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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 18 2012 07:23 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 18:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 17 2012 18:17 moopie wrote:On April 17 2012 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
I agree that Tywin is perfectly cast, but honestly, why is he despicable? I really liked him in the books and in the series. Name one evil or unnatural deed he has done? He's a strong handed Machiavellian leader. Ummm... - dislikes Tyrion because he is a dwarf, and blames him for the death of Joanna. - lied to his son about the wife he married and said she was a whore so that they would split up (and made his other son an accomplice). - had his father's mistress stripped naked and paraded her in the streets of Lannisport. - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. - orchestrated the Red Wedding (breaking sacred guest rights). - ordered his bannerman Gregor Clegane to commit all sorts of evil shit, like burning, raping and pillaging in the Riverlands (first to draw out Eddard, who instead sent Beric, and then during the war of the 5 kings). - slept with his son's mistress after all the bullshit he put him through, and let her wear the necklace of the hand, making him just about the biggest hypocrite in the book. (unless Varys set up that entire deal which is debatable). 1. Completly normal, for a proud and influential man like him, having a dwarf son and losing his beloved wife is reasonable incentive to dislike him 2. well yes, that s kinda fucked up, true, not 100% unreasonable since u dont want one of ur family to be married to a peasant. 3. Completly reasonable, his father was a weak lord and his mistress was stealing and using his mother's cloths and jewelry. He had the right idea to show that times have changed (but still, this isnt known in the series so shouldnt count when it comes down to despicable characters being nominated) 4. He did not orchestrate it, i'm not sure about whose idea it was, maybe his, but still, he got rid of a dangerous enemy the easy way, and he did not brake any guest rights (that s all on the Freys), so as far as the Red Wddig goes, it's a good move and no desacration on his part. 5. Completly normal warfare tactics6. Yes, that was so fucked up and out of his character, i kinda forgot about it, i favor the idea of Varrys setting it up to make sure Tyrion rids him of Tywinn. If not, than yes, that's very despicable, true. So what the Germans did in Russia in ww2 (just as an example) are completely normal warfare tactics? And before you argue "well its normal in the GoT world, if not in our world": I am absolutely sure that the Starks, Renly or even Stannis did not go that far in the very same war. Only the Greyjoys and the Boltons did similar stuff, and they are just as criminal. Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 07:21 happyness wrote:Uh, you skipped - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. Which is by far the worst thing he's done and shows just how heartless he is. No, all the pillaging, raping and killing of thousands in the riverlands, people that were totally innocent peasants that had no stake in this whatsoever, is by far a worse crime.
The Starks did go as far. In one of Jaime's chapters (after he's been released) he and Brienne pass by a inn where there are dozens of women strung up for "laying with lions." There are several more examples of pillaging by the Starks, but this one is the most evident one I can remember.
War sucks; there are no real innocents in it (even in WWII by your example), some people are just more cruel.
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On April 18 2012 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 07:23 Redox wrote:On April 17 2012 18:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 17 2012 18:17 moopie wrote:On April 17 2012 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
I agree that Tywin is perfectly cast, but honestly, why is he despicable? I really liked him in the books and in the series. Name one evil or unnatural deed he has done? He's a strong handed Machiavellian leader. Ummm... - dislikes Tyrion because he is a dwarf, and blames him for the death of Joanna. - lied to his son about the wife he married and said she was a whore so that they would split up (and made his other son an accomplice). - had his father's mistress stripped naked and paraded her in the streets of Lannisport. - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. - orchestrated the Red Wedding (breaking sacred guest rights). - ordered his bannerman Gregor Clegane to commit all sorts of evil shit, like burning, raping and pillaging in the Riverlands (first to draw out Eddard, who instead sent Beric, and then during the war of the 5 kings). - slept with his son's mistress after all the bullshit he put him through, and let her wear the necklace of the hand, making him just about the biggest hypocrite in the book. (unless Varys set up that entire deal which is debatable). 1. Completly normal, for a proud and influential man like him, having a dwarf son and losing his beloved wife is reasonable incentive to dislike him 2. well yes, that s kinda fucked up, true, not 100% unreasonable since u dont want one of ur family to be married to a peasant. 3. Completly reasonable, his father was a weak lord and his mistress was stealing and using his mother's cloths and jewelry. He had the right idea to show that times have changed (but still, this isnt known in the series so shouldnt count when it comes down to despicable characters being nominated) 4. He did not orchestrate it, i'm not sure about whose idea it was, maybe his, but still, he got rid of a dangerous enemy the easy way, and he did not brake any guest rights (that s all on the Freys), so as far as the Red Wddig goes, it's a good move and no desacration on his part. 5. Completly normal warfare tactics6. Yes, that was so fucked up and out of his character, i kinda forgot about it, i favor the idea of Varrys setting it up to make sure Tyrion rids him of Tywinn. If not, than yes, that's very despicable, true. So what the Germans did in Russia in ww2 (just as an example) are completely normal warfare tactics? And before you argue "well its normal in the GoT world, if not in our world": I am absolutely sure that the Starks, Renly or even Stannis did not go that far in the very same war. Only the Greyjoys and the Boltons did similar stuff, and they are just as criminal. On April 18 2012 07:21 happyness wrote:Uh, you skipped - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. Which is by far the worst thing he's done and shows just how heartless he is. No, all the pillaging, raping and killing of thousands in the riverlands, people that were totally innocent peasants that had no stake in this whatsoever, is by far a worse crime. The Starks did go as far. In one of Jaime's chapters (after he's been released) he and Brienne pass by a inn where there are dozens of women strung up for "laying with lions." There are several more examples of pillaging by the Starks, but this one is the most evident one I can remember. War sucks; there are no real innocents in it (even in WWII by your example), some people are just more cruel.
That was most likely done by the Boltons that I already mentioned. That was also speculated by the Lannister companion of Brienne as the Starks normally dont do such stuff.
And for sure it was never ordered by Robb Stark in contrast to the cruelties that were explicitly ordered by Tywin Lannister. I dont really think we have to argue about the fact that these 2 have a different idea about the general conduct in war.
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On April 18 2012 08:57 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 07:23 Redox wrote:On April 17 2012 18:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 17 2012 18:17 moopie wrote:On April 17 2012 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
I agree that Tywin is perfectly cast, but honestly, why is he despicable? I really liked him in the books and in the series. Name one evil or unnatural deed he has done? He's a strong handed Machiavellian leader. Ummm... - dislikes Tyrion because he is a dwarf, and blames him for the death of Joanna. - lied to his son about the wife he married and said she was a whore so that they would split up (and made his other son an accomplice). - had his father's mistress stripped naked and paraded her in the streets of Lannisport. - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. - orchestrated the Red Wedding (breaking sacred guest rights). - ordered his bannerman Gregor Clegane to commit all sorts of evil shit, like burning, raping and pillaging in the Riverlands (first to draw out Eddard, who instead sent Beric, and then during the war of the 5 kings). - slept with his son's mistress after all the bullshit he put him through, and let her wear the necklace of the hand, making him just about the biggest hypocrite in the book. (unless Varys set up that entire deal which is debatable). 1. Completly normal, for a proud and influential man like him, having a dwarf son and losing his beloved wife is reasonable incentive to dislike him 2. well yes, that s kinda fucked up, true, not 100% unreasonable since u dont want one of ur family to be married to a peasant. 3. Completly reasonable, his father was a weak lord and his mistress was stealing and using his mother's cloths and jewelry. He had the right idea to show that times have changed (but still, this isnt known in the series so shouldnt count when it comes down to despicable characters being nominated) 4. He did not orchestrate it, i'm not sure about whose idea it was, maybe his, but still, he got rid of a dangerous enemy the easy way, and he did not brake any guest rights (that s all on the Freys), so as far as the Red Wddig goes, it's a good move and no desacration on his part. 5. Completly normal warfare tactics6. Yes, that was so fucked up and out of his character, i kinda forgot about it, i favor the idea of Varrys setting it up to make sure Tyrion rids him of Tywinn. If not, than yes, that's very despicable, true. So what the Germans did in Russia in ww2 (just as an example) are completely normal warfare tactics? And before you argue "well its normal in the GoT world, if not in our world": I am absolutely sure that the Starks, Renly or even Stannis did not go that far in the very same war. Only the Greyjoys and the Boltons did similar stuff, and they are just as criminal. On April 18 2012 07:21 happyness wrote:Uh, you skipped - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. Which is by far the worst thing he's done and shows just how heartless he is. No, all the pillaging, raping and killing of thousands in the riverlands, people that were totally innocent peasants that had no stake in this whatsoever, is by far a worse crime. The Starks did go as far. In one of Jaime's chapters (after he's been released) he and Brienne pass by a inn where there are dozens of women strung up for "laying with lions." There are several more examples of pillaging by the Starks, but this one is the most evident one I can remember. War sucks; there are no real innocents in it (even in WWII by your example), some people are just more cruel. That was most likely done by the Boltons that I already mentioned. That was also speculated by the Lannister companion of Brienne as the Starks normally dont do such stuff. And for sure it was never ordered by Robb Stark in contrast to the cruelties that were explicitly ordered by Tywin Lannister. I dont really think we have to argue about the fact that these 2 have a different idea about the general conduct in war.
It wasn't speculated by anybody, there was a sign next to the corpses saying "they lay with lions." And even if he didn't specifically order it he certainly didn't condemn or stop it. Remember we're talking about the guy who was willing to put his entire army at risk just for a girl.
Yeah Robb isn't as bad as tywin, but that doesn't mean he's perfect. The Starks are just as grey as everyone else.
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On April 18 2012 09:27 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:57 Redox wrote:On April 18 2012 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:On April 18 2012 07:23 Redox wrote:On April 17 2012 18:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 17 2012 18:17 moopie wrote:On April 17 2012 18:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
I agree that Tywin is perfectly cast, but honestly, why is he despicable? I really liked him in the books and in the series. Name one evil or unnatural deed he has done? He's a strong handed Machiavellian leader. Ummm... - dislikes Tyrion because he is a dwarf, and blames him for the death of Joanna. - lied to his son about the wife he married and said she was a whore so that they would split up (and made his other son an accomplice). - had his father's mistress stripped naked and paraded her in the streets of Lannisport. - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. - orchestrated the Red Wedding (breaking sacred guest rights). - ordered his bannerman Gregor Clegane to commit all sorts of evil shit, like burning, raping and pillaging in the Riverlands (first to draw out Eddard, who instead sent Beric, and then during the war of the 5 kings). - slept with his son's mistress after all the bullshit he put him through, and let her wear the necklace of the hand, making him just about the biggest hypocrite in the book. (unless Varys set up that entire deal which is debatable). 1. Completly normal, for a proud and influential man like him, having a dwarf son and losing his beloved wife is reasonable incentive to dislike him 2. well yes, that s kinda fucked up, true, not 100% unreasonable since u dont want one of ur family to be married to a peasant. 3. Completly reasonable, his father was a weak lord and his mistress was stealing and using his mother's cloths and jewelry. He had the right idea to show that times have changed (but still, this isnt known in the series so shouldnt count when it comes down to despicable characters being nominated) 4. He did not orchestrate it, i'm not sure about whose idea it was, maybe his, but still, he got rid of a dangerous enemy the easy way, and he did not brake any guest rights (that s all on the Freys), so as far as the Red Wddig goes, it's a good move and no desacration on his part. 5. Completly normal warfare tactics6. Yes, that was so fucked up and out of his character, i kinda forgot about it, i favor the idea of Varrys setting it up to make sure Tyrion rids him of Tywinn. If not, than yes, that's very despicable, true. So what the Germans did in Russia in ww2 (just as an example) are completely normal warfare tactics? And before you argue "well its normal in the GoT world, if not in our world": I am absolutely sure that the Starks, Renly or even Stannis did not go that far in the very same war. Only the Greyjoys and the Boltons did similar stuff, and they are just as criminal. On April 18 2012 07:21 happyness wrote:Uh, you skipped - ordered the death of Rhaegar's wife and children and then presented their corpses as gifts to Robert. Which is by far the worst thing he's done and shows just how heartless he is. No, all the pillaging, raping and killing of thousands in the riverlands, people that were totally innocent peasants that had no stake in this whatsoever, is by far a worse crime. The Starks did go as far. In one of Jaime's chapters (after he's been released) he and Brienne pass by a inn where there are dozens of women strung up for "laying with lions." There are several more examples of pillaging by the Starks, but this one is the most evident one I can remember. War sucks; there are no real innocents in it (even in WWII by your example), some people are just more cruel. That was most likely done by the Boltons that I already mentioned. That was also speculated by the Lannister companion of Brienne as the Starks normally dont do such stuff. And for sure it was never ordered by Robb Stark in contrast to the cruelties that were explicitly ordered by Tywin Lannister. I dont really think we have to argue about the fact that these 2 have a different idea about the general conduct in war. It wasn't speculated by anybody, there was a sign next to the corpses saying "they lay with lions." And even if he didn't specifically order it he certainly didn't condemn or stop it. Remember we're talking about the guy who was willing to put his entire army at risk just for a girl. Yeah Robb isn't as bad as tywin, but that doesn't mean he's perfect. The Starks are just as grey as everyone else.
Oh well, guess I have to quote from the book then:
“It might be Marq Piper’s work,” said Ser Cleos. “Or that wisp o’ the wood Beric Dondarrion, though I’d heard he kills only soldiers. Perhaps a band of Roose Bolton’s northmen?”
“Bolton was defeated by my father on the Green Fork.”
“But not broken,” said Ser Cleos. “He came south again when Lord Tywin marched against the fords. The word at Riverrun was that he’d taken Harrenhal from Ser Amory Lorch.”
Jaime liked the sound of that not at all. “Brienne,” he said, granting her the courtesy of the name in the hopes that she might listen, “if Lord Bolton holds Harrenhal, both the Trident and the kingsroad are likely watched.”
And indeed Bolton did hold Harrenhal at that time which was near the place where that happened. And we know he was not the nicest fella and did similar stuff all the time.
I never said that there were only nice guys fighting with the Starks, and only evil ones with the Lannisters. Of course there were crimes on both sides. But bad stuff happening during war is still different from the explicit order to murder thousands of innocent woman and children. This is indeed somewhat like the comparison of nazi germany vs allies in ww2. Only that here the killings were not done out of hate but with cold reasoning to further personal goals. So I would rather compare Tywin to Stalin than to Hitler. Tywins cruelties towards his own family are also similar to Stalin.
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
I actually believe the Blackfish is not such an important character. He jumped of the castle walls into the river with bowmen shooting at him. Wouldn't it be martinesque is we just never hear from him again, while keeping our hopes and expectations high?
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On April 18 2012 15:37 SF-Fork wrote:
I actually believe the Blackfish is not such an important character. He jumped of the castle walls into the river with bowmen shooting at him. Wouldn't it be martinesque is we just never hear from him again, while keeping our hopes and expectations high?
Sooooo Benjen Stark? =P
You're right, it could be very martin-esque to just have the Blackfish turn up on shore drowned. I don't think he's "important", but I do think he'll reappear. Even if he doesn't, I think Edmund Tully, though "captive" may have grown a pair post Red Wedding.
Regardless, I wonder how the Riverlands will fare in the future. Are they something to factor into Littlefingers plans? Will they side again with the north?
Also I have a question, does anyone else think that perhaps the ultimate plan by George Martin is to have a representative of each major house (the 7 kingdoms) unite at the end to return the lands to peace? I keep trying to think "If you could have a champion/liegelord to represent each kingdom at the end for unity of the lands, who will they be?".
I mean, it feels like people like Sansa and Theon are set up to be the new representatives for a house which may promote unity. I wonder if there is to be a representative for all?
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In my view, being evil means doing despicable deeds without necessary reasons or just for the sake of it.
Other example, the Boltons:
Roose Bolton is similar to Tywinn in many ways, he's worse probably since he switched sides when things started to look bad. But one has to ask, which is more evil, to be vanquished for the right cause, with your family and men and other subjects, or gain a profit by betrayal and saving the lifes of your subjects and furthering your house's agenda. No question about it, the honorable thing was to stay true to Robb, or the very least not turn swords, however i don't believe it's evil, it's just dishonorable but pragmatic.
Now let's take his son, Ramsey, he did not need to torture and kill his wife (Lady Oakheart i think?) he already gained the lands and the woman would have died soon anyways. He doesnt need to torture his servants, doesnt need to hunt women naked trough the woods, he does these things because he enjoys it, and while it has a pragmatic value (more lands, more fear) it's not only dishonarable it's evil.
Back to the Lannisters, Tywinn would never have turned against the crown, he was prepared to suffer the consequances if he lost, he did anything not to. Yes, his relationshid with Tyrion make him "evil" but other than that, every evil deed has a good purpose. The murder of Elia's children, in a conversation with Tyrion in book 3 he says, it was needed to be done, because they came late to the war and had to present something to proove that they wont change back their alliance if opportunity comes, since the Targareyans would never forgive such an act. He even said, he never ment for Elia to die, that was Clegane's work. There's no suggestion he had any joy of ordering the murder of children, but he knew it has to be done.
It would be a lot easier to make a case the Joff or Cercei are evil, though counter arguments can be brought for Cercei at least, (until book 4 at least she appears like a mother and member of a great house who would do anything for her children and furrthering the Lannister agenda, well in book 4 she turns out not to care that much about her remaining children and less about Lannisters, only wants to grab the power).
And yes, what Germans did in USSR during WW2 is normal warfare, pillaging, foreging, rape, executions, forced labour, starving of a town/city were since forever part of wars (not of every war, but many), the difference in WW2 was that it was on such a mass scale and more mediatizied than anything before it.
If you want evil from the WW2 period, you have to look into the internal policies of USSR and Germany namely Gulags and Concentration camps, while those also served a pragmatic purpose they went way beyound the line of being reasonable.
Damn i wrote a lot, sorry
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Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king
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On April 18 2012 17:23 D10 wrote:
Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king
Lannisters weren't involved in the war, he decieved Aerys to think his host came to defend KL, they never fought the rebels, treason, yes, but it wasnt changing sides when things looked sour, like Bolton
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On April 18 2012 16:51 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 15:37 SF-Fork wrote:
I actually believe the Blackfish is not such an important character. He jumped of the castle walls into the river with bowmen shooting at him. Wouldn't it be martinesque is we just never hear from him again, while keeping our hopes and expectations high? Also I have a question, does anyone else think that perhaps the ultimate plan by George Martin is to have a representative of each major house (the 7 kingdoms) unite at the end to return the lands to peace? I keep trying to think "If you could have a champion/liegelord to represent each kingdom at the end for unity of the lands, who will they be?". I mean, it feels like people like Sansa and Theon are set up to be the new representatives for a house which may promote unity. I wonder if there is to be a representative for all?
That's really cool. I like that idea.
It's too warm and cozy and wrapped in too pretty a bow, but I like it.
I'd say Jamie would be the Lannister. He seems to be doing a transformation to an honorable man. Tyrion is too obvious. Besides, whatever happens to him, I don't think he'll have a good ending. He always gets shit on.
I guess the closest thing we have to a Baratheon is Gendry. Other than Stannis, who has no chance of surviving another 200 pages.
I guess The Blackfish would fit in here? Or maybe Edmure?
Meh, I'm done with my random speculations.
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On April 18 2012 17:40 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:23 D10 wrote:
Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king Lannisters weren't involved in the war, he decieved Aerys to think his host came to defend KL, they never fought the rebels, treason, yes, but it wasnt changing sides when things looked sour, like Bolton
Well, that can be debated. He made the impression that he was going to enter the city to help defend it, then when Aerys let him in he sacked it and was responsible for the killings and rapes of hundreds of people (completely unnecessary since the city was already taken). Then he killed Aerys' family.
He definitely changed sides as he had declared his support for Aerys when approaching the city. He was also extremely opportunistic in not declaring a side until the war was decided.
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On April 18 2012 17:49 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:40 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 18 2012 17:23 D10 wrote:
Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king Lannisters weren't involved in the war, he decieved Aerys to think his host came to defend KL, they never fought the rebels, treason, yes, but it wasnt changing sides when things looked sour, like Bolton Well, that can be debated. He made the impression that he was going to enter the city to help defend it, then when Aerys let him in he sacked it and was responsible for the killings and rapes of hundreds of people (completely unnecessary since the city was already taken). Then he killed Aerys' family. He definitely changed sides as he had declared his support for Aerys when approaching the city. He was also extremely opportunistic in not declaring a side until the war was decided.
well, a matter of perspective i guess, so Jon Snow changed sides too when he joined the wildlings with the clear intentions to betray them asap.
Very oppotunistic and dishonarable of Tywinn for sure, never debated that.
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On April 18 2012 17:49 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:40 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 18 2012 17:23 D10 wrote:
Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king Lannisters weren't involved in the war, he decieved Aerys to think his host came to defend KL, they never fought the rebels, treason, yes, but it wasnt changing sides when things looked sour, like Bolton Well, that can be debated. He made the impression that he was going to enter the city to help defend it, then when Aerys let him in he sacked it and was responsible for the killings and rapes of hundreds of people (completely unnecessary since the city was already taken). Then he killed Aerys' family. He definitely changed sides as he had declared his support for Aerys when approaching the city. He was also extremely opportunistic in not declaring a side until the war was decided.
Yup, Tywin did betray Aerys when he saw that Aerys' cause was done and he will benefit from siding with Robert (which he did). Like I said before, there are many parallels between Roose and Tywin and they would both fall into the lawful evil catagory. Ramsey and Gregor Clegane would be chaotic evil, they just get off on the violence and torture. Of course that makes them "more evil" than Roose and Tywin but it doesn't absolve Roose and Tywin of their sins. Tywin orders Gregor to do his dirty work and Roose manipulates Ramsey to do his own. It all depends on how you view and define evil. The puppet masters are still responsible even if they don't pull the trigger themselves.
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Using the D&D 9 alignments doesnt work on real people
You need to use an advantages/disadvantages system like GURPS.
Heres Tyrion how I view
Tyrion "The Imp" Lannister (in gurps all stats start at 10 and you buy or sell them)
ST 8 [-20]
DX 10 [0]
IQ 14 [80]
HT 10 [0]
Secondary Characteristics
Will 11 [-15]
Social Traits:
CF: Westeros [0]
TL: 3 [0]
Languages:
Westerosi (Native/Native) [0]
Braavosi (Accented/Literate) [4]
Lyseni (Accented/Literate) [2]
All other free city tongues (Broken/Semi Literate) [0]
Valaryian (None/Literate) [2]
Advantages:
Smooth Operator +3 [45]
Status 2 [5]
Wealth: Very Wealthy [30]
Independent Income 15 [15]
Hard to Kill +2 [4]
Legal Immunity; Noble [10]
Serendipity 1 [15]
Patron: Tywin Lannister on a 9 or less (Minimal Intervention-50%) [8]
Disadvantages:
Odiou Personal Habit: Sleeps with whores -1 [-5]
Dwarfism [-15]
Ugly [-8]
Hunchback [-10]
Impulsiveness (verbal only -30%) (9) [-10]
Overconfidence (12) [-5]
Social Stigma; Disowned (should be Heir to Casterly Rock but is not) [-5]
Duty to House Lannister on a 9 or less [-5]
Quirk: Likes to Gamble [-1]
Quirk: Never bets against his family [-1]
Quirk: Broad-Minded (about gender, nationality and class not race/species) [-1]
Quirk: Sarcastic [-1]
Quirk: Skeptical about magic [-1]
Skills:
Administration-13 [1]
Area Knowledge (Westeros)-14 [1]
Current Affairs/TL3 (Regional; Westeros )-14 [1]
Detect Lies*-15 [1]
Diplomacy*-16 [2]
Fast-Talk*-16 [2]
Finance-12 [1]
Gambling-13 [1]
Heraldry-15 [4]
History (Westeros)-14 [4]
Leadership*-16 [1]
Politics*-17 [2]
Public Speaking*-16 [1]
Research/TL3-14 [2]
Riding-11 [4]
Savior-Faire (High Society)*-17 [1]
Theology (The Seven)-12 [1]
Writing-13 [1]
*Includes +3 from Smooth Operator
A note on languages: This assumes that Free City languages default to each other at one level of comprehesion less. Tyrion's languages are utter guesswork on my part.
Hard to Kill is based on his survival at the battle of the Blackwater, and Serendipity is from the numerous coincidences that saved his life. He might also have Destiny (but not being GRRM I couldn't say).
This is Tyrion as he appears in the beginning of Game of Thrones. Later he should gain an Ally Group (The Clans of the Mountains of the Moon) and possibly two Allies (Bronn and Podrick Payn unless they're PCs), a Dependent/Secret Enemy (Shae), Adminstrative Rank (Hand of the King), Hideous (from his wounds at Blackwater), Axe/Mace at DX (from fighting) and ultimately he should be stripped of many advantages and gain Social Stigma:Outlaw after the end of Storm of Swords.
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On April 18 2012 17:40 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 17:23 D10 wrote:
Tywin also switched sides, he betrayed the mad king in his hour of greatest need, he actually entered the town like a hero just to plunder and pillage it, baratheon and his rebels couldnt even get there in time before jaime killed the king Lannisters weren't involved in the war, he decieved Aerys to think his host came to defend KL, they never fought the rebels, treason, yes, but it wasnt changing sides when things looked sour, like Bolton
That's exactly what it was. The reason Tywin never declaired for Baratheon or came to the defense of the Mad King was because he was waiting to see where the cards fell so he knew he would end up on the winning side. Tywin is a good character but he's a dishonourable piece of shit in every possible way. He schemes and backstabs his way out of every situation that comes up.
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On April 18 2012 16:51 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 15:37 SF-Fork wrote:
I actually believe the Blackfish is not such an important character. He jumped of the castle walls into the river with bowmen shooting at him. Wouldn't it be martinesque is we just never hear from him again, while keeping our hopes and expectations high? Sooooo Benjen Stark? =P You're right, it could be very martin-esque to just have the Blackfish turn up on shore drowned. I don't think he's "important", but I do think he'll reappear. Even if he doesn't, I think Edmund Tully, though "captive" may have grown a pair post Red Wedding. Regardless, I wonder how the Riverlands will fare in the future. Are they something to factor into Littlefingers plans? Will they side again with the north? Also I have a question, does anyone else think that perhaps the ultimate plan by George Martin is to have a representative of each major house (the 7 kingdoms) unite at the end to return the lands to peace? I keep trying to think "If you could have a champion/liegelord to represent each kingdom at the end for unity of the lands, who will they be?". I mean, it feels like people like Sansa and Theon are set up to be the new representatives for a house which may promote unity. I wonder if there is to be a representative for all?
In FFC (I think, might be DWD) Littlefinger basically tells Sansa that his end game is having her marry the guy that is somewhere in line for the succession in the Eyrie. Then using her claim to the Eyrie (because obviously the people in front of her husband in succession will magically disappear) and her Tully blood to raise the Riverlands + Vale and press her claim to Winterfell.
Also remember that, as far as I know, Littlefinger is still techincally the liege lord of the riverlands as he is given that title by the Lannisters along with Harrenhal for his role in bringing about the Lannister/Tyrell alliance before the battle at Kings Landing. They don't have any reason to take away his title because the Riverlands are basically still a war zone and no one is going to be actually using the title any time soon. Although towards the end of the last two books the siege at Riverrun is finally over so we will see what happens.
Of course this is Littlefinger saying all of this so who knows what he will actually do.
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On April 19 2012 02:05 D10 wrote:
Using the D&D 9 alignments doesnt work on real people
You need to use an advantages/disadvantages system like GURPS.
Of course they do.. when you understand how they work. D&D alignment system is rigid because it works on the principle of universal truth. They can be applied to any world once you use same universal truth to it.
In Tyrion case he is Lawful Neutral or just True Neutral. Yes, he does some questionable stuff at times like getting the singer killed, kills his father and Shae in rage, but he does good things towards people where he would not have any benefit.
In comparison Tywin is Neutral Evil, he uses laws and traditions to further his goals and breaks them when it suits him (red wedding). And of course he starts wars and kills anyone in his path to further his goal and uses anyone that he doesn't kill.
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I....I......
I can't.....
catelyn, robb, arya.... why.....
fuck george why the fuck are you so mean 
Yeah, this weeding on book 3 was the biggest surprise i've got in this books yet.
pretty fucking huge.
ok, go back to reading.
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Angel he probably read the part where she takes an axe to the head
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EPT
