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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
I recently finished reading the book and I was wondering if anyone found the show to be a bit better at the surprise and realism elements than the books ?
From what I read I can honestly say that the only death that surprised me a bit was the one of prince Oberon. Other than that the book seem so "cheesy" compared to the show. It was pretty fucking obvious what characters are shielded from death due to the visions and/or other symbolism and the PoV. In the show the only character that I kinda felt would not die were Dany because than that whole story line would have gone to shit and Arya.
And that was mainly because the show doesn't have only 4 or 5 POV per season. Sometimes you see things from the perspective of Rob, other times from that of Cat, sometimes from that of Jof other times from that of Cersei.
It might be just me tho, I admit that I would have not expected Ned's death in book one. But other than that, even the red weeding was made pretty obvious, but there was a felling that something is "cheesy" from way before they even meet Frey, unlike the show where I didn't expect jack until the Rains of Castamere started playing.
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so you watched the show, then just recently finished the books?
It is easier to see things coming if you know they are coming. Your mind is almost actively searching for the small hints that GRRM has thrown in the books.
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It's pretty obvious that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya have plot shield, both in the books and the show.
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On July 27 2013 02:22 TheAura wrote:
so you watched the show, then just recently finished the books?
It is easier to see things coming if you know they are coming. Your mind is almost actively searching for the small hints that GRRM has thrown in the books.
I'm talking about the 2nd half of book 3, book 4 and book 5 deaths.
I just gave the red weeding as an example because that was portrayed in the show as well as the books.
I can't talk about the death of Tywin Lannister or the death of Joff being less predictable than the show because the show didn't cover them yet.
I know that it isn't exactly fair to give that as an example tho because I was indeed stumbling upon hints that I would have not picked up did I not know what happened. Still, the fact that Rob was treated as a main character and got a shit load of screen time in the show as opposed to the book where it was 90% Cat and all of it Cat's POV made me fell like it would have been less of an "OH FUCK" moment even if you were to read it in the books first.
On July 27 2013 02:26 CrimsonLotus wrote:
It's pretty obvious that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya have plot shield, both in the books and the show.
Is it that obvious that Jon is plot shielded in the show ? If I was to see the assassination in the show I might have heavily questioned weather or not he is dead. As opposed to the books where there is 1 chapter of Varamir and 1 chapter of Melisandre that are there to explain the way he will get resurrected without permanent damage before it even happens.
In the show, since Jon isn't quite so obvious the focus of most of the action happening in the North and character thoughts aren't really revealed that scene might have well made half the audience think he is gone for good.
Than again, I guess i'll have to wait 5 years and see.
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On July 27 2013 02:28 Aterons_toss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 27 2013 02:22 TheAura wrote:
so you watched the show, then just recently finished the books?
It is easier to see things coming if you know they are coming. Your mind is almost actively searching for the small hints that GRRM has thrown in the books. I'm talking about the 2nd half of book 3, book 4 and book 5 deaths. I just gave the red weeding as an example because that was portrayed in the show as well as the books. I can't talk about the death of Tywin Lannister or the death of Joff being less predictable than the show because the show didn't cover them yet. I know that it isn't exactly fair to give that as an example tho because I was indeed stumbling upon hints that I would have not picked up did I not know what happened. Still, the fact that Rob was treated as a main character and got a shit load of screen time in the show as opposed to the book where it was 90% Cat and all of it Cat's POV made me fell like it would have been less of an "OH FUCK" moment even if you were to read it in the books first. Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 02:26 CrimsonLotus wrote:
It's pretty obvious that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya have plot shield, both in the books and the show. + Show Spoiler +Is it that obvious that Jon is plot shielded in the show ? If I was to see the assassination in the show I might have heavily questioned weather or not he is dead. As opposed to the books where there is 1 chapter of Varamir and 1 chapter of Melisandre that are there to explain the way he will get resurrected without permanent damage before it even happens.
In the show, since Jon isn't quite so obvious the focus of most of the action happening in the North and character thoughts aren't really revealed that scene might have well made half the audience think he is gone for good.
Than again, I guess i'll have to wait 5 years and see.
mmm Robb's death I'd say is probably the only one I'd agree with. I mean in both the book and show there are tons of little hints at his demise. The show, however, makes it a little less obvious because he's far more developed there (as is Talisa). I mean, if I had only watched the show and had no knowledge of the books, I would've thought Robb was there to stay. That HE is in fact the PoV character
The real shock of the RW was Catelyn's death imo. In fact that whole event was more surprising than the show because a PoV character dies there. Also, unlike the show, the book lures you into more of a false sense of security in mentioning the Guests Right once they reach The Twins. The show just has Robb eat the bread and salt without a good explanation as to its significance.
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On July 27 2013 02:26 CrimsonLotus wrote:
It's pretty obvious that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya have plot shield, both in the books and the show.
I'd say NOW Tyrion does. In books 2 and 3 there were moments where I thought he was a goner. It would've fit too. It's not uncommon to see the more honorable and courageous character to bite the dust. Now, however, I don't see him going out at all. It just wouldn't fit.
Arya I see probably making it to the end of the story, Jon at least for another book. They just seem to have too much left in their arc to just suddenly die.
Dany is the one that I disagree on. I think she could go (just not right away in book 6, more towards the end). It's possible she makes it to Westeros with an army, but I don't think of that as necessary to complete her arc. I feel she was designed to be our main gateway into Essos and introduce dragons into the story. Now with more characters venturing over to that part of the world and a possibility that Victarion gains control of the 1 or more of the dragons...well idk.
I mean the warlocks that want her dead are still in the story right? Perhaps she'll finish subjugating Slaver's Bay and then be assassinated. As long as she leaves an impact in the east.
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Jon and Dany have plot shields given how important they are to their respective stories. This is less evident with Jon on the show because the issue of the identity of his parents is barely hinted, but he's still effectively the protagonist in the north and this is obvious even in the show. If he dies soon then the whole beyond the wall plot line loses it's central figure from the viewer POV.
Arya and Tyrion's plot armor comes from a very simple fact, they're "cool", fan and author favorites. Neither of them is absolutely essential to the greater plot and only became relevant because they consistently beat the odds and achieve things far beyond what you could reassonably expect from them. Meaning that the author is building them to much greater things. This is evident in the show as well.
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I waited 2 years to start this series on the grounds that it's harder to find good TV than a good book, but the Red Wedding broke me. In hindsight, it's better to see screen adaptations of stuff you've already read rather than vice versa so I'm content with spoiling the TV show.
Book 1: While reading this, the cruel and completely unfair joke I enjoyed telling my friends was, "I want to finish the series to find out if there's a twist ending where George Martin learns how to write." The dialogue made me feel immersed in Westeros, but everything else just reminded me I was sitting in my reading chair (including monologues, oddly). When Catelyn Stark described a blood spray as being "like warm rain," I laughed so hard I had to put the book down. It happened again when Jon saw Ser Allister walking "like he had a dagger up his butt". There were a lot of sour notes in this book, but those are the two that really stuck with me.
Book 3: I like how he turned the guest right into a mini-theme. It let him pull together his disconnected storylines in a way that he never quite accomplishes in his other books. To me, this is what contributed most to making SoS feel like an actual book and not Mr. Martin's typical approach of "here's the next 1000 pages of my story". The epilogue of this book a great example of giving the reader a sensation of closure without actually concluding anything. It's the kind of cliffhanger I wish he did more often.
Book 4: The Cersei chapters were the first time I felt like the author really found a style. The Aeron and Victarion chapters also do this well, but Cersei was the first one I noticed. These characters are all antagonistic in the story, so it feels like Martin tried extra hard to make them sympathetic and in so doing found really engaging styles.
Book 5: The attempted mini-theme of cannibalism doesn't work as well as SoS's guest right. It gets completely washed out by the annoying mini-theme of claiming to kill someone but then not. It's almost like he's trying to undo all of the credibility established by the body count of the first 3 books. That said, the style feels more polished everywhere. The Quentyn scene with the dragons could have been pulled right out of any cornball monster movie, but the way he writes it makes it just fantastic. It's the readers first time to really see them as monsters of blood and fire instead of Dany's cute pets, and he writes it with the dark stylistic shift it deserves.
Fun read! I've not been a big consumer of pop fiction but I'm glad HBO found an entertaining one for me. Watching Mr. Martin grow as a writer over the years was a treat I had not expected. What books 4 and 5 lost in storytelling they well compensated in style.
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I don't see how anybody predicted Tywin dying the way he did. Tywin was clearly dying, he was sick (most probably poisoned by Oberyn, but that's a theory). It was very clear he was very sick and not getting any better. However, Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's room and killing them both was pretty unexpected for me (and awesome).
Joffrey's death was also more the "how" than the mere fact that he died.
I also wasn't expecting Quentyn's death. The whole storyline for the Martells is made rather pointless. I thought he'd have plot armor until he did something significant. I guess his significant act was to end as dragon feed. I wasn't at all emotionally involved with Quentyn, but his arc (and particularly his father's) seems like it was going to be more, and then... wasn't.
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Just finished ADWD. Overall I was quite disappointed with it, was expected something closer to ASOS in terms of drama.
My thoughts:
Daenerys - Man the Dany chapters were soo terrible, I was expecting this book to be mainly about her and some epic dragon action. She spent all her time in Meeren doing jack shit, her story only got interesting once she rode the dragon out of the pits.
Theon - The Reek chapters were easily the best POV in ADWD. I actually feel sorry for him now haha.
Jon - I hope Jon Snow stays dead, which kills the Azor Ahai theory. I am sick of characters dying and then coming back to life, it cheapens the story so badly. Was not happy when Catelyn came back to life either. I hope GRRM doesnt resort to cheap revivals. Also why would the wildlings need to come to the wall for help? Wouldn't they have survived many Winters before this one?
Stannis - Don't think he is dead, wouldn't trust anything that Ramsey says. Wonder what happened the karstark who was supposed to backstab him.
Tyrion - He was pretty average in this book, spent most of his time travelling on a ship. Had some funny lines here and there. Not sure how he found out the young griff was aegon though.
Arya - She will be a bad ass assassin in the next book.
Cersei - Watching the downfall of Cersei was great!
Dorne - Nothing interesting happened here, Quentyn dying wasn't a big deal.
Hopefully TWOW will be better than the last two books.
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On July 28 2013 12:34 Highways wrote:
Just finished ADWD. Overall I was quite disappointed with it, was expected something closer to ASOS in terms of drama.
My thoughts:
Daenerys - Man the Dany chapters were soo terrible, I was expecting this book to be mainly about her and some epic dragon action. She spent all her time in Meeren doing jack shit, her story only got interesting once she rode the dragon out of the pits.
Theon - The Reek chapters were easily the best POV in ADWD. I actually feel sorry for him now haha.
Jon - I hope Jon Snow stays dead, which kills the Azor Ahai theory. I am sick of characters dying and then coming back to life, it cheapens the story so badly. Was not happy when Catelyn came back to life either. I hope GRRM doesnt resort to cheap revivals. Also why would the wildlings need to come to the wall for help? Wouldn't they have survived many Winters before this one?
Stannis - Don't think he is dead, wouldn't trust anything that Ramsey says. Wonder what happened the karstark who was supposed to backstab him.
Tyrion - He was pretty average in this book, spent most of his time travelling on a ship. Had some funny lines here and there. Not sure how he found out the young griff was aegon though.
Arya - She will be a bad ass assassin in the next book.
Cersei - Watching the downfall of Cersei was great!
Dorne - Nothing interesting happened here, Quentyn dying wasn't a big deal.
Hopefully TWOW will be better than the last two books.
I think the Wildlings wanted protection from the others, not from the cold.
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On July 27 2013 07:24 Acrofales wrote:
I don't see how anybody predicted Tywin dying the way he did. Tywin was clearly dying, he was sick (most probably poisoned by Oberyn, but that's a theory). It was very clear he was very sick and not getting any better. However, Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's room and killing them both was pretty unexpected for me (and awesome).
Joffrey's death was also more the "how" than the mere fact that he died.
I also wasn't expecting Quentyn's death. The whole storyline for the Martells is made rather pointless. I thought he'd have plot armor until he did something significant. I guess his significant act was to end as dragon feed. I wasn't at all emotionally involved with Quentyn, but his arc (and particularly his father's) seems like it was going to be more, and then... wasn't.
Quentyn was always a supporting character in the Dorne arc. I'm not sure how his death diminished Arianne and/or Doran. Arianne is the central character of Dornish events.
Edit: They have cast Ellaria Sand. http://www.westeros.org/GoT/News/ links to -> http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/07/25/game-of-thrones-rome-actress/
She is minor enough that I wonder if this foretells that Dorne will not be too minimized. It's probably a stretch to try and read that much into it.
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On July 27 2013 02:28 Aterons_toss wrote:
Is it that obvious that Jon is plot shielded in the show ? If I was to see the assassination in the show I might have heavily questioned weather or not he is dead. As opposed to the books where there is 1 chapter of Varamir and 1 chapter of Melisandre that are there to explain the way he will get resurrected without permanent damage before it even happens.
It's even more obvious than in the books. They spent far too much production money on Jon for his arc to come end with a dagger in his back. If that were his fate, they would just have cut the majority of the Night Watch screentime until Stannis arrives.
The show gives Jon & Dany more plot shield than anything books could hope to do.
That said, plenty of characters are safe anyway. Martin doesn't randomly kill characters, he only eliminates important characters that become redundant to the story. Eddard had to die for all his children to become relevant to the story. Robb had to die because North had to lose the war and his character is meaningless without being King of the North. Catelyn had to die because without any of her children within reach, her character is meaningless (in its original form). And so on.
I'd be more worried for Dany than for Jon. Being stuck in one place doing repetitive things does not bode well for her, and now there needs to be some sort of a dramatic event to propagate her story. It likely won't kill her, but it might thoroughly change her.
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On July 28 2013 12:34 Highways wrote:
Just finished ADWD. Overall I was quite disappointed with it, was expected something closer to ASOS in terms of drama.
My thoughts:
Daenerys - Man the Dany chapters were soo terrible, I was expecting this book to be mainly about her and some epic dragon action. She spent all her time in Meeren doing jack shit, her story only got interesting once she rode the dragon out of the pits.
Theon - The Reek chapters were easily the best POV in ADWD. I actually feel sorry for him now haha.
Jon - I hope Jon Snow stays dead, which kills the Azor Ahai theory. I am sick of characters dying and then coming back to life, it cheapens the story so badly. Was not happy when Catelyn came back to life either. I hope GRRM doesnt resort to cheap revivals. Also why would the wildlings need to come to the wall for help? Wouldn't they have survived many Winters before this one?
Stannis - Don't think he is dead, wouldn't trust anything that Ramsey says. Wonder what happened the karstark who was supposed to backstab him.
Tyrion - He was pretty average in this book, spent most of his time travelling on a ship. Had some funny lines here and there. Not sure how he found out the young griff was aegon though.
Arya - She will be a bad ass assassin in the next book.
Cersei - Watching the downfall of Cersei was great!
Dorne - Nothing interesting happened here, Quentyn dying wasn't a big deal.
Hopefully TWOW will be better than the last two books.
Dany chapters were so whiny and boring, I agree. You can find out about Stannis and the Karstarks in Theon's TWOW preview chapter here: http://archive.is/eoIl
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Zurich15365 Posts
Apparently the actor of Benjin Stark has been spotted on location in Iceland.
"A certain actor by the name of Joseph Mawle was spotted in Reykjavik.
Obviously, NO SPOILERS of ANY KIND are allowed. Those who know what this probably means, stay silent, DON'T RUIN IT FOR THOSE WHO DON'T and smile. Maybe you were right."
https://www.facebook.com/PetyrBaelishLittlefinger/posts/530389400344150
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Do they hint that he could be coldhand?
Weeeeell, I could bet he is just visiting friends on set.
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On July 27 2013 07:24 Acrofales wrote:
I don't see how anybody predicted Tywin dying the way he did. Tywin was clearly dying, he was sick (most probably poisoned by Oberyn, but that's a theory). It was very clear he was very sick and not getting any better. However, Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's room and killing them both was pretty unexpected for me (and awesome).
Joffrey's death was also more the "how" than the mere fact that he died.
I also wasn't expecting Quentyn's death. The whole storyline for the Martells is made rather pointless. I thought he'd have plot armor until he did something significant. I guess his significant act was to end as dragon feed. I wasn't at all emotionally involved with Quentyn, but his arc (and particularly his father's) seems like it was going to be more, and then... wasn't.
Agreed, I maybe expected Tywin to get what's coming but not in the fashion that he did.
Same goes for Kevan Lannister, just when he finally started to grow on me in the books (convos with Cersei etc. ) Blam ,no more Kevan either !.
So far I'm not really into the Martells either, for such a grand schemer he sure does send many people to their deaths or mutilation (Oberyn, Quentyn and Myrcella, he totally should have saw Myrcella coming) for what ?......
yes, revenge on Clegane via a very painful death, don't think it would be worth losing your brother over though.
edit : what the, Benjen is alive ? that's ....pretty cool
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i never expected him to be dead, but nor did i expect him as coldhands which this could indicate...
i just always thought he had gotten stuck somewhere behind the frostfangs and couldnt get back past because the wildlings ammased first and then the snows blocked the passes - there've been rangers before who survived a winter there so i hoped he'd be the same. I much prefer the nightsking = coldhands idea, but changing the story wont be possible for us, altho it might just be a show =/= books thing where they dont wnna go indepth about the nights king (or whoever else coldhands might actually be)
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You guys heard the theory on who the sphinx is that Samwell meets in oldtown? Just wondering if you guys think it is correct?
Basicly it is that the sphinx Alleras is Sarella one of the sand snakes. She is pretending to be a man to study at oldtown.
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EPT
