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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On August 02 2012 12:11 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 16:56 moopie wrote:
In addition to Shireen I don't understand why they cast Orell at all. If anything they could have cast Varamyr Sixskins and even he isn't that important. Seems wasteful for minor characters to just take up screen time again. It forces the writers to leave more out of the main plots because of limited airtime. S2 already suffered from that. Not sure why they switched from Varamyr to Orell, but I imagine he'll just be a plot device to explain warging, either directly to Jon (which would be kinda stupid I guess) or by having someone else tell Jon about how great Orell is at warging. Also I'm pretty sure Edric Storm will still be in there, they haven't gone into Azor Ahai very much yet (did Saal even talk about it to Davos? I don't remember)
iirc a ctrl-f of the show's dialogue would not turn up any instances of Azor Ahai yet.
There might have been in the scene with the burning of the wooden statues of the seven.
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On August 01 2012 18:43 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 03:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:25 Offhand wrote:
Coldhands is dressed as a member of the Watch. He is likely a recently deceased Watchman (possibly Benjan) there hasn't been any indication that he has a history. The freed ghosts in Winterfell are likely causing the mysterious deaths when the Boltons occupy it, I doubt they're out beyond the wall.
I'm fairly certain the oath of the Night's Watch is what prevents the wights from becoming mindless zombies. At least that would explain how Sam/Gilly survived and why Bran was guided to the children of the forrest by a wight Night's Watchman. We haven't seen any wildling wights in controll of themselves yet. Other than that there's been a few allusions to power in the words throughout the book, such as when Jon/Sam say the words or when Jon leads the ranging out to the Godswood so the new recruits can recite it. I'm fairly sure that the first wights that Jon killed at Castle Black were Night's Watchmen. That would seem to go against the theory that there's something in the oath that protects the Night's Watch from becoming wights. BTW: I just finished the Dance with Dragons. Here's my official sum up of the last 5 chapters. "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu......" Thanks for reading. I come pretty much to the same conclusion... but at least the theorizing about, for instance, who could be Jon's father and chasing some minor hints like paranoid madmen to make up possible future outcomes is funy as well  And that being said, very well played Mr. Martin for making us your bitches!
I just finished the books too... I have such conflicting opinions right now. The series is so well written and so creative and unique, George R.R. Martin has created such a fascinating world with such interesting characters, I'm hopelessly addicted to it...
but the false deaths are KILLING ME. Such a gigantic floating turd in the punchbowl, in my eyes right now. I'm getting a little bit of the feeling I had when watching the Matrix movies, where the "rules" of how the world works are established... and then the rules are broken when convenient for the plot. When Trinity was dying, I no longer gave a shit because I assumed some magical rulebreaking nonsense would somehow save the day, then was actually surprised when there wasn't anyway. My thoughts were not on the plot of the movie, but instead on the ineptitude of the storywriting.
This series hasn't gotten that bad, but it's dangerously close. It seems like 3/4 of the primary characters have been killed so far, and the great majority of them have turned up alive afterwards, even one who was unquestionably killed completely dead without any doubt of the matter up for interpretation.
So how am I expected to care about the events at the end of ADWD when there's maybe a 10% chance they won't be undone later?
Anyway, I hate to be so negative about such an awesome series, but this one issue is marring something that's otherwise near-perfect and so damn entertaining.
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I guess they re-cast Beric cause Beric was in season 1 when Eddard sent him to bring the King's justice to Gregor. Also I don't really understand why they decided to delay the introduction of Jojen and Meera. I been watching the show with my roommate who has not read the books and I told him I couldn't believe they hadn't introduced those two characters considering how large a role they play in the Bran story line, but they spent plenty of time altering and focusing on Robb's relationship with Jeyne Westerling.
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On August 02 2012 14:53 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 18:43 Doublemint wrote:On July 21 2012 03:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:25 Offhand wrote:
Coldhands is dressed as a member of the Watch. He is likely a recently deceased Watchman (possibly Benjan) there hasn't been any indication that he has a history. The freed ghosts in Winterfell are likely causing the mysterious deaths when the Boltons occupy it, I doubt they're out beyond the wall.
I'm fairly certain the oath of the Night's Watch is what prevents the wights from becoming mindless zombies. At least that would explain how Sam/Gilly survived and why Bran was guided to the children of the forrest by a wight Night's Watchman. We haven't seen any wildling wights in controll of themselves yet. Other than that there's been a few allusions to power in the words throughout the book, such as when Jon/Sam say the words or when Jon leads the ranging out to the Godswood so the new recruits can recite it. I'm fairly sure that the first wights that Jon killed at Castle Black were Night's Watchmen. That would seem to go against the theory that there's something in the oath that protects the Night's Watch from becoming wights. BTW: I just finished the Dance with Dragons. Here's my official sum up of the last 5 chapters. "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu......" Thanks for reading. I come pretty much to the same conclusion... but at least the theorizing about, for instance, who could be Jon's father and chasing some minor hints like paranoid madmen to make up possible future outcomes is funy as well And that being said, very well played Mr. Martin for making us your bitches! I just finished the books too... I have such conflicting opinions right now. The series is so well written and so creative and unique, George R.R. Martin has created such a fascinating world with such interesting characters, I'm hopelessly addicted to it... but the false deaths are KILLING ME. Such a gigantic floating turd in the punchbowl, in my eyes right now. I'm getting a little bit of the feeling I had when watching the Matrix movies, where the "rules" of how the world works are established... and then the rules are broken when convenient for the plot. When Trinity was dying, I no longer gave a shit because I assumed some magical rulebreaking nonsense would somehow save the day, then was actually surprised when there wasn't anyway. My thoughts were not on the plot of the movie, but instead on the ineptitude of the storywriting. This series hasn't gotten that bad, but it's dangerously close. It seems like 3/4 of the primary characters have been killed so far, and the great majority of them have turned up alive afterwards, even one who was unquestionably killed completely dead without any doubt of the matter up for interpretation. So how am I expected to care about the events at the end of ADWD when there's maybe a 10% chance they won't be undone later? Anyway, I hate to be so negative about such an awesome series, but this one issue is marring something that's otherwise near-perfect and so damn entertaining.
Wot? Has anyone but Cat come up alive?
Big / semi big characters that've died:
Ned Stark
Robert Baratheon
Catelyn Tully
Renly Baratheon
The Hound
The Mountain
Joffrey Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tywin Lannister's brother (whatever his name was again)
Robb Stark
Balon Greyjoy
Drogo
Daeny's child
Hoster Tully
Walder Frey
Rodrik the master at arms of Winterfell who was Catelyn's companion on all her travels.
Brienne of Tarth
Tyrion's squire
Pycelle
Aemon Targaryen
Lot's of people of the night's watch, including its old lord commander.
Maester Luwin
Edit. Oh yeah the Martells as well. The fighting one and the proposing one. Can't remember their names right now.
Lots of people at Dany's side as well whom I can't remember the names of either.
Those are the ones I can think of on top of my head. So far the only dead who's come back is Cat, and she's basically a shambling husk of her former self. That's hardly a majority though is it?
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Is the Hound really dead? I thought he was also resurrected.
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The Hound didn't die. Podrick might not have died. Brienne didn't die. Dany's child hardly counts.
Point stands though, imo.
Cat is the only person to somewhat not die. It is very much not the same character.
ITT this is all actually about Jon and his situation.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I agree that people are overreacting over the whole false death thing, but it's not just Cat. And your list contains characters that haven't been confirmed as dead.
Gregor - Ser Robert Strong.
Sandor - Implied that he's still alive.
Brienne - Not confirmed that she's dead.
Jon - Very likely to come back in some form.
It's not that it doesn't make sense in the world GRRM has created (look at Beric), but he's leaving a lot of the characters' fates murky, so that he can bring them back later should he feel like it. Just makes their (supposed) deaths feel cheap somehow.
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If Robert Strong/Gregor 'counts' then every wight might as well and it should be said that GRRM very nearly never actually kills characters.
The only character to die and come back as the same person was Beric, and it was more or less past tense by the time we heard about it and he quickly died for real. Hardly meaningful.
Cat is the only still current and somewhat valid case.
Edit: though Jon is impending and does seem like a death-cheapening event.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Brienne is actually confirmed to be alive, she appeared near the end of DwD and led Jaime somewhere away from his army, possibly to the Brotherhood to be executed (?) Whichever word she shouted just before being hung apparently saved her life.
If Sandor isn't dead, he wasn't resurrected, merely taken care of in his fever.
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So is it confirmed that the giant knight who rescues Cersei is indeed Gregor Clegane?
How can you be certain, but for his height?
In fact, didn't the Prince of Dorne even get his cranium in an effort to appease him?
How do you ressurrect a person without a head?
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On August 02 2012 19:26 kafkaesque wrote:
So is it confirmed that the giant knight who rescues Cersei is indeed Gregor Clegane?
How can you be certain, but for his height?
In fact, didn't the Prince of Dorne even get his cranium in an effort to appease him?
How do you ressurrect a person without a head?
it was never clear it was the mountain's head. In fact I believe GRRM wrote it where it was kind of obvious that some sleight of hand was going on to calm the Dornish. I could be wrong it's been a few months since I read all the books.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On August 02 2012 19:26 kafkaesque wrote:
So is it confirmed that the giant knight who rescues Cersei is indeed Gregor Clegane?
How can you be certain, but for his height?
In fact, didn't the Prince of Dorne even get his cranium in an effort to appease him?
How do you ressurrect a person without a head?
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert_Strong/Theories
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Cersei let Qyburn have his way with Gregor making it very unclear whether or not Gregor actually died. Then Cersei specifically requests that Qyburn find someone worthy of defending her in a trial by battle to replace the opening in the king's guard left by the guy who died protecting Myrcella(forgot his name). This person ends up being Robert Strong who shows up being described in a way only Gregor has been before while also not speaking a word nor ever removing his helmet. All reasonable clues point to it being Gregor in some form.
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I do agree that Jon's death rang hollow, but I don't agree with the idea GRRM is making death in his books feel cheap. With the prologue of ADWD detailing specifically how a warg could cheat death it makes Jon's death feel trivial. I remember how I felt when Robb died and Jon's death felt nothing close. The moment I heard(audiobook) the lines detailing his death I immediately was already sure that he would not truly be dead. I don't think GRRM intends for the reader to feel the same way about Jon's death as they did Robb. The prologue told the story it did for a reason, just as in the prologue for AFFC was specifically told to give incite into Samwell's final chapter in that book. I think the prologue was very specifically made for Jon's last chapter.
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On August 02 2012 19:38 Downside wrote:
Cersei let Qyburn have his way with Gregor making it very unclear whether or not Gregor actually died. Then Cersei specifically requests that Qyburn find someone worthy of defending her in a trial by battle to replace the opening in the king's guard left by the guy who died protecting Myrcella(forgot his name). This person ends up being Robert Strong who shows up being described in a way only Gregor has been before while also not speaking a word nor ever removing his helmet. All reasonable clues point to it being Gregor in some form.
That and the fact that she forces Pycell to keep Gregor alive "by any means necessary".
On August 02 2012 19:47 Downside wrote:
I do agree that Jon's death rang hollow, but I don't agree with the idea GRRM is making death in his books feel cheap. With the prologue of ADWD detailing specifically how a warg could cheat death it makes Jon's death feel trivial. I remember how I felt when Robb died and Jon's death felt nothing close. The moment I heard(audiobook) the lines detailing his death I immediately was already sure that he would not truly be dead. I don't think GRRM intends for the reader to feel the same way about Jon's death as they did Robb. The prologue told the story it did for a reason, just as in the prologue for AFFC was specifically told to give incite into Samwell's final chapter in that book. I think the prologue was very specifically made for Jon's last chapter.
Very few POV characters have actually died and Jon is like, one of the biggest POVs in the series. Most people would probably be surprised if he stayed dead. Jon is a nascent warg (all Starks are it seems) who obviously doesn't have the same level of ability as Varimer or Bran, and no wildling warg has attempted to help him learn (he actively avoids that boar dude). I don't know if that would effect your ability to jump into another animal and live out it's life (although Jon is closer to his direwolf then everyone else except Bran and maybe Rikkun).
Also, Stannis is apparently alive, GRRM has said as much. Even though his cause still seems doomed.
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On August 02 2012 21:39 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 19:38 Downside wrote:
Cersei let Qyburn have his way with Gregor making it very unclear whether or not Gregor actually died. Then Cersei specifically requests that Qyburn find someone worthy of defending her in a trial by battle to replace the opening in the king's guard left by the guy who died protecting Myrcella(forgot his name). This person ends up being Robert Strong who shows up being described in a way only Gregor has been before while also not speaking a word nor ever removing his helmet. All reasonable clues point to it being Gregor in some form. That and the fact that she forces Pycell to keep Gregor alive "by any means necessary".
Iirc it was actually Tywin who did that, as he wanted to save face with the Dornish.
If the poison killed him, then Tywin's plans to give Gregor to Dorne as a way of apologizing for Elia would've been ruined.
On August 02 2012 18:48 Irrelevant Label wrote:
The Hound didn't die. Podrick might not have died. Brienne didn't die. Dany's child hardly counts.
Point stands though, imo.
Cat is the only person to somewhat not die. It is very much not the same character.
ITT this is all actually about Jon and his situation.
Sandor was killed according to the priest, and Brienne and Podrick were hanged. Dunno whether they'll be alive or not in the next book, but either could work really. It's just lack of information rather than resurrection.
The complaints about them are completely irrelevant regardless as we don't actually know what will happen in the next book and what explanations there are.
Anyway, there are no bent rules for the sole purpose of saving characters, which was what the discussion was about, apart from possibly Cat. It's hardly correct that a majority of dead characters got back through some loop hole.
The mountain is not the same person anymore, thus he's not resurrected or whatever. He's basically Frankenstein without a head.
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On the other hand - do we really know _for_sure_ that John is dead? Granted, 4 knives is like a lot to stomach () but Wun Wun is there and a lot of wildlings etc... I am rather puzzled about that myself ( and did not read anything on that particular event - yet)
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On August 02 2012 21:44 Euronyme wrote:
Sandor was killed according to the priest, and Brienne and Podrick were hanged. Dunno whether they'll be alive or not in the next book, but either could work really. It's just lack of information rather than resurrection.
The complaints about them are completely irrelevant regardless as we don't actually know what will happen in the next book and what explanations there are.
Brienne was cut free at the last second in that chapter (read it again, I missed it the first time too) so she could betray Jamie and (presumably) save Pod. Whether or not she actually turns in Jamie to zombie Catelyn remains to be seen. It's entirely possible they just run off together, there's been a lot of evidence pointing towards Brienne and Jamie falling in love.
On August 02 2012 21:51 Doublemint wrote:On the other hand - do we really know _for_sure_ that John is dead? Granted, 4 knives is like a lot to stomach ( ) but Wun Wun is there and a lot of wildlings etc... I am rather puzzled about that myself ( and did not read anything on that particular event - yet)
Jon "died" in the vicinity of a red priest. Not just an average red priest (because they all seem to have this ressurection power) but THE red preist. Mellisandre's own experiences looking into the fire towards the end of book 5 show her that Jon is far more important to the cause than Stannis, even though she refuses to believe Stannis isn't Azor Ahai.
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On August 02 2012 15:19 Downside wrote:
I guess they re-cast Beric cause Beric was in season 1 when Eddard sent him to bring the King's justice to Gregor. Also I don't really understand why they decided to delay the introduction of Jojen and Meera. I been watching the show with my roommate who has not read the books and I told him I couldn't believe they hadn't introduced those two characters considering how large a role they play in the Bran story line, but they spent plenty of time altering and focusing on Robb's relationship with Jeyne Westerling.
An interbiew said that there wuz too meny characters already in the show and that they justified cutting these two characters or rather a deferral to season 3 as the awdience wouldn't be able to kope with the characters being added.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Jon is not dead. I know GRRM has no qualms with killing off main characters, but he has been building Jon up so much as one of the main characters of the series, that permanently writing him off at this point makes no sense at all. Most likely he'll reside in Ghost for a while (supported by the very existence of ADwD's prologue), and then either return to his old body (fixed by Melisandre), or become a 'good wight' like Coldhands. I still firmly believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and he'll be the one to drive the winter back with his aunt, Daenerys' help. His will be the song of ice and fire.
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