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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
I guess Jon will be the one carrying on the Targaryen line. Dany is most likely barren (the only loop hole would be that the witch lied) and this Aegon is likely to marry her. Either that or he dies. I don't see him being the one who continues the Targaryen line though. There are theories as well that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre. It seems kind of 50/50 to me, but there's something fishy about him nevertheless. Who died in his place at the hands of ser Gregor? A child without white hair and purple eyes wouldn't fool anyone. Here's the link to the Blackfyre theory: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p844r/adwd_spoilers_and_speculation_septon_meribald/
It kind of saddens me, because I was hoping that Jon was going to carry the Stark line forward. Arya and Sansa are both women, so the name Stark would die with them, and honestly I thought Rickon had a spine injury that made his penis lame as well as his legs. I mean a spine injury that takes both of his legs kind of has to take the crotch as well? That might make him piss his pants though, but I'm not sure about the anatomy there and I rather don't google it to be honest in fear of seeing a dissected penis in full screen.
When looking at theories I also stumbled upon the Azor Ahai identity thread http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/azor_ahai_reborn.html and thought of the Maester Aemon quote. When I read the book I actually thought that that was the sign of Lightbringer, rather than the opposite. To me it would seem like a much more peculiar sword that shone and looked like fire than a sword that was actually "just" on fire.
I'd pick a light sabre over a flaming sword any day when it comes to epicness. Even more so if the light sabre was actually magic rather than mechanical. I guess GRRM doesn't agree ^^
Melisandre also seems to be a very competent 'witch' or whatever, and she says she sees Stannis Baratheon, so I was inclined to trust her on that. Dany seems to fit the prophecy a little too well for it not to be her though.
Beric Dundarrion also had a magic flaming sword. Well perhaps the sword wasn't magical, but I recall Arya seeing before the duel with Sandor that the sword just took fire while in Beric's hands. No oil or anything like that. And he's been reborn like 10 times already.
Overall the whole article is extremely interesting. I totally missed the lines with the dragon beneath Winterfell.
Besides all that. When starting reading the asoiaf series, I thought of the Gods as something they just prayed to and nothing particular would happen, but the further it goes, the more power the Gods show, or rather the Red God shows. As of yet I don't think any God beside the red one has done anything of note. The red priests though revive people, see the future, breed shadow assassins, heal incurable wounds, kill kings with burning leaches, burn ice away with their presence etc etc. It's kind of interesting how that plays out in the series. Does anyone remember if it's told somewhere why 'the seven' were accepted as the primary Westerosi religion? The Old Gods (which I guess show themselves in Rickon's dream kind of when he's seeing from the perspective of a tree) were abandoned for the seven, but why? They seem pretty useless.
Anyway I realized a while ago I'm rambling, but I kind of took a nose dive into the theories and wanted to share some of my finds and ideas in case someone could correct me or just get some of the pleasure I got from reading it 
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On July 01 2012 17:04 Euronyme wrote:Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I guess Jon will be the one carrying on the Targaryen line. Dany is most likely barren (the only loop hole would be that the witch lied) and this Aegon is likely to marry her. Either that or he dies. I don't see him being the one who continues the Targaryen line though. There are theories as well that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre. It seems kind of 50/50 to me, but there's something fishy about him nevertheless. Who died in his place at the hands of ser Gregor? A child without white hair and purple eyes wouldn't fool anyone. Here's the link to the Blackfyre theory: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p844r/adwd_spoilers_and_speculation_septon_meribald/It kind of saddens me, because I was hoping that Jon was going to carry the Stark line forward. Arya and Sansa are both women, so the name Stark would die with them, and honestly I thought Rickon had a spine injury that made his penis lame as well as his legs. I mean a spine injury that takes both of his legs kind of has to take the crotch as well? That might make him piss his pants though, but I'm not sure about the anatomy there and I rather don't google it to be honest in fear of seeing a dissected penis in full screen. When looking at theories I also stumbled upon the Azor Ahai identity thread http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/azor_ahai_reborn.html and thought of the Maester Aemon quote. When I read the book I actually thought that that was the sign of Lightbringer, rather than the opposite. To me it would seem like a much more peculiar sword that shone and looked like fire than a sword that was actually "just" on fire. I'd pick a light sabre over a flaming sword any day when it comes to epicness. Even more so if the light sabre was actually magic rather than mechanical. I guess GRRM doesn't agree ^^ Melisandre also seems to be a very competent 'witch' or whatever, and she says she sees Stannis Baratheon, so I was inclined to trust her on that. Dany seems to fit the prophecy a little too well for it not to be her though. Beric Dundarrion also had a magic flaming sword. Well perhaps the sword wasn't magical, but I recall Arya seeing before the duel with Sandor that the sword just took fire while in Beric's hands. No oil or anything like that. And he's been reborn like 10 times already. Overall the whole article is extremely interesting. I totally missed the lines with the dragon beneath Winterfell. Besides all that. When starting reading the asoiaf series, I thought of the Gods as something they just prayed to and nothing particular would happen, but the further it goes, the more power the Gods show, or rather the Red God shows. As of yet I don't think any God beside the red one has done anything of note. The red priests though revive people, see the future, breed shadow assassins, heal incurable wounds, kill kings with burning leaches, burn ice away with their presence etc etc. It's kind of interesting how that plays out in the series. Does anyone remember if it's told somewhere why 'the seven' were accepted as the primary Westerosi religion? The Old Gods (which I guess show themselves in Rickon's dream kind of when he's seeing from the perspective of a tree) were abandoned for the seven, but why? They seem pretty useless. Anyway I realized a while ago I'm rambling, but I kind of took a nose dive into the theories and wanted to share some of my finds and ideas in case someone could correct me or just get some of the pleasure I got from reading it
1. There is another loophole, the witch didnt say u ll never have children but [insert prohpecy] then ur womb will quicken again. And some of those seemingly impossible things seem to happen, like the Sun setting in the East (Quentyn Martell died in Essos, Martell's sygil is the Sun+Spear), Mountains blow in the wind (Tyrion seems to plot with the Windblown to take back the Westerlands+ Castley Rock, which are mostly mountains) When the Seas go dry (hm, i dont think that happened, maybe the Greyjoy line ending would fulfill that symbolically).
2. U seem to have merged RIckon+Bran, Bran has the spine injury and he s north of the Wall, Rickon was taken by Osha to Skagos.
3. Danny+Jon both almsot perfectly fit the Azor Ahai prophecy.
4. Berric Dondarrion was brought back to life 7 times i think, and then he sacrificed his "flame" to bring back Un-Cat.
Im not sold on the Faegon theory because of this HotU vision:
The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”
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On July 01 2012 16:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
And Joff was in all likelihood killed by Littlefinger's manipulating the Queen of Thornes to poison him with Sansa's head-jewelry thingy.
I don't think the Queen of Thorns was manipulated, she strikes me as the mastermind of the plan with LF's help. They both have something to gain from Joffrey dying, there didn't need to be manipulation involved.
Oleanna knew that Joffrey was a twat and that he was abusive to Sansa (both physically and emotionally). She clearly didn't want Margery to deal with anything like that and Tommen is so much easier to control (which indeed proved very useful for the Tyrells). Meanwhile, Littlefinger thrives on chaos as a way to gain more influence and also had plenty of reasons to want Joffrey dead, not to mention that gave him the opportunity to kidnap Sansa as well as potentially frame Tyrion who LF knew was dangerous to him. Oleanna isn't the type to get manipulated by LF.
More citations and quotes here - http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/joffrey.html
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On July 01 2012 17:04 Euronyme wrote:Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I guess Jon will be the one carrying on the Targaryen line. Dany is most likely barren (the only loop hole would be that the witch lied) and this Aegon is likely to marry her. Either that or he dies. I don't see him being the one who continues the Targaryen line though. There are theories as well that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre. It seems kind of 50/50 to me, but there's something fishy about him nevertheless. Who died in his place at the hands of ser Gregor? A child without white hair and purple eyes wouldn't fool anyone. Here's the link to the Blackfyre theory: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p844r/adwd_spoilers_and_speculation_septon_meribald/It kind of saddens me, because I was hoping that Jon was going to carry the Stark line forward. Arya and Sansa are both women, so the name Stark would die with them, and honestly I thought Rickon had a spine injury that made his penis lame as well as his legs. I mean a spine injury that takes both of his legs kind of has to take the crotch as well? That might make him piss his pants though, but I'm not sure about the anatomy there and I rather don't google it to be honest in fear of seeing a dissected penis in full screen. When looking at theories I also stumbled upon the Azor Ahai identity thread http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/azor_ahai_reborn.html and thought of the Maester Aemon quote. When I read the book I actually thought that that was the sign of Lightbringer, rather than the opposite. To me it would seem like a much more peculiar sword that shone and looked like fire than a sword that was actually "just" on fire. I'd pick a light sabre over a flaming sword any day when it comes to epicness. Even more so if the light sabre was actually magic rather than mechanical. I guess GRRM doesn't agree ^^ Melisandre also seems to be a very competent 'witch' or whatever, and she says she sees Stannis Baratheon, so I was inclined to trust her on that. Dany seems to fit the prophecy a little too well for it not to be her though. Beric Dundarrion also had a magic flaming sword. Well perhaps the sword wasn't magical, but I recall Arya seeing before the duel with Sandor that the sword just took fire while in Beric's hands. No oil or anything like that. And he's been reborn like 10 times already. Overall the whole article is extremely interesting. I totally missed the lines with the dragon beneath Winterfell. Besides all that. When starting reading the asoiaf series, I thought of the Gods as something they just prayed to and nothing particular would happen, but the further it goes, the more power the Gods show, or rather the Red God shows. As of yet I don't think any God beside the red one has done anything of note. The red priests though revive people, see the future, breed shadow assassins, heal incurable wounds, kill kings with burning leaches, burn ice away with their presence etc etc. It's kind of interesting how that plays out in the series. Does anyone remember if it's told somewhere why 'the seven' were accepted as the primary Westerosi religion? The Old Gods (which I guess show themselves in Rickon's dream kind of when he's seeing from the perspective of a tree) were abandoned for the seven, but why? They seem pretty useless. Anyway I realized a while ago I'm rambling, but I kind of took a nose dive into the theories and wanted to share some of my finds and ideas in case someone could correct me or just get some of the pleasure I got from reading it
I don't think Dany is barren. MMD's prophecy was already fulfilled in ADWD when Drogon returned to her. Dany's illness when staying with Drogon is likely morning sickness and her diarrhea an abortion induced by the berries.
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There is a lot of wrong or far less than certain there.
Rickon and Bran are different people.
Azor Ahai reborn is not necessarily PwwP nor is there particularly compelling evidence that lightbringer is a sword as opposed to multiple other possible mediums (dragons, dragonfire, or the nights watch being the popular ideas).
Lots of things have pointed to Melisandre being very wrong about Stannis and when we finally get into her head in 5 we only got more evidence for it with her increasing uncertainties and confusion about what she is seeing in her fires vs. what she expects to see and wants to see.
There is more than a little bit of proven magic related to the old ways as well as to this great other, and potentially even the drowned god/storm god. Among the religions to receive any particular attention the only religions that follow the footsteps of real religions with regard to just being a matter of social tradition are the faith of the seven and the Dothraki mythology.
As for how the seven came to be popular in most of Westeros, it is a straight allegory of dark ages christianity (catholicism in particular). From a...fictoanthropological? standpoint it doesn't seem entirely reasonable that such a similar to real world faith based religion would be successful in a world with clear and observable magic supporting other traditions, but it is what it is.
Edit: +1 to Dany might not be barren anymore. Assuming MMD's statement was a prophecy and not just a fancy way of saying it will never happen then it might have been fulfilled. Furthermore, the whole thing with the onset of her menstruation and prophecy related dreams after visiting Dragonstone B seemed rather likely to be more than random filler.
Edit 2: Is that asoaif FAQ as brazen a plagiarization of the tower of the hand as it looks like or is it the same 'Maester Luwin' alias as Chris Holden of the tower of the hand?
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Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes.
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If he is a Blackfyre then he is not Rhaegar's and is indeed Faegon. The idea that he is a Blackfyre is little more than just explaining why he has the legit appearance of a dragonlord if it is Faegon.
House Blackfyre branched from the Targaryens generations before Aerys and Rhaella. The dwarf (child of the forest) woods witch told Egg (Aegon V, Dany's great grandfather, Aemon's brother) that the PwwP would be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella. She is the other relatively reliable source of prophetic information aside from Quaithe so it seems reasonable give that prediction some credit.
If he is the real one then Varys had him switched. Not something that would be hard to Varys to do. The harder part is nobody knowing. Nobody could recognize the baby that was allegedly Aegon one way or the other, which is the one point of questionable convenience for Varys if that is how things went. He could hardly have planned for it and it's rather hard to picture him conspiring with Gregor Clegane to intentionally orchestrate it.
If he is not the real Aegon or otherwise not PwwP that doesn't really mean much regarding Rhaegar. He'll have to get in line behind all the other people to have assumed wrongly about a prophecy, which he might have had to do anyway. We already pretty well know Rhaegar was at least partially wrong because he seemed to think his daughter was a head too. What he thought appears to be this: That PwwP was going to be three people symbolic of house Targaryen's three headed dragon heraldry, those three would be his children, and one of them needed to be the child of a Stark (or descended of the kings of the north, which is to say a Stark).
The biggest thing that seems to confuse some discussion is mixing up Azor, PwwP, and the three heads of the dragon. To what extent/if those overlap is unknown but there is a common assumption that they are synonymous. I do not think there is strong reason to discount even the "extreme" possibilities, ie that the three heads thing is false and just Rhaegar's idea while PwwP is Jon and Azor is Dany or that there is complete overlap and the three headed dragon of PwwP/Azor Ahai reincarnations are Lancel, Osmund and Moonboy.
The only close to sure one is that Dany is (an) Azor because there is not much arguing with or variably interpreting her waking of stone dragons.
Fine, discount the Cersei club.
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On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes.
Here's the two theories.
The Targaryen Theory
Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress.
The Blackfyre Theory
Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning.
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On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning.
yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go...
Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes.
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On July 02 2012 04:38 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning. yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go... Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes.
Well it's not only the mountain. Sure the mountain could be fooled, but they were shown to Robert, and possibly the court with him.
It's still completely possible that they were too bloody for them to actually be recognizable, but how could Varys know how they would die? They might as well have been hanged or something.
As far as I understood it, it was all a swift move by Tywin as soon as he was within the city gates with his army. It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information and quickly find a replacement child and replace Aegon before the mountain could reach him.
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Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning.
More evidence can be found in the prophecies, one referring to a "cloth dragon" and another to a "mummer's dragon".
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On July 02 2012 05:20 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 04:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning. yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go... Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes. Well it's not only the mountain. Sure the mountain could be fooled, but they were shown to Robert, and possibly the court with him. It's still completely possible that they were too bloody for them to actually be recognizable, but how could Varys know how they would die? They might as well have been hanged or something. As far as I understood it, it was all a swift move by Tywin as soon as he was within the city gates with his army. It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information and quickly find a replacement child and replace Aegon before the mountain could reach him.
From what I remember they described the mountain bashing the kids face against the wall, I don't think anyone's going to recognize him after that.
"It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information." From what I hear Varys is pretty good at getting a hold of information.
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On July 02 2012 05:20 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 04:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning. yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go... Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes. Well it's not only the mountain. Sure the mountain could be fooled, but they were shown to Robert, and possibly the court with him. It's still completely possible that they were too bloody for them to actually be recognizable, but how could Varys know how they would die? They might as well have been hanged or something. As far as I understood it, it was all a swift move by Tywin as soon as he was within the city gates with his army. It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information and quickly find a replacement child and replace Aegon before the mountain could reach him.
well that's why they would need a very convincing body double...
which is why they used Ashara Dayne's child
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On July 02 2012 06:59 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 05:20 Euronyme wrote:On July 02 2012 04:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning. yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go... Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes. Well it's not only the mountain. Sure the mountain could be fooled, but they were shown to Robert, and possibly the court with him. It's still completely possible that they were too bloody for them to actually be recognizable, but how could Varys know how they would die? They might as well have been hanged or something. As far as I understood it, it was all a swift move by Tywin as soon as he was within the city gates with his army. It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information and quickly find a replacement child and replace Aegon before the mountain could reach him. From what I remember they described the mountain bashing the kids face against the wall, I don't think anyone's going to recognize him after that. "It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information." From what I hear Varys is pretty good at getting a hold of information.
Oh of course. Varys knew ahead of time that the mountain would smack Aegon's head in the wall, even though no one ever mentions it and Tywin never gave specific orders about it.
Tywin even never gave any orders about Elia so she might very well have survived the attack. He just said 'kill the children'.
On July 02 2012 07:21 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 05:20 Euronyme wrote:On July 02 2012 04:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On July 02 2012 04:21 Tewks44 wrote:On July 01 2012 18:30 Euronyme wrote:
Oh gosh there's Rickon.. I completely forgot about that little bugger and merged him with Bran. Right ok, well then that's settled. Haha a bit embarrassing ^^
@1ntrigue I dunno about Dany not being barren though. The prophecy goes like this:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
with 'he' obviously being Drogo. Well maybe. He didn't really 'return' though. It was rather her coming to him.
I haven't slept tonight, as I made a poor choice of drinking a big cup of coffee when I came home from the pub at 4 AM, so I'll have to blame that for being slow as a cucumber.
Could anyone be so kind and explain the whole Aegon situation? I can't really grasp the implications. If he's a Blackfyre.. Well so what. I guess it messes up that Rhaegar thought that his son was PwwP, but didn't he take that back later and said that someone else was PwwP? I strictly recall there being something about that.
Edit. It also seems really weird that Tywin and The Mountain would not have killed the real Aegon. Is that ever explained in the book? I can't recall, and can't seem to find it either.
Edit2. Just found in the wiki. Apparently Gregor Clegaine, Tywin and Robert mistook a peasant child for Aegon. Uh.
This sounds highly unlikely as they all have white hair and purple eyes. Here's the two theories. The Targaryen Theory Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing by Varys and Illyrio, and was probably looked after by Illyrio while he was a toddler, and when he was old enough he went off with Connington and that whole bunch with died blue hair to disguise his true identity. The Mountain is just a big stupid brute, so it's understandable that he made this mistake. Also, in GRRM's book having pale hair and violet eyes is uncommon, but not extremely uncommon, asthe Daynes had these traits. And holy shit, it just hit me that it's entirely possible Ashara Dayne's child was used as the substitute which could explain why she killed herself. Anyway, I digress. The Blackfyre Theory Varys and Illyrio came across a blackfyre heir, and concocted this story that he was a real Targaryen to get support in Westoros. Some evidence is the story about the iron dragon (black) disappearing in the water and washing up red with rust. The analogy is a Blackfyre (black dragon sigil) went across the narrow sea, and comes back masquerading as a Targaryen (red dragon sigil). Also it's never fully explained how they got the full backing of the Golden Company, and when considering the Golden Company was founded by a Blackfyre and aims to put a Blackfyre on the iron throne, it's possible this is the reasoning. yeah, i remember when reading he has violet eyes i was like WTF!! but then nothing ever happened with him so i just kinda let him go... Also, Aegon could have been easily switched, you cant really tell about a baby if he has deep blue or violet eyes or the little hair he has is white or blond or even light brown (or Varys just shaved him). And it s not likely the Mountain knelled down to examine the children. If you read the Dunk and Egg stories, + Show Spoiler +Aegon also roams the kingdoms with the hedge-knight with shaved head, and nobody notices his eyes. Well it's not only the mountain. Sure the mountain could be fooled, but they were shown to Robert, and possibly the court with him. It's still completely possible that they were too bloody for them to actually be recognizable, but how could Varys know how they would die? They might as well have been hanged or something. As far as I understood it, it was all a swift move by Tywin as soon as he was within the city gates with his army. It's hard to imagine that Varys would get a hold of this information and quickly find a replacement child and replace Aegon before the mountain could reach him. well that's why they would need a very convincing body double... which is why they used Ashara Dayne's child
Wouldn't the maids, the guards outside and Elia react to the fact that Varys or one of his men are trotting in with a stolen toddler in his arms and replaces Aegon with him? Let's remember that Elia was a hostage of an extremely paranoid Aerys to ensure the loyalty of Dorne. It's of course possible that Varys knew about some hidden passageway straight into the chamber where Aegon laid in his cot.
It seems quite strange that Ashara would give up her first born, only son to act as a meat shield doppelganger for Aegon. Ashara was of quite a noble family with her brother being the finest warrior in the kings guard and all. It's not like they can just take the child without her consent. At the very least we ought to have heard of a kidnapping.
Why is the golden company loyal to Aegon? They were sworn to the Blackfyres and enemies of the Targaryens.
Varys mentions that he wants to see 'Aegon' on the throne, but doesn't mention Daenarys iirc. These two things are hinting that Aegon is no true Targaryen.
I agree that there's something fishy about this child of Ashara though. We know it's not Jon Snow, but we do know that she must've been pregnant and given birth to a child sometime during the war. Barristan Selmy claims that it was in fact a stillborn daughter thoug, but his information came from Asharas brother in the kings guard who might not have known the truth himself. Is it possible that Aegon is even just the son of Ashara?
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On July 02 2012 10:08 Euronyme wrote:
Is it possible that Aegon is even just the son of Ashara?
That is another possibility, yes. I'd rank it higher than her baby being the stand-in used to protect real Aegon because it is more reasonable that she might have been coerced to allow it to happen or another member of her family or Varys himself (maybe posing as someone else) forced it on her. Still lower than ideas that do not involve her at all though, purely as a matter of razor simplicity.
In favor of such theories about Varys being able to pull off a switch, keep in mind he is a pretty damn good master of whispers and he had apparently known that letting Tywin into the city was a bad idea. It's reasonable that he'd have enacted his own plan to help save the Targaryen line while being in accordance with his own goals (if those are indeed not simply the goals of Targaryen loyalty).
As for the golden company, their support is perhaps a suggestion that he is a Blackfyre but only very weakly. The Blackfyre male line died out in the war of the ninepenny kings so they'd have adjusted into a goal of simply getting themselves back to their old holdings on Westeros without the part about also placing a Blackfyre on the throne. That would be why they briefly entertained the notion of supporting Viserys. As Illyrio put it, at this point what does it matter if the dragon is black or red? They have no reason to not see things that way as well at this point.
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On July 02 2012 12:35 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 10:08 Euronyme wrote:
Is it possible that Aegon is even just the son of Ashara? That is another possibility, yes. I'd rank it higher than her baby being the stand-in used to protect real Aegon because it is more reasonable that she might have been coerced to allow it to happen or another member of her family or Varys himself (maybe posing as someone else) forced it on her. Still lower than ideas that do not involve her at all though, purely as a matter of razor simplicity. In favor of such theories about Varys being able to pull off a switch, keep in mind he is a pretty damn good master of whispers and he had apparently known that letting Tywin into the city was a bad idea. It's reasonable that he'd have enacted his own plan to help save the Targaryen line while being in accordance with his own goals (if those are indeed not simply the goals of Targaryen loyalty). As for the golden company, their support is perhaps a suggestion that he is a Blackfyre but only very weakly. The Blackfyre male line died out in the war of the ninepenny kings so they'd have adjusted into a goal of simply getting themselves back to their old holdings on Westeros without the part about also placing a Blackfyre on the throne. That would be why they briefly entertained the notion of supporting Viserys. As Illyrio put it, at this point what does it matter if the dragon is black or red? They have no reason to not see things that way as well at this point.
yeah, and actually Blackfyres are true Targaryens, they were recognized bastards of the king, from noble ladies. If Jon is indeed a Targ he's also a bastard and not even a recognized one.
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No, Blackfyres are not true Targaryens under their equivalent to a legal system. That might have been what the 'law' recorded had they won the rebellions, but they did not. There is legitimized and then there is legitimized as a proper heir. They were the former. The great bastards were legitimized and so allowed to each create their own noble line/heraldry etc. They were not even all Blackfyres, the Blackfyres are the house created by Daemon. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both did their own thing and don't seem to have had children.
Robb (probably/seems to have) legitimized Jon as an heir to house Stark and other forces are set to want to legitimize him. He might not be a bastard Targaryen depending on what all Rhaegar and Lyanna got around to doing. Targaryens were not held to monogamy. It seems there might be some kind of evidence/record detailing things hidden in Lyanna's tomb and/or known by Wylla and Howland Reed. Bloodraven at least says that Jon is King, for whatever that is worth (which might be a hell of a lot since he is one of ~2.5 seemingly omniscient characters).
What happens regarding Jon's standing in house Stark gets weird if he is accepted as a Targaryen. Northern traditions about the rights of women to hold or conduct claims to their children can give him some leeway, but he'd be well behind his cousins. On the other hand, if things come together at Winterfell soon then everyone is liable to think all his cousins are dead and make a decision accordingly. The legitimacy Robb gave him could be a deciding factor, iff the letter arrives. The argument could also be made that it (Jon turning out to be son of R+L) would invalidate what Robb did because Jon is not what Robb thought when he legitimized him but it seems unlikely that anyone is going to be around to take that stance unless Davos shows up with Rickon.
This is the type of thing the supreme court would have to be the ones to decide in our system. We'll just have to see what GRRM has the characters and factions decide to do. In any case my money is on what whoever is in power decides they want to see rather than the rambling arguments of maesters and priests (and readers trying to work it out).
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On July 02 2012 19:06 Irrelevant Label wrote:
No, Blackfyres are not true Targaryens under their equivalent to a legal system. That might have been what the 'law' recorded had they won the rebellions, but they did not. There is legitimized and then there is legitimized as a proper heir. They were the former. The great bastards were legitimized and so allowed to each create their own noble line/heraldry etc. They were not even all Blackfyres, the Blackfyres are the house created by Daemon. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both did their own thing and don't seem to have had children.
Robb (probably/seems to have) legitimized Jon as an heir to house Stark and other forces are set to want to legitimize him. He might not be a bastard Targaryen depending on what all Rhaegar and Lyanna got around to doing. Targaryens were not held to monogamy. It seems there might be some kind of evidence/record detailing things hidden in Lyanna's tomb and/or known by Wylla and Howland Reed. Bloodraven at least says that Jon is King, for whatever that is worth (which might be a hell of a lot since he is one of ~2.5 seemingly omniscient characters).
What happens regarding Jon's standing in house Stark gets weird if he is accepted as a Targaryen. Northern traditions about the rights of women to hold or conduct claims to their children can give him some leeway, but he'd be well behind his cousins. On the other hand, if things come together at Winterfell soon then everyone is liable to think all his cousins are dead and make a decision accordingly. The legitimacy Robb gave him could be a deciding factor, iff the letter arrives. The argument could also be made that it (Jon turning out to be son of R+L) would invalidate what Robb did because Jon is not what Robb thought when he legitimized him but it seems unlikely that anyone is going to be around to take that stance unless Davos shows up with Rickon.
This is the type of thing the supreme court would have to be the ones to decide in our system. We'll just have to see what GRRM has the characters and factions decide to do. In any case my money is on what whoever is in power decides they want to see rather than the rambling arguments of maesters and priests (and readers trying to work it out).
I think the evidence of him being a Targaryen/ Stark bastard is too overwhelming for him to be anything else really. This is the link for what it's based on in case you haven't read it http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html
Robb actually legitimizes Jon and names him heir though, so he's actually not behind his cousins.
I don't see Jon being R+L ever being public knowledge really. Or not in a way that would threaten his claim anyway.
The supreme court would not have decided this in medieval times, which is kind of relevant. What does decide it is who's in charge of the North. Power > claim every day of the week. Robert ruled Westeros with a shit claim.
There's a good chance Stannis would give the North to Jon. Especially if the letter is actually delivered.
If Dany fights the white walkers with her dragons, which seems to be her destiny with the whole Azor Ahai business then it's also likely that the North falls into Jon's hands one way or another. I'm sure Dany's dragons will react to him being a Targaryen.
On July 02 2012 12:35 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 10:08 Euronyme wrote:
Is it possible that Aegon is even just the son of Ashara? That is another possibility, yes. I'd rank it higher than her baby being the stand-in used to protect real Aegon because it is more reasonable that she might have been coerced to allow it to happen or another member of her family or Varys himself (maybe posing as someone else) forced it on her. Still lower than ideas that do not involve her at all though, purely as a matter of razor simplicity. In favor of such theories about Varys being able to pull off a switch, keep in mind he is a pretty damn good master of whispers and he had apparently known that letting Tywin into the city was a bad idea. It's reasonable that he'd have enacted his own plan to help save the Targaryen line while being in accordance with his own goals (if those are indeed not simply the goals of Targaryen loyalty). As for the golden company, their support is perhaps a suggestion that he is a Blackfyre but only very weakly. The Blackfyre male line died out in the war of the ninepenny kings so they'd have adjusted into a goal of simply getting themselves back to their old holdings on Westeros without the part about also placing a Blackfyre on the throne. That would be why they briefly entertained the notion of supporting Viserys. As Illyrio put it, at this point what does it matter if the dragon is black or red? They have no reason to not see things that way as well at this point.
I dunno. There are mentions too of a 'mummer's dragon' and things like that in the house of the undying. I just can't help feeling that there's something fishy about this Aegon fellow. It seems a bit too tidy that he just shows up like this.
Varys must've been fairly recently named that master of whispers as well. I'm not sure how powerful he was really.
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I just want to touch on one point. The rest of it is all fairly well beaten the death at this point and is just going in circles of reiteration and miscommunication.
Jon very nearly cannot be a bastard. It is just the default assumption because he is one in Ned's cover story and people forget that Targaryens had no qualms with polygamy.
Three members of the kingsguard, including the lord commander, would not have have been off guarding the crown prince's concubine while the king, line of succession, and rest of the royal family were all in mortal danger. Nor would they have stood their ground to prevent a concubine's rescue by her own brother after the royal family had been, to their knowledge, annihilated. Ned even tried to get them to stand down by informing them of Darry's escape with Rhaella and Viserys. Get them to drop their seemingly stupid mission and do their real duty elsewhere. They didn't know. They could only have been protecting, at minimum, the royal family. In all likelyhood though, something that represented the line of succession directly.
Might Rhaegar have ordered them there without the assignment representing the protection of the royal family? From a could standpoint, only maybe. Between the kingsguard themselves and Varys there is no way it would have been without Aerys' knowledge and therefore approval and a paranoid man does not lend out his protection idly. Such an order would be so entirely contrary to the tenets of the kingsguard that they would surely protest and require the direct order from the king even. From a would standpoint, no way in hell. As the tower of the hand puts it, by all counts Rhaegar was a reasonable and upstanding citizen type. A guy who fights honorably, valiantly, and nobly to a fault and dies for it. Why would he do something so mind-bogglingly absurd and, to step back to the previous layer, how would he get them to go along with something so mind-bogglingly absurd?
Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That is what I was more cautiously saying when I mentioned Targaryens not being held to monogamy and Jon possibly not being a bastard Targaryen.
Jon would also have to be legitimate to be before Dany, as our near omniscient Bloodraven implied by calling him King. If he was a bastard it would be rather astoundingly out of character for Bloodraven of all people to be calling him King.
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On July 03 2012 01:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:
I just want to touch on one point. The rest of it is all fairly well beaten the death at this point and is just going in circles of reiteration and miscommunication.
Jon very nearly cannot be a bastard. It is just the default assumption because he is one in Ned's cover story and people forget that Targaryens had no qualms with polygamy.
Three members of the kingsguard, including the lord commander, would not have have been off guarding the crown prince's concubine while the king, line of succession, and rest of the royal family were all in mortal danger. Nor would they have stood their ground to prevent a concubine's rescue by her own brother after the royal family had been, to their knowledge, annihilated. Ned even tried to get them to stand down by informing them of Darry's escape with Rhaella and Viserys. Get them to drop their seemingly stupid mission and do their real duty elsewhere. They didn't know. They could only have been protecting, at minimum, the royal family. In all likelyhood though, something that represented the line of succession directly.
Might Rhaegar have ordered them there without the assignment representing the protection of the royal family? From a could standpoint, only maybe. Between the kingsguard themselves and Varys there is no way it would have been without Aerys' knowledge and therefore approval and a paranoid man does not lend out his protection idly. Such an order would be so entirely contrary to the tenets of the kingsguard that they would surely protest and require the direct order from the king even. From a would standpoint, no way in hell. As the tower of the hand puts it, by all counts Rhaegar was a reasonable and upstanding citizen type. A guy who fights honorably, valiantly, and nobly to a fault and dies for it. Why would he do something so mind-bogglingly absurd and, to step back to the previous layer, how would he get them to go along with something so mind-bogglingly absurd?
Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That is what I was more cautiously saying when I mentioned Targaryens not being held to monogamy and Jon possibly not being a bastard Targaryen.
Jon would also have to be legitimate to be before Dany, as our near omniscient Bloodraven implied by calling him King. If he was a bastard it would be rather astoundingly out of character for Bloodraven of all people to be calling him King.
makes sense. Though the kingsguard part not so much, they are sworn to obey, even if the king/prince gives a stupid command, or even if he's flat out mad/insane. Arthur Dayne especially wont forego Rhaegar's request, whatever that might be
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EPT
