: the constant reference to the force (zzzz), and the forced death of some main characters.
Are you, by chance, religious?
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On January 06 2017 07:52 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2017 04:20 palexhur wrote:
I just watched the movie, first time that I wasnt hyped for a SW movie because the horrible that EP7 was for me, all in all it was an entertaining movie, not so good, not so bad. Very good CGI,it is the most relevant in the movie, the best character was the robot, very bland acting by all the actors, nobody makes something impressive, the main actress was awful, you cant connect with her, she acted really bad. The story just follows the logic, we all know that at the end the rebels got the plans of the Death Star. the first scene of Vader was really good, the second one was meaningless. I wasnt expecting something really good, so I am not dissapointed, the two most annoying things were: the constant reference to the force (zzzz), and the forced death of some main characters. Are you, by chance, religious?
My family and I are catholics, and we are not everytime at the day saying: Go with God, blessing everyone, and all those things, maybe if you talk with the priest, but not when talking to a regular person.
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On January 06 2017 08:09 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2017 07:52 Gahlo wrote:On January 06 2017 04:20 palexhur wrote:
I just watched the movie, first time that I wasnt hyped for a SW movie because the horrible that EP7 was for me, all in all it was an entertaining movie, not so good, not so bad. Very good CGI,it is the most relevant in the movie, the best character was the robot, very bland acting by all the actors, nobody makes something impressive, the main actress was awful, you cant connect with her, she acted really bad. The story just follows the logic, we all know that at the end the rebels got the plans of the Death Star. the first scene of Vader was really good, the second one was meaningless. I wasnt expecting something really good, so I am not dissapointed, the two most annoying things were: the constant reference to the force (zzzz), and the forced death of some main characters. Are you, by chance, religious? My family and I are catholics, and we are not everytime at the day saying: Go with God, blessing everyone, and all those things, maybe if you talk with the priest, but not when talking to a regular person.
I hate to break it to you, but that's how it gets at times, and that's when people aren't in the middle of a war to save the galaxy.
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On January 06 2017 08:48 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2017 08:09 palexhur wrote:On January 06 2017 07:52 Gahlo wrote:On January 06 2017 04:20 palexhur wrote:
I just watched the movie, first time that I wasnt hyped for a SW movie because the horrible that EP7 was for me, all in all it was an entertaining movie, not so good, not so bad. Very good CGI,it is the most relevant in the movie, the best character was the robot, very bland acting by all the actors, nobody makes something impressive, the main actress was awful, you cant connect with her, she acted really bad. The story just follows the logic, we all know that at the end the rebels got the plans of the Death Star. the first scene of Vader was really good, the second one was meaningless. I wasnt expecting something really good, so I am not dissapointed, the two most annoying things were: the constant reference to the force (zzzz), and the forced death of some main characters. Are you, by chance, religious? My family and I are catholics, and we are not everytime at the day saying: Go with God, blessing everyone, and all those things, maybe if you talk with the priest, but not when talking to a regular person. I hate to break it to you, but that's how it gets at times, and that's when people aren't in the middle of a war to save the galaxy.
I am out of this argument, I didnt like it that aspect of the movie, and that is my opinion. You can have yours, bye.
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On December 22 2016 15:10 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 14:46 kwizach wrote:On December 22 2016 14:40 Yoav wrote:On December 22 2016 14:19 kwizach wrote:On December 22 2016 14:01 Yoav wrote:On December 22 2016 13:00 kwizach wrote:On December 22 2016 04:26 Yoav wrote:
So, a few things:
-In new lore can we communicate and change course in hyperspace freely? When did this happen? Carth communicates with base and orders HK to change course to Edo. Oh so you're talking about SW Rebels, not Rogue One? I agree it should not be possible to send transmissions to normal space or to change course while in hyperspace. No, Rogue One. I just couldn't remember the name of the Rebel soldier haunted by his past and the snarky robot, so I called them by the names of the equivalent KotOR characters. Don't mind me. It happens right after the mission on Jedda... they escape, then decide mid-course to go to the research base, having communicated with the base. Are you sure they're in hyperspace at that point? Blue swirly background. I mean, maybe I am misremembering, but I'm pretty sure they are because I remember thinking it was odd in the theatre. The course correction doesn't necessarily happen in that scene though... it's possible they reached their original jump destination then plotted the new course. Communication I guess could also be like listening to a voice mail? Can't remember if he responded at all.
I just watched it again, and you were right -- they do receive a transmission while in hyperspace. Andor then tells K-2SO to calculate a course to Eadu. We can't tell if they actually changed course while in hyperspace or not, though, since it's possible they came out of hyperspace after that scene and then made a second jump to Eadu.
Overall, I stand by my initial review. Despite its flaws and the fact that it is definitely not on the level of the classics, it's very enjoyable and superior to TFA (and the space battles are definitely out of this world). I was also less bothered by the characters this time around, mostly because I knew what to expect.
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Yeah I've seen it a few more times and liked it more with each viewing. Better than TFA, miles better than the prequels. Or, to put it more generously, best Star Wars movie in my lifetime.
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I think my biggest gripe with the Disney SW movies is that there will be a novel that comes out ahead of it that really fleshes out a lot of things(state of the galaxy for TFA, characters for R1) and feels like people should read it before seeing the movie. Ideally, that shouldn't be the case.
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On January 07 2017 10:16 Yoav wrote:
Yeah I've seen it a few more times and liked it more with each viewing. Better than TFA, miles better than the prequels. Or, to put it more generously, best Star Wars movie in my lifetime.
It's strange how split people are on this. For me it's the worst SW movie, and it's not really close. You can have all the nostalgia-infused cgi you want but in the end I can't enjoy something with such poor character development and a narrative patched together, after re-shoots, in post-production. Jyn's story should've been utterly tragic (mother, father, adopted father/mentor, friends, future boyfriend and herself all died) but it felt like nothing to me (Qui-gon's death had much more impact, in the worst of the prequels). She also lectured a room full of experienced rebels on something she didnt care about a few days ago, in one of the worst written/delivered speeches in recent film history (then she did another on the shuttle).
They even did Vader's character poorly, making a stupid choke pun and whilst his hallway fight was cool, it was completely at odds with how he entered the craft in A New Hope 10 minutes later. He basically just did it cause the filmmakers thought it would look cool, same with the pathetic ATAT walkers. Jyn's disguise outfit and weapons were just there for movie posters too. The opening shot of the movie with that shuttle coming in over the beach looked amazing. Then the mum comes out from hiding and dies like a retard, forgetting she has a daughter and ruining the great cinematography leading up to it.
This continued throughout the movie where I felt the trailer-bait visuals were constantly undermined by awful writing that plodded mechanically from plot point to plot point to get the thing to blow up the thing.
It also didn't matter how many times the dad used 'Stardust', it had 0 emotional weight behind it cause they didnt bother to have even ONE father-daughter scene to develop any sort of relationship beyond the paper thin one that every other character had in common. The strongest relationship of the whole mess might actually have been K2SO and Jyn because it actually grew and developed into something when she gave him the blaster, so I actually felt something when the droid died, unlike for everyone else in the cast. Krennic was also an incredibly lame antagonist who was basically just an ambitious middle class bureaucrat who was not particularly interesting, smart, threatening or evil.
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Character development was certainly the worst part of this movie. The characters were pretty much all throwaway - and they were, in fact, thrown away.
It did do a good job of showcasing Star Wars military equipment and Star Wars warfare, for which it does earn points.
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Eh, it's a war movie. I've seen plenty of war movies and they generally aren't all about the backstory. It's a different genre... you don't need to have the tragedy hammered over your head because of course it's tragic; it's a war. See the Longest Day, Bridge over the River Kwai, Guns of Navarrone, etc. To an extent, LOTR was in the same bucket: you never got a real reason to care about Legolas, Gimli, or even Aragorn. But you realize the stakes of the war and so these are just the people you're following through it.
The characters were generally intriguing and likable. I particularly liked the fact they didn't feel the need to spell out Cassian's backstory. We get it, he lost everything. No need to go Manchester on the Sea on us.
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All the good war movies still develop relationships and character through well-written dialogue and hints at complex/deep backstories. The most recent one I remember seeing was Fury, and the characters were far, far more compelling and complex than anyone in Rogue One. The Rogue One cast didn't act like relateable people, they weren't stressed by tough choices, or scared/nervous of what might happen, they just followed the plot and died like dominoes. You could have literally replaced several of the characters with combat droids, they were that inconsequential, with no semblance of personality as they obediently followed whatever the plot demanded they do.
Saying it's a war movie does not exempt them from developing interesting, believable characters to follow through it. 'War is hell' is a really hard message to sell if there's noone 'real' to care about. You talk like they shouldn't hammer us over the head with stuff, and show don't tell is great, but Cassian's humanity/depth just wasn't shown to me either through his performance or his lines. I'm also baffled that you'd consider Jyn intriguing or likeable, her hollow semblance of a personality created an emotional vacuum at the heart of this film. Cassian's loyalty to her was baffling, and their relationship seemed to happen largely off camera, as did most of the human moments that would've got in the road of more fan-service and pew-pew. Kassian went from a guy with dubious morals to a guy willing to die for the cause, but it was handled poorly, as was Jyn's arc which had all the emotional trajectory of ant ejaculate.
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On January 07 2017 18:42 Yoav wrote:
Eh, it's a war movie. I've seen plenty of war movies and they generally aren't all about the backstory. It's a different genre... you don't need to have the tragedy hammered over your head because of course it's tragic; it's a war. See the Longest Day, Bridge over the River Kwai, Guns of Navarrone, etc. To an extent, LOTR was in the same bucket: you never got a real reason to care about Legolas, Gimli, or even Aragorn. But you realize the stakes of the war and so these are just the people you're following through it.
The characters were generally intriguing and likable. I particularly liked the fact they didn't feel the need to spell out Cassian's backstory. We get it, he lost everything. No need to go Manchester on the Sea on us.
But war movies do focus on character development. Because their principal aim is almost always to highlight the cruelties of war, you have to sympathize with the characters who die futilely/sacrifice themselves for the cause/get rescued. Hell, even inglorious basterds had fuller feeling characters than this. In fact, compare Shosanna's story with Jyn's. It's basically the same, but the former actually feels like a person in the movie, rather than a plot device. And of course Bridge over the River Kwai has Alec Guinness, who is easy to understand and empathize with. R1 does not develop any character to that degree. Or maybe the actors just can't carry their characters to greater heights. But between the two, no character really elicits emotion with their noble sacrifice, except perhaps K2.
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Saw it again for the fiftth and last time in the theaters till it comes out on Blu Ray. Easily my favorite Star Wars movie since ESB. It just gets better each time. Cant wait for April when it comes out on Blu Ray
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On January 09 2017 08:33 Fliparoni wrote:
Saw it again for the fiftth and last time in the theaters till it comes out on Blu Ray. Easily my favorite Star Wars movie since ESB. It just gets better each time. Cant wait for April when it comes out on Blu Ray
Preach. What I loved most about it is it depicted the rebellion, not as this holier than thou angelic organization, but as the down and dirty "do whatever it takes" kind of thing. I really loved that.
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EPT
