EPTStar Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 159
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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On January 01 2016 15:05 On_Slaught wrote: Amen Jibba. Lucas needs to disappear already. Despite being it's creator, he is the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars. Like, everything I've read about the original filming is that the movie was saved in editing and some of the most important idea directions came from guys like Ralph McQuarrie. Lucas has some great ideas, some bad ones, and he can create interesting worlds/set pieces. But he was never the best writer, editor or director on the movies. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I agree that the director is what slaughtered the prequels. The actors are all very high quality ones and would act out a great movie if a great script were to be given to them. But it wasn't. | ||
TheEmulator
28100 Posts
Although to be fair I have issues with the direction of the new films but as I said I liked it overall. I just find the amount of hypocritical shit he said in that interview to be fairly hilarious. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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oBlade
United States6203 Posts
On January 01 2016 04:43 Falling wrote: You haven't been reading what I have been writing, if you think I'm not allowing for any criticisms of the film. If there are camps, I fall in the 'liked it, but saw some issues with it, but not so many that I disliked it, and many things that others had issues with, did not bother me" camp. So my next question, having identified the dejarik board as fan service according to your definition, does that make its inclusion bad? Is the film worse for it's inclusion or is it just there? I'm not convinced it is necessarily fan service as that guesses at intention and to some extent, it's showing that the Falcon continues to work as it always did (and the original dejarik scene was not exactly plot relevant in the first place- more a character/ world building moment.) Is fan service intrinsically bad- that discovering fan service, means you have found a flaw? Or is there good, harmless, and bad (and many more) types of fan service? The chess board just sticks out so much. In ANH it was actually an element in a larger scene, when they had downtime on a space voyage, and they were just hanging out as we got to know the characters and see how they relate to each other. In TFA he just bumps into it by accident. It's like it's reduced to slapstick, it doesn't serve a purpose, and that's obnoxious to see. It might be brief, but that moment really sticks out and looks worse next to some of the other moments (how did they find the "hidden" compartments so easily just to get caught in 5 seconds, those compartments were a huge relief in ANH when you see how the heroes evaded capture) like all this stuff just kept getting thrown in, it's almost as though they built the whole Falcon and then put shots in just to show it off. This doesn't involve mind-reading the filmmakers' intentions, it's just the effect you get watching it. The same things, the gun turrets, the compartments, the chess board, those are only in ANH and TFA. They weren't in episodes 5 or 6, despite the presence of the Falcon there... it's transparent what's going on in TFA. I would rather some of these things had been skipped to give the characters (especially Rey) more time to grow, or grow at a more reasonable pace. On January 01 2016 04:43 Falling wrote: (For not good call backs, I'd point to Sarah Connor's "come with me if you want to live" as it deliberately mimics an iconic scene, serving to remind the viewer of a past epic moment, while not allowing the new film to create its own new epic moment. When did Sarah Connor say that? John Connor said it in the original Terminator, and then Arnold said in to Sarah in T2. T2 is an acclaimed sequel, it didn't need to copy the first movie to be good. The effect of that scene is irony, right, because the audience (and Sarah) both know Arnold tried to kill her last time, and last time John Connor said the line to save her from him. Did she say that in Terminator Genisys or something? Because then I would see your point, but I'm not familiar with that movie. On January 01 2016 04:43 Falling wrote: And the filmmakers did pay very good attention to how things worked before: the Falcon has a square radar, because of course the old one got knocked escaping off the second Death Star. They could've put a round one back on and no one is the wiser (standard replacement part, or filmmaker's inattention to detail- fans interpretation would have depended on their charitableness), but the filmmakers were very deliberate in showing continuity with the Falcon. So it turns out audiences are smart enough to handle things not being exactly the same as they were before, getting beaten over the head with nostalgia. On January 01 2016 14:51 Jibba wrote: On fan service: sure, TFA had it but not as much as the prequels. Did Anakin building C3PO or tying Boba Fett in with the clone army really advance the story in a meaningful way? No, those decisions were entirely fan service. TFA has less fan service than the whole prequel series, you mean? On January 01 2016 14:51 Jibba wrote: He's a total hypocrite, and by all accounts an egomaniac. He's notoriously difficult to work with and was lucky to be surrounded by elite talent in the 70's and 80's, who didn't let his bad writing get in the way of an interesting story. As Harrison Ford said, "George, you can type this shit, but you can't say it!" I'm not going to defend bad writing (looking at the PT right now), but that specific quote from Harrison Ford, I think he was talking about technobabble lines in the OT. Carrie Fisher has said similar things about tongue-twister lines. On January 01 2016 15:18 TheEmulator wrote: lol at the "I don't like the direction of the new star wars" quote from Lucas. GUESS WHAT LUCAS! Literally no one liked the direction of your fucking prequel bullshit either! Although to be fair I have issues with the direction of the new films but as I said I liked it overall. I just find the amount of hypocritical shit he said in that interview to be fairly hilarious. It's kind of like when Gollum lost the ring and could be himself again, right? He's not burdened now. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On January 01 2016 15:45 Plansix wrote: The are terribly acted movies with CGI for evil. I'll give you point number 1. Bad acting is a star wars staple lol I thought the CGI was pretty good. It looked natural and real. And obvious but it always is obvious. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
And then when it comes to PT of course nobody is there to stop him anymore so he just went in with all his 'revenge' of putting in whatever he wanted. It was supposed to be titled as 'jar jar bink and friends' adventure' or something like that ....... So of course he would defend his PT lol. OT basically are not his work after being edited and criticised/made changeds by his team back then, when he was a giant noob director. Well, he still is, just look at every work he has done (ie nothing I can think of). Not surprised that he is half insane at this stage because he is carrying the fame from OT and disapproved by the world for his PT. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 01 2016 15:53 Orcasgt24 wrote: I'll give you point number 1. Bad acting is a star wars staple lol I thought the CGI was pretty good. It looked natural and real. And obvious but it always is obvious. It has aged poorly. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On January 01 2016 15:31 Orcasgt24 wrote: I don't understand the unfiltered hate the prequels get. They are fine movies that tell an above average quality story. Other than the weird Padme/Anakin thing in E1 and awkwardness of them in E2 and E3 I thought they were great. Awesome fights and action too I can't say I hate them. Hate would mean it brought some emotion out of me. Really, the prequels were just overbearingly boring. Like eye-gougingly boring. The story is there, yeah. But the plot is so slow and honestly so poorly told that reading a wiki entry and then watching the big fights that always come at the end of the movie is more entertaining and less of a waste of money than actually seeing the movies. | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
The world of the prequels, though, is really inventive and intricate once you give it a chance. I just read the novel version of Revenge of the Sith, and it completely rescues it (I don't know if you'll find many people who hated that movie as much as I did); I was pretty entranced. Same with the better episodes of The Clone Wars. Also, a big part of the original appeal of Star Wars was the exotic-ness, rather than a frankly unoriginal hero's journey plot combined with almost direct copying of The Hidden Fortress. The bar filled with crazy aliens, lightsabers, the planet that just casually has two suns, stuff like that; that's what made it, along with good editing and catchy dialouge. I really do see in retrospect how that spirit was brought to the prequels too--they made an effort to show us new things in the world, they were just terribly made movies. Then there's The Force Awakens. The creativity and originality was dialed so far back in the interest of making a streamlined movie palatable to everyone that I really do feel like it lacked the spirit of the series. Of course, it still succeeded as a teaser for me because I now want to see the new characters get to do more cause they are very well written. But as a whole its world and story felt slapped together, with absolutely nothing new, and I can't escape the nagging feeling that that's how Disney wants it--to be as inoffensive to as much of the public as it can. It's a completely valid criticism, and just saying, "well you ruined the prequels" isn't a response to the point. If Episode 8 doesn't deliver on this promise though, I'll probably start looking at the new ones as prequel level disasters. I am optimistic-ish though. Also at this point, one of the most interesting things about Star Wars as a whole is that it's developed into maybe the biggest, most intricate fictional world out there, with such an extensive list of contributors and diverse stories (even when you account for moving so much of it into "Legends") that to put such sloppy work into that part of the new feature film is irking. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
TFA established the world of the sequel trilogy, and I think it did a fine job on that. I hope 8 and 9 build on it, but I really don't think it's fair to think of it as a "prequel level disaster" by any means. | ||
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On January 01 2016 16:36 ZapRoffo wrote: At the essence of his point though, I agree with Lucas here. The prequels suck because the filmmaking craft that he took too much control of was woeful, and there were some big story missteps (e.g. Jar Jar is a main character, Padme dies of a broken heart), but I don't think that's what he's really talking about. The world of the prequels, though, is really inventive and intricate once you give it a chance. I just read the novel version of Revenge of the Sith, and it completely rescues it (I don't know if you'll find many people who hated that movie as much as I did); I was pretty entranced. Same with the better episodes of The Clone Wars. Also, a big part of the original appeal of Star Wars was the exotic-ness, rather than a frankly unoriginal hero's journey plot combined with almost direct copying of The Hidden Fortress. The bar filled with crazy aliens, lightsabers, the planet that just casually has two suns, stuff like that; that's what made it, along with good editing and catchy dialouge. I really do see in retrospect how that spirit was brought to the prequels too--they made an effort to show us new things in the world, they were just terribly made movies. Then there's The Force Awakens. The creativity and originality was dialed so far back in the interest of making a streamlined movie palatable to everyone that I really do feel like it lacked the spirit of the series. Of course, it still succeeded as a teaser for me because I now want to see the new characters get to do more cause they are very well written. But as a whole its world and story felt slapped together, with absolutely nothing new, and I can't escape the nagging feeling that that's how Disney wants it--to be as inoffensive to as much of the public as it can. It's a completely valid criticism, and just saying, "well you ruined the prequels" isn't a response to the point. If Episode 8 doesn't deliver on this promise though, I'll probably start looking at the new ones as prequel level disasters. I am optimistic-ish though. Also at this point, one of the most interesting things about Star Wars as a whole is that it's developed into maybe the biggest, most intricate fictional world out there, with such an extensive list of contributors and diverse stories (even when you account for moving so much of it into "Legends") that to put such sloppy work into that part of the new feature film is irking. That's exactly why I said should I treat it as a fan made movie with a huge budget because you can't expect new/original idea from a 'fan made' medium. And you hit the spot on why do I feel like I miss George lucas's quirky/odd magical touch there for SW7. | ||
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Falling
Canada11529 Posts
Honestly, I put it as just harmless. It didn't stand out that much to me, and I certainly don't see what makes it so bad. Did she say that in Terminator Genisys or something? Because then I would see your point, but I'm not familiar with that movie. Yes, it was in Terminator Genesys- a complete reversal of the original scene. I didn't mind the actual situational reversal, but using the direct quote felt like I was getting hit over the head with what was happening. Callbacks to minor events, I feel are harmless. Direct imitations of iconic scenes feels less good. On January 01 2016 15:31 Orcasgt24 wrote: I don't understand the unfiltered hate the prequels get. They are fine movies that tell an above average quality story. Other than the weird Padme/Anakin thing in E1 and awkwardness of them in E2 and E3 I thought they were great. Awesome fights and action too Ignoring acting quality, there are enormous story structure problems. Episode II makes less and less sense the more I think about it, unless the Jedi are Lawful Stupid. In addition losing the assassination plot for Anakin and Padme just kills the pacing, leaving them nothing to do except a Lucas romance IN SPACE. I don't hate them, but I think they are enormously flawed and not particularly well told stories, though we are taken to all sorts of new places. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
With the pacing this new movie had, if you have an actually new and interesting story, the audience will be confused. This rehashed story with 0 depth was mandatory to allow the fast pace and lack of dialogue that we saw. Economy of motion is one thing, where every scene needs to hammer down a point, and in a sense it is an art. But I like my movies to meander along a bit. I agree Lucas had years to think out an elegant plot. But that sometimes is the problem. When you need to connect A to B and go through C, D and E, and you redo the same problem over and over, you risk getting into a mess. You lose elegance and in your mind it all becomes blurred. Even with Tolkien this is true. But even if you find the right way to close all plotholes, preemt all the fan's need for answers, you can't do it if you can't meander along every once in a while. The fact that the only times TFA slowed down was to make a nod to old Star Wars. that's why people are annoyed by it. I predict that once this trilogy is finished, we will know what George Lucas added and is gone now. And we will get to be more aware of the positive qualities of the prequels, as deeply flawed and silly they are. Let's not forget how bad OT sometimes was, especially Return of the Jedi. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
There is this contradiction in the world-building. Jedi aren't supposed to have relationships. I assume this means they also don't have children, I assume. I mean, forcing their followers to reproduce to produce force-sensitives, that's a bit odd. On the other side, apparently force sensitivity is very strong genetic trait. Padme's children are hidden because they have an unique potential to be force users. Even Darth Vader says this, when he implies that if Luke won't become his Sith apprentice, maybe his sister was. Now there you have a huge debate if Darth Vader ever realized who Leia was. But it seems safe to assume he knew that whoever Luke's sister was, she currently had no skills in using the force. In fact, we never see Leia show she actually has the potential genes should grant her, even up to TFA. It apparently is guaranteed that Leia can actually become at least a weak Jedi. Of course, we have Ben Solo, which again confirms the importance of genes. That said, if all force-users stop reproducing, they deliberately select against the genes that allow for the body's cells to be in a symbiotic relationship with midichlorians. Sorry guys, that's canon and I did some research (actual research in the lab, lol) myself into how certain plant genes allow for rhizobia bacteria to live in their roots (N2 fixation). So because of my background in molecular biology I can't help but think that way. At least in Dune, they had a century-long lasting breeding program to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. That made sense. That being said, Luke has been training new Jedi. So it is not needed to be a Skywalker to be force sensitive. Why can't a padawan candidate be someone in whose family there never has been any Jedi? That put together with Jedi not supposed to have children, at least Ben Kenobi knew that. In fact, it is exactly romantic love that leads to Anakin's downfall (or at least that's how George Lucas wanted to tell the story). Would be strange for him to fall in love with a woman and have a child. Same with Luke. He should have learned from either Ben or Yoda the old Jedi rulebook. I mean, that was super-important to them; the only way to fight off the dark side. Lawful stupid? Maybe. But the way Lucas want's to tell the story, the only way to protect your jedi against the dark side is to be lawful stupid. Romantic love and lust are (were) both paths to the dark side. Now maybe Disney//JJ Abrams/whoever is writing will retcon this, as obviously audiences don't really connect well with the Jedi code. They find it hard to accept the silliness of the rigid thinking of the good guys. I think it is kind of realistic to put criteria on being good most people can't meet because in reality let's face it. Give enough power to the average Joe, and he will be just as horrible of a dictator as anyone else. Take you or your child, have their genes been born as the child of Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il or Gaddafi, and he will be just as crazy as their actual real world sons. Being good is something almost no one can do, yet in fiction we struggle to explain why people are evil. I guess that's part of the problem with back&white, without grey. But, considering JJ Abrams went out of his way in Star Trek 9 that all major male characters were definitely not gay (or asexual, or indifferent), I expect it to be retconned. Movies have to be supercharged, including being supercharged sexually. You can't have celibates as action heroes or examples of superior masculinity. So unless Obi Wan or Luke broke the Jedi code and kept mistresses, fucked around, they don't have offspring period. Then there's Darth Vader. Were his parts still functional after his 'accident'? If so, he could have had dozens of girls, as he was able to do whatever he wanted. Also, given her accent, Rey can't have been brought up by Luke or Leia. Unless of course, JJ Abrams starts to ignore accents. I know Lucas didn't. Everything logical seems to indicate that she is someone with parents that have no history in the Star Wars universe so far, but that she has been trained by Luke, then mindwiped and now her memory is returning. This is also the only way to make her abilities as a pilot, as an engineer and as a force user believable. You don't do Jedi mind tricks or yank a light saber from the telekinetic grip of a Sith as your first ever attempt at force usage. She must be recalling that what she knew how to do before. Granted, only force users having the reflexes to learn how to fight with a light saber, that's retconned. It used to be that people thought you had to channel the force to power on the lightsaber, until Han used it in Ep IV. But it has always been true that anyone not a force user trying to use a light saber would be completely dangerous to themselves. But that's no longer true as of this movie, as a stormtrooper with 0 combat experience, you know one of those guys Jedi eat for breakfast, can defend himself with one. Of course, because it makes sense, it will not be that way in Ep. VIII. I know that. For sure Ep VIII will have new things that are so stupid/off base, no one on the internets is calling it. Also, if CP3O and Rey ever met, shouldn't she know by now already who he is and who her parents are/were? That guy doesn't know when to shut up. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19220 Posts
C3PO also has his memory erased every 12 days or so, and it's been proven that nobody he interacts with ever remembers him either (Owen owned him for a decade according to PT and then didn't know anything about him in OT). | ||
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