|
SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
|
|
On April 04 2012 03:30 zeru wrote:
I expected Asha to be less good looking, and a bit heavier set. The actor for Salladhor is perfect though, damn. But i never picked up on the implications of Stannis and Melisandre banging on the books. They are failing pretty hard at covering up Aryas femaleness though, expected her to look way more boyish at this point in the series.
Them banging was implied in the books. Note that the shadow babies are described to look like Stannis, so they are his children in a sense.
|
On April 04 2012 03:30 zeru wrote:
I expected Asha to be less good looking, and a bit heavier set. The actor for Salladhor is perfect though, damn. But i never picked up on the implications of Stannis and Melisandre banging on the books. They are failing pretty hard at covering up Aryas femaleness though, expected her to look way more boyish at this point in the series.
Yes, Arya is not boying enough. At some scenes I though I could see her boobs protruding just a bit through the clothes :D
Or maybe that was just the kind of things she had on. It would be pretty tough for production if she decided to "bloom" during filming of these scenes :D
|
On April 04 2012 01:48 -Archangel- wrote:
I understand changes around Stannis and showing him have sex with Melissandre.
I understand making Bronn new city watch commander.
I understand not having Rorge without his nose.
I can understand killing one of the bloodriders.
I can even understand changing Asha name and looks.
But I don't understand end of ep with John and Craster. wtf are they doing :/
Either Craster kills John or Ghost kills Craster. Both ways suck for rest of the story (of course I don't expect John to die). What else can happen?! Craster just takes John back to Mormont and tells them all to go away (which is just stupid as killing him is more logical). Or Ghost attacks Craster but John stops him before he kills him and takes him back to Mormont but Mormont sides with Craster as he does not want to lose his help. This again is stupid to me as Ghost is big enough now to just rip Crasters throat open. I wish they found another way to create a cliffhanger....
I agree, its tough to wrap my head around this one. My guess is that Craster just leaves Jon there. Jon then wakes up and rejoins his brothers as they leave Craster's keep. Still seems incredibly un-necessary.
|
On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here.
The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts?
Jem from westeros.org put it this way:
Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?".
Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods 
As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey.
|
Stannis and Mel , wtf :/ , that man is supposed to be made of Iron!
Jon´s final scene was kinda stupid...
what´s asha´s name in the series ?
|
On April 04 2012 03:50 Carras wrote:
what´s asha´s name in the series ?
Yara Greyjoy. They didn't want people to confuse Asha with Osha (the wildling).
|
On April 04 2012 03:57 moopie wrote:Yara Greyjoy. They didn't want people to confuse Asha with Osha (the wildling).
It makes sense if you think about it. Especially with the accents all the characters have, a lot of a's and o's are pronounced similar.
|
"Asha is lean and long-legged, with short black hair and a sharp nose in a thin face.[2]"
Fat ugly and short. Hm...
Also in the books she introduces herself very nicely when she flirts with Theon to get to know his intentions, but in the show, it was only Theon who touched her and there was not too much of a conversation.
|
Can I just ask out of curiosity is the ending to episode two in the books? It seemed a little out of place somehow for me
|
On April 04 2012 05:51 Ebzy wrote:
Can I just ask out of curiosity is the ending to episode two in the books? It seemed a little out of place somehow for me
No this is totally different from the books, quite intresting why it was done this way. There are some other dissimilarities also but those are very understandable, etc Bronn becoming captain of the guard instead of adding yet another new character.
|
On April 04 2012 05:58 Hipinretku wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 05:51 Ebzy wrote:
Can I just ask out of curiosity is the ending to episode two in the books? It seemed a little out of place somehow for me No this is totally different from the books, quite intresting why it was done this way. There are some other dissimilarities also but those are very understandable, etc Bronn becoming captain of the guard instead of adding yet another new character.
Thanks for clarifying Yeah I wonder why? As I said it just seemed like a plot device more than part of the story that I was so engrossed into!
|
On April 04 2012 03:46 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here. The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts? Jem from westeros.org put it this way: Show nested quote +Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?". Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey.
Personally, I took it exactly as they showed it on the show....Craster sacrificing his sons so that the Others leave him alone. Why else are the Others going around killing every wildling in sight while Craster's sitting nice and cozy in the middle of the dead zone untouched by any zombies? It sure as hell ain't the scared little girls keeping them away.
|
On April 04 2012 06:07 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 03:46 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here. The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts? Jem from westeros.org put it this way: Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?". Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey. Personally, I took it exactly as they showed it on the show....Craster sacrificing his sons so that the Others leave him alone. Why else are the Others going around killing every wildling in sight while Craster's sitting nice and cozy in the middle of the dead zone untouched by any zombies? It sure as hell ain't the scared little girls keeping them away.
There can be several reasons. If Craster's sacrifices are indeed what woke the Others, then that's reason to leave him be for now. Also, Craster poses no threat, he has no warriors and nobody to put up a fight. The wildlings are a warrior society, they have torches, they have are actively resisting the Others and Wights, that makes them a higher priority threat/annoyance.
|
On April 04 2012 06:28 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:07 antelope591 wrote:On April 04 2012 03:46 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here. The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts? Jem from westeros.org put it this way: Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?". Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey. Personally, I took it exactly as they showed it on the show....Craster sacrificing his sons so that the Others leave him alone. Why else are the Others going around killing every wildling in sight while Craster's sitting nice and cozy in the middle of the dead zone untouched by any zombies? It sure as hell ain't the scared little girls keeping them away. There can be several reasons. If Craster's sacrifices are indeed what woke the Others, then that's reason to leave him be for now. Also, Craster poses no threat, he has no warriors and nobody to put up a fight. The wildlings are a warrior society, they have torches, they have are actively resisting the Others and Wights, that makes them a higher priority threat/annoyance.
Maybe but its not like Craster's keep is way out of the way on a mountain somewhere...he's literally in the middle of the forest with villages all around him that have been completely wiped out by the Others. It's not like it would be a big investment for them to take out Craster and his wives and more corpses = more soldiers. Just makes more sense to me that they would have a deal like Gilly implies
|
What do you think of the scene where Littlefinger threatens the girl?
I think it was a nice addition to the books. It shows him totally merciless for a moment, but then he shows some compassion and gives a dayoff.
|
United States7166 Posts
|
On April 04 2012 06:28 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:07 antelope591 wrote:On April 04 2012 03:46 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here. The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts? Jem from westeros.org put it this way: Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?". Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey. Personally, I took it exactly as they showed it on the show....Craster sacrificing his sons so that the Others leave him alone. Why else are the Others going around killing every wildling in sight while Craster's sitting nice and cozy in the middle of the dead zone untouched by any zombies? It sure as hell ain't the scared little girls keeping them away. There can be several reasons. If Craster's sacrifices are indeed what woke the Others, then that's reason to leave him be for now. Also, Craster poses no threat, he has no warriors and nobody to put up a fight. The wildlings are a warrior society, they have torches, they have are actively resisting the Others and Wights, that makes them a higher priority threat/annoyance.
I dont think the others suddenly show mercy to someone who poses no threat to them. It is just that Craster's is a bunch of women that constantly supplies them with young boys. They are useful to them, so they let them continue. That is at least the most logical explanation. And it should be exactly what the Nights Watch should suspect, even if they dont know for sure.
I cant see how a roof over their head justfies letting this procedure continue. Also they could still have that roof even after Craster is gone.
When I read the book I thought that after John learned about this he would tell Mormont and they would immediatly take Craster out and send the women south of the wall. I was puzzled when it was just ignored because I thought fighting the Others was the main goal of their expedition.
|
On April 04 2012 06:28 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:07 antelope591 wrote:On April 04 2012 03:46 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On April 03 2012 16:08 moopie wrote:On April 03 2012 15:29 LilClinkin wrote:On April 03 2012 15:21 Crazyeyes wrote:There's nothing that suggests he doesn't still have his mountain men. When he walked in on the first episode, he was followed by Bronn and a man with a giant axe. I assumed he was one of the montain dudes? None of them were given any leadership roles. Bronn's replacing that one guy... forgot his name... I liked him, but he didn't exactly last long. Episode 2 Spoiler for those of you who want to wait until next week + Show Spoiler +
They're also making the white walkers much more prominent, eh? Seeing one already. I saw the blue eyes!
There was always the assumption that he gave his sons to the Others to keep himself safe, but now we know for sure.
And speaking of assumptions. MELLISANDRE! Again, even though it was always assumed, we now KNOW that Stannis fucked her to create the demon shadow thing (which I by the way thought was the lamest part of the entire series. Seroiusly? Shadow demon birth thing? That's a bit silly). Which is neat.
I never realized that the show can help us learn things that the books couldn't.
I know it isn't explicitly stated in the books, but I still think it's pretty obvious that Craster gifted his boys to the Others, and Stannis obviously has sex with Mellisandre to birth the shadows. Well it was a rumor that he sacrificed his sons to the others. Thats not really the same as actually giving them and them actually being recieved. Its like how they used to sacrifice chickens/goats to appease the gods. It was not just a rumour. It was explicitly said by the daughter / wife that came to John. That woman even said the gods who took the boys had blue eyes. Does not get much more explicit. And when John told Mormont that Craster gives his sons and his animals to the Others, Mormont answered that he knew already. Which was strange because shortly ago Mormont was totally surprised by the Others and was nearly killed by one of their wights. Even more strange was that Mormont didnt act on that simply because Craster provided the Watch a roof from time to time. You might think that stopping supply to their number one enemy, the Others, is a priority for the Nights Watch. But they were apparently cool with more humans strengthening them further. At this part the book did not make much sense to me. Maybe the TV series will do better here. The way I understood it when I read it was that Craster sacrificed his sons to the others. I didn't take it to mean that in a literal way of him handing his sons to the others or having a set agreement with them. I just assumed it was a parallel to when people sacrificed chickens/crops/whatever to appease the gods. Did the gods actually recieve or care about the gifts? Jem from westeros.org put it this way: Personally I don't think that Craster had a 'deal' as such with The Others. I think he just wanted to get rid of his boys so that he would be the only male. An expedient way of disposing of a newborn infant in a cold climate is to expose him to the elements. At some stage Craster then noticed that after killing his sons, The Others left his family alone. Coincidence? Maybe. Like if you sacrifice your first born child for good crops and you get good crops, is that a coincidence? Or intervention from the gods? Who knows, but it might be a good idea to keep giving sacrifice, just to be on the safe side.
In any case, I don't think that The Others approached Craster with a contract and asked him to sign on the dotted line. I think it is more of a case of lucky circumstances (well, not so lucky for the babies and their mothers). Either The Others did accept Craster's sons as a 'gift' or something else is keeping The Others away from Craster (like maybe they are busy preparing a war against the south).
Either way, Craster noticed the correlation of dead baby = no Others and attributed the lack of Others to his own "sacrifice" (obviously it isn't a real sacrifice, because Craster doesn't want the boys anyway. Calling it a sacrifice is just Craster's way of making his women comply). But I think that if you asked an Other about their deal with Craster, they would say "what deal?". Also, take into account that Craster already has teenage daughters (and possibly older), so he has been living this way for a while. The Others and Wights only started reappearing in recent years, so +15-20 years ago (when Craster had his earlier daughters, like Gilly) he still killed off his sons, yet the Others may not have even reappeared back then. Theres also the (remote) possibility that it was Craster's sacrifices that re-awoke the Others and allowed them to return. Either way it seems that Craster was performing this 'sacrifice' before the Others reappeared and we don't know the method of how the sacrifice went. Craster considers himself a "godly man" but it never says which gods As for Gilly's statements of Craster's sons being sacrificed to the blue eyed gods, they don't have to be literal. Gilly doesn't know anything other than what Craster told her. He tells his women that he's giving the boys to appease the blue eyed gods (the Others), they obey. Personally, I took it exactly as they showed it on the show....Craster sacrificing his sons so that the Others leave him alone. Why else are the Others going around killing every wildling in sight while Craster's sitting nice and cozy in the middle of the dead zone untouched by any zombies? It sure as hell ain't the scared little girls keeping them away. There can be several reasons. If Craster's sacrifices are indeed what woke the Others, then that's reason to leave him be for now. Also, Craster poses no threat, he has no warriors and nobody to put up a fight. The wildlings are a warrior society, they have torches, they have are actively resisting the Others and Wights, that makes them a higher priority threat/annoyance.
Wasn't it implied that Mance awoke the Others when he was opening ancient graves to look for Horn of Jaramun(sp)?
Anyway I don't like the scene at all, and I think there are too many logical questions that won't get satisfying answers to in the next episode.
|
Everyone needs to keep in mind that in the books we only know what is seen through POV of the character of that Chapter. So inless Davos was keeping an eye on the love making we would never had seen them bang. I think it's interesting how were going to actually see what Robb does without having to look through Cat's eyes.
About the Craster thing he is invaluable to everyone including the others cause he doesn't care about anyone but him and his wives. So he will give out information to anyone. Plus he is crazy and has a new axe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
