EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 162
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
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SilSol
Sweden2744 Posts
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Diizzy
United States828 Posts
something funny i found hahha | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 28 2012 02:56 Euronyme wrote: Yeah this really struck me too. I think what bothers me the most is her self entitled attitude towards pretty much everything. I especially came to think of that when Varys killed Pycell and the other Lannister hand of the king guy (god I'm so bad at names). Varys said something in the lines of "Aegon has been taught [a lot of things] and that the throne is not his right. It is his duty". That's something I really miss with Dany. Something about the fact that she's always demanding things, and that she's not the least bit humble is a big nono for me atleast. Edit. Come to think of it.. Isn't it weird that Aegon dyed his hair blue to conceal his identity? I mean blue of all colours.. It kind of sticks out in a medieval crowd to say the least. Blue.. Something tells me that he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Lyseni dye their hair all sorts of colours, Essos in general is not very Medieval, more exotic/antic | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
I think this goes to show one of the more interesting results of writing a story just from one well written (the person has their flaws and baises etc.) character's point of view, at least on one front. It is very easy for those less critical of sources to be caught up in taking the writing at face value to end up thinking simply what the character thinks about their situations and effectively knowing a different character. A related effect is seen with characters who spend some time presented from similarly biased and incompletely informed third person perspectives, aka other characters in the story. (that damned dirty Kingslayer) What I do not understand though is the appeal of Dany if she is the perfect beautiful little princess who is making everything better. That character is something out of a bad children's story. Obviously I'm biased by my own stance, but seeing her as more complicated and flawed seems like it should go hand in hand with liking the character while thinking that she is what she thinks she is would make her a chore. I blame dragons, tits and audience sympathy for past misfortunes. That importance of POV is what I hate about Cersei from a writing standpoint. When we got into her head she turned out to be exactly what had been assumed by Tyrion and other characters whose perception of her we had previously been limited to. She ended up being simple and predictable. Compared to other major characters her value to the story as a POV is limited to being a matter of where she is and what she sees rather than what she brings to it. She is better in that regard than Aero "I exist to be a fly on the wall POV for the Dornish people in power" Hotah (though he has the excuse of being minor and a necessary limitation in the number of POV's presented) but still a downright tragedy compared to someone like her brother. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On June 28 2012 05:21 Irrelevant Label wrote: Love it when information has the right level of scarcity and bias. I think this goes to show one of the more interesting results of writing a story just from one well written (the person has their flaws and baises etc.) character's point of view, at least on one front. It is very easy for those less critical of sources to be caught up in taking the writing at face value to end up thinking simply what the character thinks about their situations and effectively knowing a different character. A related effect is seen with characters who spend some time presented from similarly biased and incompletely informed third person perspectives, aka other characters in the story. (that damned dirty Kingslayer) What I do not understand though is the appeal of Dany if she is the perfect beautiful little princess who is making everything better. That character is something out of a bad children's story. Obviously I'm biased by my own stance, but seeing her as more complicated and flawed seems like it should go hand in hand with liking the character while thinking that she is what she thinks she is would make her a chore. I blame dragons, tits and audience sympathy for past misfortunes. That importance of POV is what I hate about Cersei from a writing standpoint. When we got into her head she turned out to be exactly what had been assumed by Tyrion and other characters whose perception of her we had previously been limited to. She ended up being simple and predictable. Compared to other major characters her value to the story as a POV is limited to being a matter of where she is and what she sees rather than what she brings to it. She is better in that regard than Aero "I exist to be a fly on the wall POV for the Dornish people in power" Hotah (though he has the excuse of being minor and a necessary limitation in the number of POV's presented) but still a downright tragedy compared to someone like her brother. I don't think anyone's said that Dany would be more appealing if she was a perfect little princess. Sansa is just that, and a lot of people think she's the worst. Arya and Stannis are my favourites in the series at the moment. They're far from perfect both of them. I dislike Dany not because she's not perfect, but because she's so full of herself she might burst. If I understand you correctly you're saying that tits, dragons and audience sympathies have made us believe that Dany was less of an asshole than she really was. Personally I just thought she was kind of boring in book 1. She didn't really do all that much. She tried to keep her brother content and got rammed by Drogo and that's about it. She mostly observed the culture and had fun with her horse and eggs. Book 2 is where she actually has to make decisions and like.. talk to people. Since then she's basically been an asshole imo. How smug and demeaning do you have to be to think of your people as your children? Holy shit. Sorry if I misunderstood something. I just woke up so I'm a little groggy. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
Can't stand Dany though, worst character ever. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
I watched the show first and wanted her to die a fiery death, and then even more so after actually reading that book. But she's not so bad in season 2, and then later she gets really interesting. I see bright things in the future for her. I'm hopping for a Littlefinger 2.0 (now with tits and red hair!). I think Dany being a total asshole is slightly forgivable because she's at least trying. Her efforts in Mereen were noble, if not misguided. You can't just force a culture to change, especially not that quickly. At least she learned that. Let's also remember that she's what... fifteen? Book 1 she's thirteen, so somewhere there. Her sacking of Astapor might have been a total douchebag move but it was entertaining as fuck. After reading that chapter I had to take a break and walk around because I was so excited. :D | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
In ACoK/ASoS she was a "guest" of the Lannisters, and started learning how things really are. Hiding her emotions, playing the role she needed to play, seeing how the game of thrones really works. Since AFfC she was taken under Littlefinger's wing, seeing how he manipulates those around him, taking lessons from his behavior. She already has Sweet Robin under her charm in ways that nobody else has managed, and LF is teaching her how to control the lords of the Vale and play everyone's strengths against them. A time will come when she will realize just how much power she can control, and once she knows the role LF played in the downfall of her family she will use what she learned from him to bring him down. She is really shaping up to be the first powerful female manipulator in the series. We've had Cersei to a point, but she's insanely incompetent. The only other candidate would be the Queen of Thorns but unfortunately we haven't been exposed to her too much. On a related note, I love how Sansa and Arya have been polar opposites since the beginning of the Books. In the beginning it was the whole lady vs tomboy, cultured vs adventurous, etc, but the way they each evolved has made things so much more exciting. Arya is being trained in a "taking care of business" sort of way, solving issues in a 1-on-1 approach. Sansa is being trained in how to be a puppet master and getting others to do what you want them to do. I can't wait till the reunification of the Stark kids. It will be awesome. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On June 28 2012 14:37 Euronyme wrote: Book 2 is where she actually has to make decisions and like.. talk to people. Since then she's basically been an asshole imo. How smug and demeaning do you have to be to think of your people as your children? Holy shit. As opposed to thinking of them (and treating them) as slaves and worthless peasants that you tax and conscript when necessary like most of the other rulers in the world? I'm sure the majority would take smug and demeaning any day of the week considering the alternatives. Somehow Dany's opinions and actions always seem to be measured against the "real world" standard, while all the other characters are measured by the standards of the world they live in. Dany is an asshole compared to whom exactly? Cersei? Tyrion? Littlefinger? Varys? Stannis? 99% of other major and minor characters? Yeah, cheating the slave masters and being "smug and demeaning" is such an atrocity compared to what everyone else did/does in that universe. They're all assholes, they're all smug, they're all demeaning (at the very least), and readers love them for it. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Ramong
Denmark1706 Posts
I believe as moopie do, that we will see a strong and manipulative Sansa at some point, and I hope she will fuck up Littlefinger so bad! | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On June 28 2012 16:29 zeru wrote: I wouldnt say dany is an asshole, shes probably the 2nd dumbest major character in the book after cersei though. She's accomplished quite a lot for someone that dumb. Unlike Tyrion for example. You know, someone generally perceived as "smart".  | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Manipulated the Lords of the Vale? How? Smiled and bowed and said like 5 words to them which were previously spoon-fed to her by LF. Yeah, she might be the downfall of LF in the future, but not because she ll ever match the cunning and wits and manipulative powers of LF, or cuz she'll device a masterplan, but because GRRM loves contradictory stuff like this, the most cunning and clever being tricked by the naive and simple-witted. Just like the best fighter dies in infections, the most righteous being executed as a traitor, the most loved Kings being betrayed/assasinated in their own/ally's camps/castle, Tyrion being the lawful heir of Castely Rock the list goes on and on. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
On June 28 2012 16:55 Geo.Rion wrote: The only reason I read the Sansa chapters is to have Littlefinger-time, she's becoming a manipulator? My ass, she charmed little Robert? well no shit the dumb kid searches for a replacement for a mother, there are no other women around him, nor other boys to befriend him nor girls. Manipulated the Lords of the Vale? How? Smiled and bowed and said like 5 words to them which were previously spoon-fed to her by LF. Yeah, she might be the downfall of LF in the future, but not because she ll ever match the cunning and wits and manipulative powers of LF, or cuz she'll device a masterplan, but because GRRM loves contradictory stuff like this, the most cunning and clever being tricked by the naive and simple-witted. Just like the best fighter dies in infections, the most righteous being executed as a traitor, the most loved Kings being betrayed/assasinated in their own/ally's camps/castle, Tyrion being the lawful heir of Castely Rock the list goes on and on. Oh c'mon now. He can't keep going down that route the entire time... it gets obvious and boring. Theres no reason to believe she's simple-witted. She's just naive... and I'd say that isn't true anymore. I'm with moopie here. Master manipulator incoming. Remember, the last book was supposed to be called "A Time For Wolves," but GRRM changed it because it felt too spoilery or something [citation needed]. The wolves will finally get what's coming to them (that is, good things). How cheap would that victory feel if it was by some stupid accident? I mean it is GRRM we're talking about so I guess it's possible... but until I read it, I'm going with the mastermind theory. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
------- I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the Dany that took Astapor, humiliated Yunkai's armies and initially took Mereen is the same person who has been wasting time sitting around trying to change a culture that is not her own and giving her enemies almost every concession she can all while working against her own goal in this whole folly of trying to help people. It is believable enough in an absolute sense, just weird to me. Her thinking from a->b->c->"" is something that is plausible for a little girl to think, but it is quite the extreme case of "20 cha, 14 int, 3 wis". Madness is a broad term. Barristan, or anyone, deciding that she does not have the cruelty centered madness of her father is hardly a statement that she is an empirically oriented and all around reasoned person. Madness is also not entirely negative. The only clear differences between madness and greatness are subjective measures of success and perceptions by whoever writes the history afterwards; which are all determined after the fact. Walking into that pyre was madness...until it worked and she had dragons, then it was greatness and half the world who are aware of the story wants to worship her for it. Same with the way she took Astapor. She has been trying hard to fail with this Mereen quagmire though. She'd have been dead already without her popularity among the smallfolk and a few key advisers like the shavepates, Barristan, Massandi (the true littlefinger 2.0 in the making) and Daario barely holding her cause together. I will say another thing in her defense though and that is she isn't nearly the spoiled brat some of the harsher critics claim. In our world she would be, but in hers? In hers her stance is typical. It is the expected norm that almost every person of nobility holds. "I am of <noteworthy line>, I should command <historical holdings+as much as I can win>, because I <insert circular logic repetitions>" Tyrion, everyone's favorite smart person in the story, says as much regarding his position with Casterly rock and house Lannister. The Stark family is the only one to uphold even partially more humble values and they have shown why it is hard for such an alternative stance to compete and survive in the setting. In her case, she is a Targaryen. That is the biggest fish out there in terms of historical family importance and holdings as the last surviving wealthy family of Valyria. She was raised to think that getting all of that back is more or less the meaning of life. She has never put any critical thought into it or it's ramifications, which does play into her naivete, but it is still an understandable and even expected view. It is both very nearly inconceivable that she could be any other way and a double standard to call her a spoiled brat for it without applying the label to half the characters in the story. Also it was the freedmen who started calling her mother, not something she started. She has since adopted it as one of the main pillars of her insanity regarding thinking she can "help" the downtrodden by destroying their culture and any securities they might have had in it and replacing them with...hope for rainbows and butterflies because she is their "mother" and "taking care of them"?...while leaving the old rulers to plot, regroup, and be given exorbitant concessions. Sansa has a loooooong road still before she becomes anything like littlefinger. No longer painfully clueless might be a big improvement for her but lets not get ahead of ourselves and start calling her a schemer. Besides, if anyone complains about the release date for the next book she'd probably have to be the next Stark for GRRM to kill off and with the show there are a lot of new people around who don't know that you can't complain about dates or he kills more Starks. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
BTW, a large reason why I got so annoyed by her betraying the Good Masters was because she did it because she wanted to, not because slavery was bad. Surely she opposed slavery on a personal level, like when she was in Qarth, but she wasn't vocal about it. The same was true for Astapor. She came there trying to buy an army of Unsullied, i.e. participate in the slave trade. She offered the ships, the cargo (which wasn't even hers to give), the gifts that she got in Qarth, but it wasn't enough for the number of slaves that she wanted to buy. If it was, then that would have been problem solved. So she tried her good old routine of "wah, blood of the dragon, give me stuff", it didn't work as usual, and she ended up betraying and killing them just so she can get her hands on the Unsullied. After that point, she suddenly became vocal about how wrong it is and how its now her job to liberate slaves everywhere, which to me read like her trying to justify her actions. From that point, she proceeded to Yunkai and later Mereen, as the great liberator and what not. This from the same spoiled girl that was going to buy her slave army but couldn't afford it. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 28 2012 18:00 moopie wrote: BTW, a large reason why I got so annoyed by her betraying the Good Masters was because she did it because she wanted to, not because slavery was bad. Surely she opposed slavery on a personal level, like when she was in Qarth, but she wasn't vocal about it. The same was true for Astapor. She came there trying to buy an army of Unsullied, i.e. participate in the slave trade. She offered the ships, the cargo (which wasn't even hers to give), the gifts that she got in Qarth, but it wasn't enough for the number of slaves that she wanted to buy. If it was, then that would have been problem solved. I remember, when she arrives to Astapor and learns about the unsullied, she goes back to her ship slaps Jorah, for bringing her here to witness this. Then something like, let's get out of here follows from Jorah, and she says, no we cannot. And then she goes to offer her valuables for unsullied, knowing full well it s not enough and what she has to do. So, i think it's reasonable, together with all the other cases, to say that she does hate slavery. i searched for the part, it s not exactly how i remembered, but here it is: “I have heard all I care to of their training.” Dany could feel tears welling in her eyes, sudden and unwanted. Her hand flashed up and cracked Ser Jorah hard across the face. It was either that, or cry. Mormont touched the cheek she’d slapped. “If I have displeased my queen -” “You have. You’ve displeased me greatly, ser. If you were my true knight, you would never have brought me to this vile sty.” If you were my true knight, you would never have kissed me, or looked at my breasts the way you did, or... “As Your Grace commands. I shall tell Captain Groleo to make ready to sail on the evening tide, for some sty less vile.” “No,” said Dany. Groleo watched them from the forecastle, and his crew was watching too. Whitebeard, her bloodriders, Jhiqui, everyone had stopped what they were doing at the sound of the slap. “I want to sail now, not on the tide, I want to sail far and fast and never look back. But I can’t, can I? There are eight thousand brick eunuchs for sale, and I must find some way to buy them.” And with that she left him, and went below. | ||
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