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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it".
When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level?
She was clearly opposed to slavery on every level. She might have wanted to buy a slave army, but a more significant point here is that she doesn't lead a slave army, as they were no longer slaves after she had... acquired them.
So I take it that the only thing you have a problem with is her not respecting the private property of Illyrio, the slave masters and various other scum, which is just irrational on so many levels.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2012 03:47 Diizzy wrote:something funny i found hahha
LOOOOOOL SO GOOD! Ee-han timing!
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On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level? She was clearly opposed to slavery on every level. She might have wanted to buy a slave army, but a more significant point here is that she doesn't lead a slave army, as they were no longer slaves after she had... acquired them. So I take it that the only thing you have a problem with is her not respecting the private property of Illyrio, the slave masters and various other scum, which is just irrational on so many levels.
What's irrational is creating a slave army in the first place. You can't do much with that and logistics would be a nightmare. Just look at the 3rd Servile War in Rome, Spartacus (who was an accomplished military commander and tactician, unlike Dany) had ~120000 slaves and gladiators with him. Throughout the entire war he faced around 60-70000 militiamen, legionnaires and auxilia (never all at the same time, usually a legion at a time --- 4-5k men) and look how it ended.
The only thing Dany has going for her are the dragons, but even dragons didn't help Targaryens in the past.
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On June 28 2012 19:34 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level? She was clearly opposed to slavery on every level. She might have wanted to buy a slave army, but a more significant point here is that she doesn't lead a slave army, as they were no longer slaves after she had... acquired them. So I take it that the only thing you have a problem with is her not respecting the private property of Illyrio, the slave masters and various other scum, which is just irrational on so many levels. What's irrational is creating a slave army in the first place. You can't do much with that and logistics would be a nightmare. Just look at the 3rd Servile War in Rome, Spartacus (who was an accomplished military commander and tactician, unlike Dany) had ~120000 slaves and gladiators with him. Throughout the entire war he faced around 60-70000 militiamen, legionnaires and auxilia (never all at the same time, usually a legion at a time --- 4-5k men) and look how it ended. The only thing Dany has going for her are the dragons, but even dragons didn't help Targaryens in the past.
Hardly comparable, since the Unsullied are actually trained soldiers, rather than self-taught individual fighters mixed with a ton of non-combatants (that most of Spartacus' army was). Unsullied are more comparable to Spartans in the way they are trained since childhood, obviously sans the slave part. And Unsullied are no longer slaves anyway.
Dragons have been almost as much of a hindrance to Dany as they've been helpful. For a long time they were basically the prize that she had to protect and everybody else wanted to obtain. Then they were helpful to establish her authority and win some more for a period of time, and then (Mereen) they were back to being mostly useless and/or a hindrance again.
And Dragons did help the Targaryens, just not the last ones. 
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On June 28 2012 19:34 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level? She was clearly opposed to slavery on every level. She might have wanted to buy a slave army, but a more significant point here is that she doesn't lead a slave army, as they were no longer slaves after she had... acquired them. So I take it that the only thing you have a problem with is her not respecting the private property of Illyrio, the slave masters and various other scum, which is just irrational on so many levels. What's irrational is creating a slave army in the first place. You can't do much with that and logistics would be a nightmare. Just look at the 3rd Servile War in Rome, Spartacus (who was an accomplished military commander and tactician, unlike Dany) had ~120000 slaves and gladiators with him. Throughout the entire war he faced around 60-70000 militiamen, legionnaires and auxilia (never all at the same time, usually a legion at a time --- 4-5k men) and look how it ended. The only thing Dany has going for her are the dragons, but even dragons didn't help Targaryens in the past.
...Sorry, but that's a terrible comparison.
Mamlukes? Janissaries?
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On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level?
She could have gone to Pentos like Illyrio asked her to. Thats why he sent the 3 ships to pick her and her people up. In Pentos he could have provided her with what was needed to progress further.
She is the one that chose to disobey Illyrio, take possession of his ships and goods and go hang out in Slaver's Bay for 3 books for whatever reason.
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When did dragons not help the Targaryens? When hers were small and she had to protect them, sure...except even then Drogon saved her from the Undying, but the reference here seems to be towards past Targaryens. When they fought each other and got all the dragons killed off and later when they had no dragons are the only times dragons did not more or less decide a war in favor of the Targaryens.
Unsullied are nothing like roman slaves. Quite to the contrary, they are the most disciplined soldiers in their setting as opposed to a "rabble" force. They are easily her main strength at the moment, as every one of her commanders agreed upon at Barristan's round table.
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What is with the Illyrio's ships discussion? It's such a minor thing in the context of everything else she has done and considering Groelo/Barristan/Belwas all agreed they were hers to do with as she saw fit and Groelo only had substantial misgivings later when it came time to cannibalize them for siege equipment materials. I don't see a significant "theft" here. Astapor and Yunkai were where she went into conqueror mode and "broke rules"...and that is still flimsy as hell. So she did finally follow a piece of good advice once when she took to heart the quip about fighting honorably/nobly/valiantly=dying. That is what people do, and not just in the setting but almost anywhere with meaningful competition. She started acting like a conqueror. In all her ineptitude, she did actually do some things right in terms of winning but now that is a reason to dislike her? Furthermore, is that is reason to dislike someone then I'd hate asoiaf because that leaves...Sansa (but not for long probably), Brienne, Bran and Jaime as pov characters to like.
Related: + Show Spoiler +
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On June 28 2012 20:27 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level? She could have gone to Pentos like Illyrio wanted her to. Thats why he sent the 3 ships to pick her and her people up. In Pentos, he could have provided her with what was needed to progress further. She is the one that chose to disobey Illyrio, take possession of his ships and goods and go hang out in Slaver's Bay for 3 books for whatever reason.
Why would she want to do that? It would put her in an inferior position and pretty much make her Illyrio's puppet. She needed her own army and people that would follow her, not Illyrio and his little interest faction. She couldn't get that anywhere in Westeros, and she certainly wouldn't get that in Pentos. So there was nowhere else to go.
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Golden! The Robb scene is priceless xd
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On June 29 2012 04:27 Ender985 wrote:Golden! The Robb scene is priceless xd
I thought the dany scene was the best ^^
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On June 28 2012 20:27 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 19:21 Talin wrote:On June 28 2012 18:26 moopie wrote:
Yes she opposed slavery and mistreatment of people, but not enough that she didn't want to buy a slave army when she set foot in Astapor. I'm not saying her initial intentions of wanting to help others weren't good.
My issue was that she came to Astapor with the intentions of buying a slave army, couldn't afford to, betrayed the Masters, and suddenly it was ok because "oh, slavery is bad, they deserved it". When she came to Astapor, she was in a position where she had to do something to progress towards her goal. She couldn't afford to buy what she wanted, and she also couldn't just sit there until someone gives her what she needs (and if she did do that, then all the talk about her being an entitled, spoiled brat would gain more weight), she couldn't realistically go elsewhere either. What should she have done in order for you to not find her behavior objectionable on some nitpicky level? She could have gone to Pentos like Illyrio asked her to. Thats why he sent the 3 ships to pick her and her people up. In Pentos he could have provided her with what was needed to progress further. She is the one that chose to disobey Illyrio, take possession of his ships and goods and go hang out in Slaver's Bay for 3 books for whatever reason.
That reason being GRRM didn't plot well and the book series started making money so instead of concluding it he drew it out to a bunch more books and pages. Now Daenerys' character is a real problem because he has to keep her in stasis for no logical reason.
Daenerys' character is annoying because she makes no progress and is idiotic. It seems like a pretty simple idea to understand, but ofc fanboys will be fanboys and try to defend her to the death.
She's been repeatedly told by numerous intelligent characters that she's a moron and the army she needs is in Westeros. The people who defend her don't seem to understand the concept of de jure claims and how important the concept of claims and bloodlines were to people in the medieval era. The entire right to rule is derived from a person's lineage. Her lineage as a Targaryen is worth 10x more than any shit ragtag army she could draw together screwing around with the Free Cities.
Not to mention the logistics behind transporting an army big enough to conquer Westeros TO Westeros. Not to mention the supplying and upkeep of that army. Not to mention the problem of disease with bringing an army from such foreign environs to Westeros. Not to mention what the hell would an army from the Free Cities want to go all the way to Westeros and fight a long bloody war for? There's no claim for them there. There's no benefit. The risk of dying is super high and there are plenty of closer, easier, more familiar places for them to pillage if they wanted money or lands.
Daenerys' entire plotline has been nonsensical since she left Qarth. There was absolutely no reason for her to go conqueror mode when there would never be any way for her to incorporate those conquests into her holdings as Queen of Westeros. Her gains have been minimal at best, and practically speaking, her chances of getting assassinated or killed or her dragons killed or stolen, increased dramatically when she became a conqueror. If she was just waiting for her dragons to mature, she should have retreated to a remote cave, had supplies brought to her, and done yoga for a few years.
She could have gotten the money to do that by raiding a few random caravans, much less sack a bunch of cities.
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You're still missing the point. Dany cares about what she's doing in Slaver's Bay just as much as retaking some homeland she's never seen in her life. In her mind, this is her fight just as much as the one awaiting her in Westeros. She truly wants to deliver every slave in the world from bondage. Yes, its kind of silly considering the sheer numbers facing her by the end of ADwD...but its also remarkably courageous.
Does Dany exhibit questionable decision making at times? Obviously. She's fucking sixteen, and at least a little crazy besides. But she's also proven herself as a skilled tactician and negotiator, and imo has been quite reasonable in her governance of Meereen (aside from every time someone's like "hey we need to get the fuck out of here or we're all gonna die").
Oh, and as to the whole "she stole Illyrio's shit" thing, Illyrio claims to be her friend who is only interested in seeing her sitting on the Iron Throne, and, well - "What use are wealthy friends if they will not put their wealth at your disposal?" (ASoS, 119)
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On June 29 2012 13:24 GDbushido wrote:
You're still missing the point. Dany cares about what she's doing in Slaver's Bay just as much as retaking some homeland she's never seen in her life. In her mind, this is her fight just as much as the one awaiting her in Westeros. She truly wants to deliver every slave in the world from bondage. Yes, its kind of silly considering the sheer numbers facing her by the end of ADwD...but its also remarkably courageous.
Does Dany exhibit questionable decision making at times? Obviously. She's fucking sixteen, and at least a little crazy besides. But she's also proven herself as a skilled tactician and negotiator, and imo has been quite reasonable in her governance of Meereen (aside from every time someone's like "hey we need to get the fuck out of here or we're all gonna die").
Oh, and as to the whole "she stole Illyrio's shit" thing, Illyrio claims to be her friend who is only interested in seeing her sitting on the Iron Throne, and, well - "What use are wealthy friends if they will not put their wealth at your disposal?" (ASoS, 119)
I think at the end of the day, people are just going to disagree on what we find to be intelligent behavior. You admit her quest to end slavery is silly. And that she's a little crazy. And that people are constantly telling her to get the fuck out of there. People have constantly been telling her how the world works and that her ambitions are totally impractical. Yet at every turn, she's just been horribly egotistical and said that she can do it because she's the Queen of Dragons etc.
When people try to ask her to change policies etc, she's like no, I don't want to. It wasn't until an army was camped outside her city and her people were getting mass murdered inside that she changed her mind on something as stupid as the blood pits. This coming from the girl who watched approvingly as her brother got molten gold poured down his throat. For what? For selling her to Drogo for an army? For yelling at her? For trying to take the dragon eggs? She's such a hypocritical and downright annoying character, I don't see what her charm is other than the fact she has dragons and is the only character we get to use to see exotic locations. Although now we've got the dwarf for that, so maybe GRRM will knock her off.
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The whole egotistical dragon queen thing seems to be on the verge of crossing a very important threshold with the dragons becoming superweaponable. That might change a lot of dynamics. At the very least she has the chance to sound less shrill with more to back herself up with.
She also seemed to have been partially knocked out of her idiotic notions about staying in Mereen and thinking she can "help" there, but with only one chapter in which she was not entirely coherent to suggest it we can't be sure. Once she gets back to the city she is about to have a whole slew of things to learn she was wrong about and just maybe (however unlikely given her ability to see what she wants rather than the clear empirical evidence) learn lessons from.
I think there is a chance she will get 'better' soon as things head into the endgame. It even fits with the hypothesis that her problems originate from GRRM not having a great idea for what to do with her when the midsection of the story was extended the way it was.
On the other hand some of her failings dovetail well with some of Jon's.
...and just like that I convinced myself to seriously reconsider Tyrion as the third head.
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Why all the hate against Dany, Cersei, even a lil bit of Sansa? They are all alive, and for the incompetance they show they have learned enough, done enough or been lucky enough to live. In my opinion, the worst of the worst when it comes to incompetence is clearly dat trio of Ned/Robb/Catelyn Stark, whom all willingly threw away positions of power for extremely short sighted and rediculous reasons.
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When reading all of these posts about Dany, it seems you all want her to be a female version of Tywin. With each sentence about how she does something wrong I can imagine each of you sitting in your chairs and thinking "What would Tywin do in her place?!" before writing your posts.
I like her being a human being. I like her being a person who has been told from her youth that she is special and chosen (Targaryan) and then after she got sold she was being treated like she has a destiny ahead of her (first with her son and then later with Dragons), and that kind of person using that influence and power to try to fix some wrongs in that world. Her freeing slaves and ruling Meeren is a good move, it is only not good for all the readers that have been waiting for her from Book 1 to come to Westeros. Personally I don't care, I enjoy reading about 1 person in power that is not only doing what is best for him/her.
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On June 29 2012 18:35 aloT wrote:
Why all the hate against Dany, Cersei, even a lil bit of Sansa? They are all alive, and for the incompetance they show they have learned enough, done enough or been lucky enough to live. In my opinion, the worst of the worst when it comes to incompetence is clearly dat trio of Ned/Robb/Catelyn Stark, whom all willingly threw away positions of power for extremely short sighted and rediculous reasons.
Dany and Sansa might have learned from their mistakes, but Cersei haven't...
The only reason she is still alive is because she is incompetent and stupid, Vareys keeps her alive so she can ruin Westeros
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On June 29 2012 18:35 aloT wrote:
Why all the hate against Dany, Cersei, even a lil bit of Sansa? They are all alive, and for the incompetance they show they have learned enough, done enough or been lucky enough to live. In my opinion, the worst of the worst when it comes to incompetence is clearly dat trio of Ned/Robb/Catelyn Stark, whom all willingly threw away positions of power for extremely short sighted and rediculous reasons.
Cercei did the same, only she s on the other end of the spectrum, while Starks tried to be unreasonably honorable and righteous, Cercei tried to control everything and give nothing to the people whose help she desperately needs/needed, namely the Tyrells & co. and Kevan+Jaime (a bit more complicated with the later two, but still she has done a magnificent job of making the wrong decision in every single issue that arisen)
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On June 29 2012 18:38 -Archangel- wrote:
When reading all of these posts about Dany, it seems you all want her to be a female version of Tywin. With each sentence about how she does something wrong I can imagine each of you sitting in your chairs and thinking "What would Tywin do in her place?!" before writing your posts.
I like her being a human being. I like her being a person who has been told from her youth that she is special and chosen (Targaryan) and then after she got sold she was being treated like she has a destiny ahead of her (first with her son and then later with Dragons), and that kind of person using that influence and power to try to fix some wrongs in that world. Her freeing slaves and ruling Meeren is a good move, it is only not good for all the readers that have been waiting for her from Book 1 to come to Westeros. Personally I don't care, I enjoy reading about 1 person in power not only doing what is best of him/her.
There are a lot of layers to it and I think different people are concerned with different layers. There is just hating her all around, then there is disliking the character, then there is disliking some of the things she does, etc.
I have no problem critiquing her shortcomings because that is exactly what they are and it has a lot of interesting implications for the story. That hardly means I dislike the character. She is a crazy naive little girl sometimes and that is a pretty interesting mother of dragons messianic figure. When I say "get better" I mean from a personal improvement standpoint, not "I hope GRRM makes this character better."
From a character quality standpoint I do wonder sometimes about the swing that happened between book 3 and 5 where she regressed in wisdom and can't help but give the idea that GRRM screwed up with her when extending the story some credit. She was pretty nearly the coveted 'Tywin with teats' circa Yunkai/Mereen and dealing with her knights while the girl "ruling" Mereen seems like the person who still believes her asinine older brother about people back in Westeros sewing dragon banners. Put another way, it was weird to think she was 15 in book 3 while book 5 has almost a reverse impact. "Growing up in harsh conditions makes you mature faster, and also think about people like Alexander the great..." turned into "remember she is only 16."
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The problem with Dany is that she is not a strong enough character to hold her own as the protagonist for an entire continent, and neither are her supporting cast. The reason why Jon Snow and his story is much more liked, despite being like Dany seperated from the politics of Westeros is that the character interactions and events that happen feel meaningful, foreboding and crucial to the story. We don't care what happens to a random slave city on the otherside of the World, it is geographically and culturally too detached from all the characters we love in Westeros to be immersive for the readers. I can see the Greyjoy fleet or the Second Sons/Tyrion pulling Dany back into the fray and uniting with the Golden Company, but then what was with all the mess and politics that is left behind? GRR has written so much about that crappy land that he has to somehow force himself to tie up the actual people with Westeros somehow. I don't see it happening smoothly
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EPT
