EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 438
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On April 12 2014 01:44 Spaylz wrote: I don't know that Oberyn was involved in Joffrey's death. In AFFC, we learn in Sansa's chapters that Littlefinger set the whole thing up with the Queen of Thorns. At least, that's what Littlefinger says. It's possible that Oberyn might have helped though, as he is an expert in poisons. There are even suspicions of Oberyn/Ollena poisoning Tywin, due to the heavy stench of his corpse, and the fact that he was in the privy when Tyrion found him. I'm not saying he was involved, and I'm not even sure that's a widely held theory. I'm saying that if it weren't for circumstantial evidence pointing at Tyrion and Cersei's hate for him, Oberyn would likely be the #1 suspect (to the characters in the books, not the readers), and he says as much to Tyrion later on. I think it is definitely Littlefinger/Olenna, and the way it went down indicates (to me) that they were trying to pin it on Oberyn and take out two birds with one stone, but Tyrion was in the wrong place at the wrong time and it worked out the way it did. I also don't think Olenna had anything to do with poisoning Tywin, which would seem to contradict her goals. Eliminating Joffrey makes sense because he would have made a terrible husband for Margaery and a terrible king for the realm. Tommen is too young to tell what kind of king he will be, but no one would argue that he is cruel. Disposing of Joffrey for Tommen makes sense for the Tyrells, but Tywin is the only thing holding up the Lannisters and keeping Cersei in check, and despite his faults would make an excellent guardian for Tommen to teach him how to rule. If he really was poisoned, that has vengeance written all over it, which would point to Oberyn, especially due to the fact that he even discusses a very specific poison with Tyrion in the books. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On April 12 2014 02:47 Irrelevant Label wrote: Jaime's presence at the PW, and the fact that he'll apparently be the KG right at Joff's side, is a twist that they'll need to account for. With Jaime standing right there it will be a blunder if they carry on with no change to the progression of events between Tyrion pouring for Joff through the moment Cersei accuses Tyrion. I see no reason why he can't be there with Joffrey and he still dies from poison. They will probably even use it to further drive a wedge between Cersei and Jaime, with him taking all the blame for allowing their son to die. He'll likely be reluctant to blame Tyrion for it, but won't have a choice because Cersei orders him arrested. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 12 2014 02:52 ZasZ. wrote: I see no reason why he can't be there with Joffrey and he still dies from poison. They will probably even use it to further drive a wedge between Cersei and Jaime, with him taking all the blame for allowing their son to die. He'll likely be reluctant to blame Tyrion for it, but won't have a choice because Cersei orders him arrested. Or it's possible that Jaime will be away, maybe talking to Brienne outside of the feast or on patrol or something. Then it could play out similarly to the books, where he isn't physically there to stop the arrest and Cersei blames him for not being there to save Joff. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 12 2014 02:37 Redox wrote: I absolutely disagree. It was very obvious she was just a whore, and Tyrion told so himself several times. She did what she was paid for, she just happened to be very good at her job. Also this was not a "first opportunity". He was basically done for, so her relationship with Tyrion was over. And you can not expect a whore to defy the queen and Tywin to protect her best customer. That makes no sense. Killing her was absolutely uncalled for from a moral perspective. It just happened as a consequence of all the humiliation Tyrion had experienced in love matters all his life. Yes, Tyrion told himself that she's just a whore again and again because he clearly developed feelings for her. He knew he shouldn't, but he did, and he wanted to believe that maybe she had some feelings for him, too. That's why he was so crushed when she testified against him. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On April 12 2014 02:52 ZasZ. wrote: I see no reason why he can't be there with Joffrey and he still dies from poison. They will probably even use it to further drive a wedge between Cersei and Jaime, with him taking all the blame for allowing their son to die. He'll likely be reluctant to blame Tyrion for it, but won't have a choice because Cersei orders him arrested. Oh, Joff will still die of poisoning. I'm referring to the fact that Cersei can't just accuse Tyrion on killing Joff with Jaime standing right there, having watched the whole interaction with his veteran kingsguard eyes and more realistic and sympathetic views of Tyrion, without some other things added to square it all together. He stayed out of the trial because he knew nothing about what had happened and had not been there. If he is standing at Joff's side when Joff dies that means Jaime has to be substantially involved in the proceedings that follow and he will be a roadblock to the simple accusation and immediate arrest from the book. It could be as simple as something drawing Jaime away, or maybe a couple lines. I'd hope for more. They cannot take the scene from the book, with Jaime pasted into the picture next to Joff, and have a scene that makes sense. I guess all I'm saying is that Jaime has to do something if he is going to be present in that scene, and that alone is almost sure to be a meaningful departure from the book. A major character with some bearing on the event being present or not at a major event just can't happen without ripples. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On April 12 2014 03:21 Irrelevant Label wrote: Oh, Joff will still die of poisoning. I'm referring to the fact that Cersei can't just accuse Tyrion on killing Joff with Jaime standing right there, having watched the whole interaction with his veteran kingsguard eyes and more realistic and sympathetic views of Tyrion, without some other things added to square it all together. He stayed out of the trial because he knew nothing about what had happened and had not been there. If he is standing at Joff's side when Joff dies that means Jaime has to be substantially involved in the proceedings that follow and he will be a roadblock to the simple accusation and immediate arrest from the book. It could be as simple as something drawing Jaime away, or maybe a couple lines. I'd hope for more. They cannot take the scene from the book and just paste Jaime into it next to Joff and have a scene that makes sense. That might just serve as additional reason for the split between Jaime and Cercei as well as additional motivation for Jaime to free Tyrion. I dont see a problem, I think it fits rather nice. | ||
KwarK
United States43565 Posts
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KwarK
United States43565 Posts
Crossposting this from the other topic because I don't think it was linked here and holy shit the Hound can act. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 13 2014 06:58 sc2holar wrote: Dude dont go around telling people in the TV thread if information is relevant or not for the current events/timeline... It would be nice if you would heed your own advice, sc2holar. It is not at all "obvious" that the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna saga is not as it seems to the TV show viewers. Hell, I dare say that 90% of them would have no idea who Lyanna was in the first place. Even with the additional material from the DVDs, you barely get a hint that something happened, let alone that it is not at all clear what happened. Was Lyanna ever mentioned by name in the show? And who, besides Robert, ever spoke of Rhaegar in the show? How could you possibly come to the conclusion you came to by just watching/reading the TV show material? You are very clearly using your book knowledge to point out important points to note for the show viewers: "Hey, maybe Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna. I wonder what that means. Hinthintwinkwinknudgenudge!" Please stop doing that. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
Most of the other thread is people who read the books arguing about things and trying to dodge spoiler rules anyway, so it's a bit silly to nitpick specific comments. | ||
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KwarK
United States43565 Posts
On April 13 2014 07:29 Conti wrote: (From the other thread) It would be nice if you would heed your own advice, sc2holar. It is not at all "obvious" that the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna saga is not as it seems to the TV show viewers. Hell, I dare say that 90% of them would have no idea who Lyanna was in the first place. Even with the additional material from the DVDs, you barely get a hint that something happened, let alone that it is not at all clear what happened. Was Lyanna ever mentioned by name in the show? And who, besides Robert, ever spoke of Rhaegar in the show? How could you possibly come to the conclusion you came to by just watching/reading the TV show material? You are very clearly using your book knowledge to point out important points to note for the show viewers: "Hey, maybe Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna. I wonder what that means. Hinthintwinkwinknudgenudge!" Please stop doing that. Taken care of. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
It doesn't take a whole lot to question the kidnapping thing, and they (unsullied) do just so. Barristan, Jorah, and now even Oberyn all refer to Rhaegar as this honorable to a fault type guy. That doesn't fit kidnapping too well. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
In the show however, that part of the war hasn't even been mentioned yet. The whole Lyanna Stark/Rhaegar Targaryen thing hasn't been covered at all. We only know that she was abducted, died, and was buried in the crypts at Winterfell. I mean, the importance of Lyanna is somewhat subtle even in the books, and to any Unsullied, I'd say the character has no importance whatsoever. If I recall correctly, she was mentioned three times. Once in the pilot, when King Robert arrives in Winterfell, once at the end of S1 (I think), when Bran and Osha explore the crypts, and he speaks about his lineage. They stumble upon Lyanna's grave, and Bran explains she was kidnapped, and that Robert started the war to win her back, but she died anyway. The third and last time is when Ned confronts Cersei about the parentage of her children, and she tells him about how Robert thought she was Lyanna on their wedding night. If anybody remembers any more mentions of her, feel free, but I think that is it. It's about the same for Rhaegar. In the show, we know he died in single combat against Robert, we know he kidnapped Lyanna, and he is briefly talked about in some of Dany's scenes by Jorah and Barristan. Whereas in AFFC, we have several callbacks to Rhaegar, mostly in Cersei's and Jaime's chapters, when they remember him under different circumstances. Before that, characters like Ned or Dany think about him as well, and I think Tyrion. In any case, he is only briefly mentioned in the show, and as with Lyanna, I doubt anyone would think he could have any impact on the current story without having read the books. I have to admit it's a topic I wouldn't be able to discuss in the other thread. There is clearly not enough material to start a debate in the show, where Lyanna is, at the moment, a less-than-minor character. The biggest reason for this is that she was mostly mentioned in the characters' thoughts, such as Ned or Cersei. She was also recalled by several characters in different POVs due to Rhaegar choosing her as her queen of love and beauty during the Tourney at Harrenhal, which is something the show has yet to cover. I think the lore stuff covers it? I would assume so, since the GoT wiki does talk about it, but it hasn't been talked about on screen. edit: there's also the scene between Robert and Cersei, when they speak about their marriage and she asks him what Lyanna was like. I guess they did mention her a few times, but if I were an Unsullied, I wouldn't think she still had any relevance somehow. It's hard to imagine, hehe. On the same topic, I hope some day we get the Tower of Joy scene in the show. I doubt it's going to happen, as it would require a flashback. Maybe some greenseeing through Bran in the next couple of seasons, when he "becomes" a tree and gains the ability to see the past and the future... But I don't think they'll go there. It's a shame, because I think that scene is pure gold. The exchange between Ned and the Kingsguards was amazing. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 13 2014 08:18 Irrelevant Label wrote: Lyanna is mentioned in the show. It happens a few times early on couple of times by Bran and Robert. The top over-thinker unsullied even have their own variations on Jon parentage theories, but they tend to think he is probably Robert and Lyanna's son. It doesn't take a whole lot of question the kidnapping thing, and they (unsullied) do just so. Barristan, Jorah, and now even Oberyn all refer to Rhaegar as this honorable to a fault type guy. That doesn't fit kidnapping too well. The mass doesn't really think about, but it's the sort of theory anyone could come up with given the information on the show and HBO videos. People just forget about it or don't really care untill someone brings up the facts and leads the discussion. It's not more "spoilery" than the poster that said the short sword would go to Joffrey because he is short, it's just a very important discussion for book readers and completelly forgotten about by show watcher because of how little emphasis it has on the show so far. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
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dravernor
Netherlands6191 Posts
 His 'death' was untimely. I actually haven't finished ADWD, maybe I should get onto that. I found it really heavy going after book 4.I only just watched the latest episode this weekend, I was pretty disappointed if I am honest and Oberyn is not what I expected. | ||
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chroniX
517 Posts
What if Shae doesnt betray Tyrion? Cersei and Tywin already know that Tyrion has a secret whore as girlfriend and take her hostage to use it against Tyrion. She is gone from then. Storyline goes on and in the end Shae kinda takes the part of Tysha (who is not existant in the show) in Tyrions quest to find her .... "Where whores go...". | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 14 2014 04:57 chroniX wrote: Coming back to the Shae discussion: What if Shae doesnt betray Tyrion? Cersei and Tywin already know that Tyrion has a secret whore as girlfriend and take her hostage to use it against Tyrion. She is gone from then. Storyline goes on and in the end Shae kinda takes the part of Tysha (who is not existant in the show) in Tyrions quest to find her .... "Where whores go...". I made this prediction last season, actually. I still consider it possible that Shae will remain loyal to Tyrion, will be forced to testify against him, and then Tywin or Cersei will have Shae executed (possibly with Tyrion watching), thus making him just as bitter and depressed as in the books. It's easily possible to get the "wherever whores go" line in there somewhere to refer to Shae instead, though they might as well just skip it. Edit: Come to think of it, it would probably be Tywin who has Shae killed. Gives Tyrion the motivation to put a bolt through the old bastard's gut. Tysha was actually mentioned in the show, but not by name. Tyrion told the story (or parts of it) in the first season to Shae and Bronn. But I don't think they have mentioned it since. | ||
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