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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On August 03 2012 10:05 Kyuukyuu wrote:GRRM confirmed recently that she said "sword". source
I am not certain why this was up for debate. She appears in a Jamie chapter in Dance to take him off to (i am assuming meet UnCat). The only way for that to happen would be for her to have said sword. As we had PoV chapters for her in feast we also knew it wasn't a simple "cover this situation from jaime pov that we did for brienne".
As for why Quentyn had a plot line had a purpose. It was to have the "deal" that was supposed to have been arranged for martell to marry Targareon via griff and arianne. As everyone thought griff was dead it was a hope to keep that alliance alive. It also served the purpose of removing him from the plot completely as typically power of a father would go to the oldest son before a daughter after the death of the father. This is something Quentyn would almost surely want. Now arianne is guarenteed to be the head of the martells + lets her freely honor the alliance of old by marrying griff. This also will not anger Dany as the targareon line will be able to live on this way as opposed to the childless union she and Quentyn would of had.
I think every plot line served some use in Dance, Some of it was to merely to close up plot points I believe.
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On August 06 2012 13:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:I am not certain why this was up for debate. She appears in a Jamie chapter in Dance to take him off to (i am assuming meet UnCat). The only way for that to happen would be for her to have said sword. As we had PoV chapters for her in feast we also knew it wasn't a simple "cover this situation from jaime pov that we did for brienne". As for why Quentyn had a plot line had a purpose. It was to have the "deal" that was supposed to have been arranged for martell to marry Targareon via griff and arianne. As everyone thought griff was dead it was a hope to keep that alliance alive. It also served the purpose of removing him from the plot completely as typically power of a father would go to the oldest son before a daughter after the death of the father. This is something Quentyn would almost surely want. Now arianne is guarenteed to be the head of the martells + lets her freely honor the alliance of old by marrying griff. This also will not anger Dany as the targareon line will be able to live on this way as opposed to the childless union she and Quentyn would of had. I think every plot line served some use in Dance, Some of it was to merely to close up plot points I believe.
It was a debate because it was not known until GRRM confirmed it there. Just because she was alive doesn't mean she saved herself with that word. That should be self evident, but some assumptions are subtle enough.
There was no need to kill Quentyn to make Arianne the heir to Sunspear. She already was.
On a similar note, even if Faegon isn't that doesn't make him the first Targaryen heir. Tyrion assumed as much on account of his own Andal cultural bias, but both Valyrian and Dornish custom do not skip over girls. Specifically, the final result of the Dance of Dragons with Aegon III as king validated Rheanra's claim over Aegon II to set the precedent for the Targaryen dynasty as keeping to it's Valyrian roots rather than adopting Andal ways. On the other hand the council that selected Aegon V did skip over a female option, though ostensibly because she was mentally handicapped. Without an assumption of skipping over girls and as Aerys II was the last king, not Rhaegar, it would go to his daughter rather than skipping a generation and going to his grandson.
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On August 06 2012 10:20 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 08:56 ZasZ. wrote:On August 06 2012 07:44 Kyuukyuu wrote:
The progress timeline was halted partially because GRRM couldn't figure out a way to get all these people to Meereen, and the order in which they would arrive. You had Tyrion, AegonGriff, Marwyn the mage, Victarion, and Quentyn, all journeying toward Dany - the "Meereenese knot" that GRRM had problems with while writing ADWD. I think that's why you have quite a lot of boring Dany chapters, because she does have to stay put while everyone arrives.
The main problem I had with ADWD was that Quentyn's storyline really served no purpose. His POV chapters, his arrival, his death, all would have had no impact on the story if they had happened. Not entirely true, otherwise how would the dragons have escaped? Sure, but making an entire long-winded character complete with his own POVs seems kind of unnecessary for something like that. I guess he also showed how loyal Dorne was to Targaryen rule, but that was sort of obvious anyway :/ edit: oh and also the whole sun's son Quaithe warning bit... I guess I just wish he could have done more things instead of introducing a bunch of new characters via his POVs, then sitting around in Dany's court doing not much, then dying because his plan was really dumb.  The thing that annoys me is that all the Martells, although said to be extremely intelligent, seem to suffer from plot induced stupidity that kill them on the spot. After Oberyn and Quentyn, I can't wait to see what stupidity awaits Doran to get him killed.
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On August 06 2012 16:15 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 10:20 Kyuukyuu wrote:On August 06 2012 08:56 ZasZ. wrote:On August 06 2012 07:44 Kyuukyuu wrote:
The progress timeline was halted partially because GRRM couldn't figure out a way to get all these people to Meereen, and the order in which they would arrive. You had Tyrion, AegonGriff, Marwyn the mage, Victarion, and Quentyn, all journeying toward Dany - the "Meereenese knot" that GRRM had problems with while writing ADWD. I think that's why you have quite a lot of boring Dany chapters, because she does have to stay put while everyone arrives.
The main problem I had with ADWD was that Quentyn's storyline really served no purpose. His POV chapters, his arrival, his death, all would have had no impact on the story if they had happened. Not entirely true, otherwise how would the dragons have escaped? Sure, but making an entire long-winded character complete with his own POVs seems kind of unnecessary for something like that. I guess he also showed how loyal Dorne was to Targaryen rule, but that was sort of obvious anyway :/ edit: oh and also the whole sun's son Quaithe warning bit... I guess I just wish he could have done more things instead of introducing a bunch of new characters via his POVs, then sitting around in Dany's court doing not much, then dying because his plan was really dumb. The thing that annoys me is that all the Martells, although said to be extremely intelligent, seem to suffer from plot induced stupidity that kill them on the spot. After Oberyn and Quentyn, I can't wait to see what stupidity awaits Doran to get him killed.
I feel the Martell's are supposed to be sly rather than intelligent. I guess that really didn't hold true for Quentyn though.
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The Martell's can't be type-casted. It's pretty evident that despite being brothers the Red Viper and Prince Doran were incredibly different.
I think Quentyn was in a pretty tough situation. Might as well try saddling up a dragon because why not?
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He probably could have done it if it wasn't for those meddling kids
aka that asshole with a crossbow
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well, those "assholes with crossbows" did the right thing to trust their instincts and save their own skin^^
also take in mind that the he was in fact not of the blood of the dragon, his severe burns or rather charcoaled corpse should be testimony enough for that assumption.
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On August 07 2012 01:17 Doublemint wrote:
well, those "assholes with crossbows" did the right thing to trust their instincts and save their own skin^^
also take in mind that the he was in fact not of the blood of the dragon, his severe burns or rather charcoaled corpse should be testimony enough for that assumption.
Not really, I mean Daenary's would be burnt to a crisp too if the dragons actually breathed their fire on her. I realize some people may consider her to be impervious to fire, but I don't think that's the case. Especially crazy hot dragon fire.
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not necessarily impervious to dragon fire but afair only her hair got scorched when she jumped into the pit and wanted to "tame" drogon who spit fire down there. that's a good indiciator, is it not?
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ah sry for that statement then - that's what you get for showing up late for the party...
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I just finished the books myself and of course it had to be that at the end of the last book everything's more of a mess than ever , thus the author leaving us impatiently waiting for the next books. Meh !!! When will that be released ? Any clues?
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On August 08 2012 21:33 Mondieu wrote:
I just finished the books myself and of course it had to be that at the end of the last book everything's more of a mess than ever , thus the author leaving us impatiently waiting for the next books. Meh !!! When will that be released ? Any clues?
Just be glad that you recently heard of the series rather than having read it during the gap between aFfC and aDwD
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On August 08 2012 21:33 Mondieu wrote:
I just finished the books myself and of course it had to be that at the end of the last book everything's more of a mess than ever , thus the author leaving us impatiently waiting for the next books. Meh !!! When will that be released ? Any clues?
GRRM has recently stated that he is aiming for 2014 but no promises. In the same interview he said that, he has 200 pages ready and 200 more pages written but yet to be revised. Considering that the book prob will be 1500~ pages long, we will have to wait quite a bit. Honestly 2014 is optimistic thinking.
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There was something about that discussion that already bugged me back when I read it, but I couldn't pinpoint why exactly I seemed to disagree and let it slip. Now I've read the books again and found why I was at least confused by the fact that she is vulnerable to fire, even though you're argument (especially the blisters part) seems perfectly fine.
What still confuses me is what is written three pages later:
The fire burned away my hair, but elseweise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit.
Even though the first part of the quote seems to refer to the funarel pire and the hatching of the dragons, the second part sounds as if she was at least somewhat caught by dragonfire and still not harmed.
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It could be a case of Sansa syndrome. The events did unfold fast in a chaotic manner, she could be misremembering it. For example, we have evidence that the events at the pit did more than simply burn her hair off again (cracked palms with fluid leaking out, burns, blisters) yet that line implies that she was completely fine after the events in the pit.
She either means she is fine in the sense that she didnt get charcoaled but instead only suffered burns, or she's delusional (my money is on the latter). I don't see that line as proof that she did in fact get hit by the flames when the narration during the scene unfolding said otherwise (and her clothes didn't burn off in the pits). She never actually got hit by the fire in the pits, but she might believe that she did.
edit: tze over at westeros.org said the following:
Show nested quote +She mentions earlier in the chapter she has blisters and her skin was pink and tender. I think it's pretty obvious that she's referring to not being burnt to a crisp rather than not being burned at all. Except that isn't what she says at all. She says of the pyre: "The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit." She doesn't claim amazement that the fire in the pit didn't burn her worse than it did, she claims the fire simply did not touch her, in the same way the fire of Drogo's pyre did not touch her. The fact that she's analogizing a magical event in which her clothes were completely burned away yet her skin was unburned, with an event in which her clothes are very explicitly still present and her hands are very explicitly burned, doesn't tell me that the latter event really was the same as the former event. It tells me that GRRM included these differences to show that the two events were different, and by having Dany tell herself that the two events were the same, that he meant to highlight the fact that Dany is making false analogies. That she's interpreting events in a way that allows her to preserve her beliefs in her own abilities, rather than as they actually were---which isn't something that seems likely to lead to positive results.
I think it is indeed a case where Dany believes (or wants to make herself believe) that she possesses greater abilities than she really does. Would go along with other documented cases of her family's mental stability.
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It's a trap. Between it not being clear on if the funeral pyre was a one time thing or not as a specific spell/ritual, the not entirely obvious distinction between the so called "furnace wind" pre-ignition exhale and real dragon firebreath, and the classic asoiaf trap of a reader believing what a character thinks/says it is easy to end up thinking she is immune to fire.
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HODOR WON THE GAME OF THRONES AT THE END OF BOOK 5!!!!
Did you guys check out the latest GRRM interview? He said that he knows who will be the POV of the epilogue in forthcoming A Spring of Dream book. Wow.
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80-year-old Tyrion on his deathbed with...you know.
Part of me wants to say he'll manage to not be disney-predictable and cliche and say that he probably has something good in mind if he knows it reasonably well in advance but the other part says hes tired and the series has run long and would put money on it not being a previous POV character and being set a bit later with a new child character. If it is a ~8 year old Eddard/Lyanna/Qhorin/Samwell/Barristan/Osha/Ygritte/Hodor Targaryen/Stark then I'll be quite disappointed, unless it is salvaged with he/she struggling to teach his/her dragon/direwolf to either juggle or howl/roar the Rains of Castamere.
Or if the POV dies...now that'd actually be fitting.
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On August 09 2012 02:44 DarkSpectre wrote:
Did you guys check out the latest GRRM interview? He said that he knows who will be the POV of the epilogue in forthcoming A Spring of Dream book. Wow.
That's not really hard to believe... Most authors know how they will begin and end their books, it's the journey in between that's the hard part.
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EPT
