EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 169
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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0x64
Finland4601 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:11 moopie wrote: Pate wasn't killed just for the key, but so that Jaqen (or whichever other faceless man) could assume his identity, infiltrate the Citadel and get close to the Maesters. We're not sure what he's looking for, but being Pate allowed him access to Sam and Marwyn. Its safe to assume that he's there for some sort of knowledge, not a straight up assassination, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with Pate imo. I thought the faceless men were pretty strict their ethics in whom to kill? Do the faceless men actually infiltrate? Besides that.. Come to think of it. Pycell just recently got murdered, and there's (probably) a faceless man taking faces in the Old Town maester college. It would seem likely that their employer is the Iron Bank of Braavos. It sucks that we only got two chapters of Arya in the entire fifth book. I'd like to know more about the faceless organization. | ||
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scudst0rm
Canada1149 Posts
On July 11 2012 07:27 Euronyme wrote: I thought the faceless men were pretty strict their ethics in whom to kill? Do the faceless men actually infiltrate? Besides that.. Come to think of it. Pycell just recently got murdered, and there's (probably) a faceless man taking faces in the Old Town maester college. It would seem likely that their employer is the Iron Bank of Braavos. It sucks that we only got two chapters of Arya in the entire fifth book. I'd like to know more about the faceless organization. How does Jaqen killing 3 random people for Arya fit with the ethics of the faceless men. Who is to say that The Kindly Man and Jaqen follow the same set of ethical principles. Who's to say that they are working towards the same end. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On July 11 2012 07:27 Euronyme wrote: I thought the faceless men were pretty strict their ethics in whom to kill? Do the faceless men actually infiltrate? Besides that.. Come to think of it. Pycell just recently got murdered, and there's (probably) a faceless man taking faces in the Old Town maester college. It would seem likely that their employer is the Iron Bank of Braavos. It sucks that we only got two chapters of Arya in the entire fifth book. I'd like to know more about the faceless organization. ? Pycelle was murdered by Varys. Unless you're suggesting that Varys is a Faceless Man. Agreed though that the Faceless Men are probably being heavily incentivized by the Iron Bank to wreak havoc in Westeros. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 11 2012 07:46 scudst0rm wrote: How does Jaqen killing 3 random people for Arya fit with the ethics of the faceless men. Who is to say that The Kindly Man and Jaqen follow the same set of ethical principles. Who's to say that they are working towards the same end. They serve a God. Jaqen says 'you saved three lives, so you owe the God three lives. Speak 3 names [...]' or something like that. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than that you can go there and pay them. What the kindly man said to Arya was that people went there and payed with what they held most dear (sometimes their very own lives) to have someone else killed. On July 11 2012 08:00 ZasZ. wrote: ? Pycelle was murdered by Varys. Unless you're suggesting that Varys is a Faceless Man. Agreed though that the Faceless Men are probably being heavily incentivized by the Iron Bank to wreak havoc in Westeros. Uh.. Are you assuming that the Iron Bank of Braavos only employs faceless men, or what? In my little theory Pycell was killed by Varys on the incentive of the Iron Bank. It would fall into his own goals, which is to destabilize the throne so that the Targs can take over. The royal family will need a new arch maester, and there's a faceless man with a maester's face in Old Town ready to take the face of the person who gets picked and go kill Tommen and Cercei basically, which would fall in line with the prophecy and the wishes of the Iron Bank. It would be a typical GRRM that the rich family gets all fucked up by a forgotten debt. The iron bank and the faceless men share city, so the faceless are probably used fairly frequently by the iron bank. Kind of far fetched but possible. Edit. Oh I was really tired when I wrote the last post. It's very cryptic, but this is what I meant ^^ | ||
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otgomni
United States33 Posts
On July 11 2012 14:06 Euronyme wrote: They serve a God. Jaqen says 'you saved three lives, so you owe the God three lives. Speak 3 names [...]' or something like that. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than that you can go there and pay them. What the kindly man said to Arya was that people went there and payed with what they held most dear (sometimes their very own lives) to have someone else killed. Uh.. Are you assuming that the Iron Bank of Braavos only employs faceless men, or what? In my little theory Pycell was killed by Varys on the incentive of the Iron Bank. It would fall into his own goals, which is to destabilize the throne so that the Targs can take over. The royal family will need a new arch maester, and there's a faceless man with a maester's face in Old Town ready to take the face of the person who gets picked and go kill Tommen and Cercei basically, which would fall in line with the prophecy and the wishes of the Iron Bank. It would be a typical GRRM that the rich family gets all fucked up by a forgotten debt. The iron bank and the faceless men share city, so the faceless are probably used fairly frequently by the iron bank. Kind of far fetched but possible. My own theory is that the FM are looking for a way to kill OR control the dragons, therefore NOT on Dany's side. Throughout the books, we learn a few things about who the FM are and where they come from: slaves of Old Valaria (sp) who began giving the "gift" to each other to ease the pain and suffering at the hands of firewyrms, dragons, molten events, and the like. Overtime the FM overthrew their overlords and grew a utter hate of dragons. From what we know about the FM, and what GRRM has revealed to us thus far, everything that they do is intentional. When we first meet Jaqen, we see him in a cage heading to the Wall. Unless he was suddenly planning to spring out and head to Oldtown and eventually the Citadel, the Wall was his principle destination. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) Lannister forces overtook the caravan and took the prisoners to Harrenhal, where Jaqen took on a new identity of a soldier and suddenly departed for Oldtown, where he took Pate's identity etc etc. Now, throughout the books we also learn of two books that are primarily about dragons (consequently the only two books in existence about this subject). Where are these two books? One is at the Citadel, and the other is at the Wall. Had Jaqen made it to the Wall, I assume he would have assassinated Sam or another crow to learn more about these books and how to deal with dragons. Instead, the Lannisters "freed" him, which really only gave him a new destination - the Citadel. I am also of the opinion that Victarion had Balon Greyjoy killed by a FM who was paid with a dragon egg (which further complicates the suggested FM's plot). Of course, that requires much more explanation that I can go into if you like. Be sure to check out /r/asoiaf for more reading on these topics! | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 11 2012 14:20 otgomni wrote: My own theory is that the FM are looking for a way to kill OR control the dragons, therefore NOT on Dany's side. Throughout the books, we learn a few things about who the FM are and where they come from: slaves of Old Valaria (sp) who began giving the "gift" to each other to ease the pain and suffering at the hands of firewyrms, dragons, molten events, and the like. Overtime the FM overthrew their overlords and grew a utter hate of dragons. From what we know about the FM, and what GRRM has revealed to us thus far, everything that they do is intentional. When we first meet Jaqen, we see him in a cage heading to the Wall. Unless he was suddenly planning to spring out and head to Oldtown and eventually the Citadel, the Wall was his principle destination. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) Lannister forces overtook the caravan and took the prisoners to Harrenhal, where Jaqen took on a new identity of a soldier and suddenly departed for Oldtown, where he took Pate's identity etc etc. Now, throughout the books we also learn of two books that are primarily about dragons (consequently the only two books in existence about this subject). Where are these two books? One is at the Citadel, and the other is at the Wall. Had Jaqen made it to the Wall, I assume he would have assassinated Sam or another crow to learn more about these books and how to deal with dragons. Instead, the Lannisters "freed" him, which really only gave him a new destination - the Citadel. I am also of the opinion that Victarion had Balon Greyjoy killed by a FM who was paid with a dragon egg (which further complicates the suggested FM's plot). Of course, that requires much more explanation that I can go into if you like. Be sure to check out /r/asoiaf for more reading on these topics! The FMs don't have any personal problems with the Valyrians though. I assume that FM is not a family business, but the other FMs probably care as little about revenge for what happened in Valyria as Arya does. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
That might be what had Jaqen going north, but I doubt we will ever know. What Jaqen had been doing previously is all a bit curious and unlikely to ever be answered. The whole topic has nothing to go on but reader assumptions based on knowing a few of the player's motivations. We know next to nothing and it's entirely possible to 'support', however weakly, many dramatically opposed ideas. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On July 11 2012 14:20 otgomni wrote: My own theory is that the FM are looking for a way to kill OR control the dragons, therefore NOT on Dany's side. Throughout the books, we learn a few things about who the FM are and where they come from: slaves of Old Valaria (sp) who began giving the "gift" to each other to ease the pain and suffering at the hands of firewyrms, dragons, molten events, and the like. Overtime the FM overthrew their overlords and grew a utter hate of dragons. From what we know about the FM, and what GRRM has revealed to us thus far, everything that they do is intentional. When we first meet Jaqen, we see him in a cage heading to the Wall. Unless he was suddenly planning to spring out and head to Oldtown and eventually the Citadel, the Wall was his principle destination. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) Lannister forces overtook the caravan and took the prisoners to Harrenhal, where Jaqen took on a new identity of a soldier and suddenly departed for Oldtown, where he took Pate's identity etc etc. Now, throughout the books we also learn of two books that are primarily about dragons (consequently the only two books in existence about this subject). Where are these two books? One is at the Citadel, and the other is at the Wall. Had Jaqen made it to the Wall, I assume he would have assassinated Sam or another crow to learn more about these books and how to deal with dragons. Instead, the Lannisters "freed" him, which really only gave him a new destination - the Citadel. I am also of the opinion that Victarion had Balon Greyjoy killed by a FM who was paid with a dragon egg (which further complicates the suggested FM's plot). Of course, that requires much more explanation that I can go into if you like. Be sure to check out /r/asoiaf for more reading on these topics! It's Euron, but yes, it's almost certain he had Balon assassinated, if the timely arrival from exile wouldnt be proof enough, we have the prophetic dream of the which "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung." | ||
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otgomni
United States33 Posts
On July 11 2012 19:38 Geo.Rion wrote: It's Euron, but yes, it's almost certain he had Balon assassinated, if the timely arrival from exile wouldnt be proof enough, we have the prophetic dream of the which "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung." On July 11 2012 17:38 Irrelevant Label wrote: *Euron had Balon killed by a faceless man, or so that theory goes. That might be what had Jaqen going north, but I doubt we will ever know. What Jaqen had been doing previously is all a bit curious and unlikely to ever be answered. The whole topic has nothing to go on but reader assumptions based on knowing a few of the player's motivations. We know next to nothing and it's entirely possible to 'support', however weakly, many dramatically opposed ideas. Thanks for the correction! And true, it's just fun to theorize about this stuff while we wait another... x years... for the next book to come out. I read somewhere he intends on making them ~1800 pages each, which would be faaaantastic (but I hope it doesn't turn into another ASOS/AFFC situation). | ||
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
GRRM hasn't given us much information about Oldtowns history and influence over Westeros either. When I think of Oldtown I always think of that skyhigh complex the warlock Saruman in Lord of the Rings lives in. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 13 2012 02:00 InDaHouse wrote: I am really curious what Oldtown and their Maesters will do and how they will react when they learn about the big threat coming upon Westeros from the North (White walkers). GRRM hasn't given us much information about Oldtowns history and influence over Westeros either. When I think of Oldtown I always think of that skyhigh complex the warlock Saruman in Lord of the Rings lives in. I'm thinking more of kind of a hobbiton or whatever the hobbit city was called in lotr. Everything is made of bricks, and it's all cosy with trees and stuff. That's kind of my general view of the Reach as well. Seems like a nice place to be. I kind of think of the maester's college as the Unseen University from Terry Pratchett's books if you've read them. I think they're a strong regional power a long with the Arbor in the Reach. Kind of like the Manderleys in the North. | ||
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MrMercuG
Netherlands2389 Posts
On July 13 2012 03:10 Euronyme wrote: I'm thinking more of kind of a hobbiton or whatever the hobbit city was called in lotr. Everything is made of bricks, and it's all cosy with trees and stuff. That's kind of my general view of the Reach as well. Seems like a nice place to be. I kind of think of the maester's college as the Unseen University from Terry Pratchett's books if you've read them. I think they're a strong regional power a long with the Arbor in the Reach. Kind of like the Manderleys in the North. The Shire? :p | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
I had to google it now actually. OK so Hobbiton is the local area of where Bilbo and Frodo lives. It's kind of a suburb of The Shire I suppose. The Shire is what I meant though I guess. Or rather the feel of it. Like it's pretty homey place so to speak. | ||
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Attican
Denmark531 Posts
On July 13 2012 03:21 Euronyme wrote: I had to google it now actually. OK so Hobbiton is the local area of where Bilbo and Frodo lives. It's kind of a suburb of The Shire I suppose. The Shire is what I meant though I guess. Or rather the feel of it. Like it's pretty homey place so to speak. To get technical, the Shire is the region the hobbits live in, Hobbiton is the town Frodo and all them live in. | ||
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
Edit: on second thought, the other two kings died by other hands, so it's just as like that someone else was directly responsible for Balon's death, rather than Melisandre doing the deed. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches. “Say the name,” Melisandre commanded. The leech was twisting in the king’s grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. “The usurper,” he said. “Joffrey Baratheon.” When he tossed the leech into the fire, it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals, and burned. Stannis grasped the second. “The usurper,” he declared, louder this time. “Balon Greyjoy.” He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking. The last was in the king’s hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. “The usurper,” he said at last. “Robb Stark.” And he threw it on the flames. edit: there's also the slight possiblity that Melisandre saw their deaths in the flame, but interpreted it as a possible outcome that required her to act with her little leech ceremony. After all, we know that Melisandre has the ability/gift to see certain future events in the flame, but she does have problems interpreting it and often misreads what she sees. So either she knew that it was a sham, but did it to increase Stannis' faith in her so that he keeps her close (which he did), or she sincerely believed that this little ceremony will make the events unfold. Either way, she needed to keep Stannis impressed by her abilities so he doesn't lose what little faith he has in her and R'hllor and can fulfill his destiny (or what destiny she believes he has). | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
The should sweep over the Seven Kingdoms and make an end to royalty, politics, intrigues, wars and all that stuff. Kill every Lannister, Tully, Tyrell, Baratheon, Stark, Frey and for the love of the Seven Gods, Bolton. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On July 16 2012 03:50 kafkaesque wrote: Man, I really hope book 7 ends with the wall falling and the Others cleaning up the entire mess in Westeros. The should sweep over the Seven Kingdoms and make an end to royalty, politics, intrigues, wars and all that stuff. Kill every Lannister, Tully, Tyrell, Baratheon, Stark, Frey and for the love of the Seven Gods, Bolton. Sounds like a pretty boring ending imo, but to each his own I suppose. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
What if Cold Hands is one of the old kings of Winterfell? It's mentioned like 38 times that some of the swords of the old tombs have rusted and that their spirits would walk if that ever happened (something along those lines). Also about the Cercei prophecy. I never thought about it before, as the focus has been so heavily on Tyrion, but it would seem twice as likely that Jame would be the one responsible for her death at this point. It's also one of those things that are written over and over and over how he's really bitter about her fucking Lancel and Kettleblack, and how he realizes she's a shit ruler. He'll probably suspect her for the death of Kevan and Pycell as well. | ||
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