SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
The Banker (Tycho) made a deal with Jon for a loan so the Night's Watch can buy food during winter.
He was going to make a deal with Stannis because Cersei wouldn't pay, so he is going to fund Stannis so that when he retakes the Iron Throne he could repay the Bank for the crown's debt. The borrowed money would allow Stannis to hire sellswords (free companies) to strengthen his forces so that he can win the throne.
That said, I don't believe the bank has their own army.
And iirc Tycho came with 3 ships but no troops. The rest of the ships that went to save the wildlings belonged to the Night's watch (plus the ones they salvaged from the storm).
There is no Iron Bank army, just a few nights watch rangers Jon assigned to escort the banker.
Dany...honor...principles...I want to call those things non applicable to her, but it seems like "NA" should not be a possible sense of honor.
Her goals and ideals are a convoluted mess of contradictions born of overwhelming naivete. She means well, but that does not mean anything. Everyone other than blatant sociopaths "means well".
Her primary goal is not something she ever put any thought into. She was raised with it constantly being pounded into her head. "I want to go home*" No real reasoning. No thought of the implications. It just is.
If Maegor the cruel decided he wanted to be Baelor the blessed but went about it using his "Maegor the cruel" skillset and MO that would be about what Dany is. I do like her as a character; but she is fucking crazy and in that scariest "she doesn't seem dangerous on the surface, some people who know her reasonably well would call her gentle/kind/all around good natured, but she is actually entirely mad" way. If she toughened up, put her actions where her occasional thought is regarding "I am a monster", and just went full conqueror she might be a lot more sensible and ultimately more people would probably be better off. She doesn't have anything pushing her in such a direction. No, instead she has about the worst thing possible. Barristan the Bold. A nobler than anyone good guy who is her main and for the most part only trusted adviser. He sets a bright moral compass that they both fail to see that she doesn't actually follow, regardless of all her good intentions. She doesn't listen to him and he does not see her for what she is and so he is ultimately just a complacency mechanism.
*home in this case being that place across the sea she knows next to nothing about but her ancestor conquered it a couple hundred years ago and her father lost it.
Whoever the third head is they had better be about the most jaded, cynical, ruthless, educated, pragmatic, down to earth and maybe pessimistic person in the world in order to counteract these other two fools. Or maybe that is the point; "fire is life, but fire consumes", the heads of the dragon protect life but thoroughly screw everything up.
On June 27 2012 14:13 moopie wrote: The Banker (Tycho) made a deal with Jon for a loan so the Night's Watch can buy food during winter.
He was going to make a deal with Stannis because Cersei wouldn't pay, so he is going to fund Stannis so that when he retakes the Iron Throne he could repay the Bank for the crown's debt. The borrowed money would allow Stannis to hire sellswords (free companies) to strengthen his forces so that he can win the throne.
That said, I don't believe the bank has their own army.
And iirc Tycho came with 3 ships but no troops. The rest of the ships that went to save the wildlings belonged to the Night's watch (plus the ones they salvaged from the storm).
Oh fair enough. I thought he had some kind of escort atleast. I mean he did command 16 ships after all.
On June 27 2012 13:24 Irrelevant Label wrote: Almost nothing about what happens at/near Winterfell at the end of book 5/beginning of book 6 is sure enough to even take an educated guess on. Ramsay probably does not possess Theon and Jeyne as either he lost or is otherwise not it's author and in either case is not in a position to command much if anything or he won and there is then no particular reason to doubt that part of the letter and that he is the author.
I'd guess there is a slightly more likely than not chance that Ramsay is the author of the letter because it seems reasonable for him to have won as it seems to be time for Stannis to die.
Well Theon and the girls died right? They tried to escape and got crossbowed down. That doesn't mean Bolton lost.
Other than that we don't know. One scenario would be that Stannis lost and is now a prisoner. The Iron Bank of Braavos army is on their way there too iirc, and the White Harbour lads hate the Boltons and the Freys. There could be some rescue action there and Stannis can lead the Iron Bank's army.
Theon didn't die. He escaped and made it to Stannis' camp with FakeArya.
And I don't believe the Iron Bank of Braavos has an army.
I might have dreamed it, but I recall that it was explained that if you cross the iron bank of braavos they'll find a rival of your title and help them usurp it if they promise to repay the debt. That's how they roll. There was a banker in castle black who made a deal with Jon that the Night's Watch could borrow money to buy food for the winter. That banker was on his way to Stannis. He had what was it? 16 ships? Those ships Jon made him lend to the wildlings I think so they could escape from the place the witch had said the wildlings who escaped from the battle at the wall should run to. Those 16 ships wern't empy, and there's more coming if Stannis accepts the deal. I think they can make Stannis army more than substantial.
as far as i remember the Braavosi had 3 ships that were borrowed by Jon to increase the fleet going to rescue the wildlings (fuckin genius idea...). And yeah, the Iron Bank doesnt have an army but they're by far the wealthiest bank, and could easily hire free companies from Essos, gather free-riders and hedge kinghts from Westeros and potentially bribe some lords to join Stannis's cause. EDIT: moopie beat me to it
If westeros is collectively so weak that a few mercenary companies can decide who wins I don't see why westeros isn't simply conquered by another outside player who can simply swoop in to 'last hit' the Iron Throne
A few companies can't simply decide who wins. But some 20k extra men would be exactly what Stannis needed to beat Bolton - and thus win the North. With his own men, the mercs, the North, and possibly Wildlings he is a serious threat to the Iron Thrones again.
On June 27 2012 19:37 aloT wrote: If westeros is collectively so weak that a few mercenary companies can decide who wins I don't see why westeros isn't simply conquered by another outside player who can simply swoop in to 'last hit' the Iron Throne
Its not as simple as just a few mercenary companies. Between the broken alliances and spent troops/resources from the Wot5K, the uncertainness and all, The crown is weaker than in recent history. At the moment, good leadership/tactics with a decent sized host can forge new alliances and start taking territories.
Take Stannis for example, he's an experienced commander, and while he has very strict regulations he's good and respectful to his people. Add the fact that the Boltons and Freys are hated by many for their role in backstabbing Robb and it becomes easier to get some of the northern lords on his side. If he can reclaim Winterfell and put someone like Jon/Rickon back in place he'll likely win the rest of them. After "liberating" the North/Riverlands, he could continue south as Robb did.
Besides, even if someone rich from Essos decided to just hire all the free companies and somehow managed to take the throne, he still needs the rich and influential lords on his side to prevent constant mutinies. Aegon/Faegon is starting his attempt using the golden company, and we'll see what alliances he manages to forge on his quest for the throne. Its clear that currently with his mercenaries he's still a long ways away from winning the throne.
On June 27 2012 13:24 Irrelevant Label wrote: Almost nothing about what happens at/near Winterfell at the end of book 5/beginning of book 6 is sure enough to even take an educated guess on. Ramsay probably does not possess Theon and Jeyne as either he lost or is otherwise not it's author and in either case is not in a position to command much if anything or he won and there is then no particular reason to doubt that part of the letter and that he is the author.
I'd guess there is a slightly more likely than not chance that Ramsay is the author of the letter because it seems reasonable for him to have won as it seems to be time for Stannis to die.
Well Theon and the girls died right? They tried to escape and got crossbowed down. That doesn't mean Bolton lost.
Other than that we don't know. One scenario would be that Stannis lost and is now a prisoner. The Iron Bank of Braavos army is on their way there too iirc, and the White Harbour lads hate the Boltons and the Freys. There could be some rescue action there and Stannis can lead the Iron Bank's army.
Theon didn't die. He escaped and made it to Stannis' camp with FakeArya.
And I don't believe the Iron Bank of Braavos has an army.
I might have dreamed it, but I recall that it was explained that if you cross the iron bank of braavos they'll find a rival of your title and help them usurp it if they promise to repay the debt. That's how they roll. There was a banker in castle black who made a deal with Jon that the Night's Watch could borrow money to buy food for the winter. That banker was on his way to Stannis. He had what was it? 16 ships? Those ships Jon made him lend to the wildlings I think so they could escape from the place the witch had said the wildlings who escaped from the battle at the wall should run to. Those 16 ships wern't empy, and there's more coming if Stannis accepts the deal. I think they can make Stannis army more than substantial.
as far as i remember the Braavosi had 3 ships that were borrowed by Jon to increase the fleet going to rescue the wildlings (fuckin genius idea...). And yeah, the Iron Bank doesnt have an army but they're by far the wealthiest bank, and could easily hire free companies from Essos, gather free-riders and hedge kinghts from Westeros and potentially bribe some lords to join Stannis's cause. EDIT: moopie beat me to it
Yeah I might've got it wrong. Well it's pretty clever to rescue the wildlings as they just turn into zombies if the white walkers get to them first. You'd generally rather have wildlings running about, than having a practically immortal army of zombies and white walkers sieging the wall.
On June 27 2012 19:37 aloT wrote: If westeros is collectively so weak that a few mercenary companies can decide who wins I don't see why westeros isn't simply conquered by another outside player who can simply swoop in to 'last hit' the Iron Throne
Its not as simple as just a few mercenary companies. Between the broken alliances and spent troops/resources from the Wot5K, the uncertainness and all, The crown is weaker than in recent history. At the moment, good leadership/tactics with a decent sized host can forge new alliances and start taking territories.
Take Stannis for example, he's an experienced commander, and while he has very strict regulations he's good and respectful to his people. Add the fact that the Boltons and Freys are hated by many for their role in backstabbing Robb and it becomes easier to get some of the northern lords on his side. If he can reclaim Winterfell and put someone like Jon/Rickon back in place he'll likely win the rest of them. After "liberating" the North/Riverlands, he could continue south as Robb did.
Besides, even if someone rich from Essos decided to just hire all the free companies and somehow managed to take the throne, he still needs the rich and influential lords on his side to prevent constant mutinies. Aegon/Faegon is starting his attempt using the golden company, and we'll see what alliances he manages to forge on his quest for the throne. Its clear that currently with his mercenaries he's still a long ways away from winning the throne.
IIRC the last of the Blackfyres tried doing just this (leading to the War of the Ninepenny Kings) by banding together a bunch of mercenary companies and other interests but they got bogged down conquering the Free Cities and the Targaryens eventually sent out a Westerosi expeditionary force to put them down.
She's sorta alive I guess...and she'll probably do more in the series...but in her current form unCat is really in no position to rule anything (let alone Winterfell).
hahaha oh god. They're saying what everyone's thinking, but I bet George thinks of it as the annoying kid in the back seat going "are we there yet?" for the fourtyeleventh time.
Since when did Dany have honor or principles? she's just a spoiled selfish brat who tries to rationalize her decisions and ignores her advisors when they disagree with her. Where was her honor when she stole Illyrio's ships and sold off their contents? Where was her honor when she went back on her word and stole the Unsullied?
Her "honor" led to a huge fucking war and caused the deaths of thousands in Slavers's Bay, including a ton of innocents, pretty much hurting everyone in the process.
Since day 1 she has been trying to raise an army to brute force her way into the Iron Throne (killing anyone who stands in her way) when her only legitimacy is that her ancestors did the same at one point.
Must be reading two different series. Illyrio gave her those ships, the Unsullied were slaves. Stealing slaves to set them free = dishonorable now? I guess Abraham Lincoln had "honor" instead of honor too what with that big war he decided to fight, seems like you just hate the character for no real reason so you're coming up with ridiculous reasons why she's bad.
Her legitimacy is 300 years of her family ruling the Seven Kingdoms, no more or less legitimate than Stannis' claim because he's the brother of the man who conquered them from the Targaryens, or Robb Stark's claim to the North just because X thousand years ago Bran the Builder constructed the Wall, or Doran Martell's claim to Dorne, House Martell being best at conquering the other petty lords of Dorne before Aegon landed.
Dany...honor...principles...I want to call those things non applicable to her, but it seems like "NA" should not be a possible sense of honor.
Her goals and ideals are a convoluted mess of contradictions born of overwhelming naivete. She means well, but that does not mean anything. Everyone other than blatant sociopaths "means well".
Yeah okay. What are these contradictions?
Her primary goal is not something she ever put any thought into. She was raised with it constantly being pounded into her head. "I want to go home*" No real reasoning. No thought of the implications. It just is.
Really? Must be reading two different book series again...
If Maegor the cruel decided he wanted to be Baelor the blessed but went about it using his "Maegor the cruel" skillset and MO that would be about what Dany is. I do like her as a character; but she is fucking crazy and in that scariest "she doesn't seem dangerous on the surface, some people who know her reasonably well would call her gentle/kind/all around good natured, but she is actually entirely mad" way. If she toughened up, put her actions where her occasional thought is regarding "I am a monster", and just went full conqueror she might be a lot more sensible and ultimately more people would probably be better off. She doesn't have anything pushing her in such a direction. No, instead she has about the worst thing possible. Barristan the Bold. A nobler than anyone good guy who is her main and for the most part only trusted adviser. He sets a bright moral compass that they both fail to see that she doesn't actually follow, regardless of all her good intentions. She doesn't listen to him and he does not see her for what she is and so he is ultimately just a complacency mechanism.
Every single character in the books who knows Danaerys says she doesn't have the Targaryen madness, but you've ferreted out GRRM's cleverest ruse: she really does! I don't believe it.
Illyrio didn't really give her the ships for her to keep them, he wanted her to use the ships to come to Pentos. She took the ships, sold off the cargo (against advice from Jorah iirc), and decided to go to Slaver's bay.
It doesn't matter if the Unsullied were slaves. She made a deal to trade her dragon for the unsullied, the deal was finalized. She double crossed them, went back on her word, stole the unsullied and murdered the Good Masters (leading to the sacking of Astapor). You have to remember that Essos isn't living by our current moral standards. Their entire culture is based off of Slaves. Whether you think her decision is right or wrong due to the Unsullied being slaves, its certainly not honorable. If she had gone up to the Masters, demanded they free the slaves or she will go off to war with them then at least thats not deceitful. She also broke her word during the siege of Yunkai.
She left Westeros as a baby. She doesn't know the place or the people. She thinks she deserves to rule because her family did. She surrounds herself with advisors and says how she wants everyone's advice, but listens only when it goes along with her version of things, otherwise she dismisses everything else. When she is told for example that her father was fucking crazy and killed innocents for shits and giggles, she won't hear any of it. She is convinced that Robert and Eddard were scum and that her father was a just ruler who was loved by all.
Many see her for the spoiled brat she is. Since ACoK her story pretty much boils down to: walk around for a while, run into people, ask/demand for stuff with her self-entitled attitude, when they don't give it to her throw a tantrum with the whole "I am Daenerys Targaryen / The unburnt / Blood of the dragon / Mother of dragons / yadda yadda yadda, I'll take what is mine!" and often sulks for a while when they tell her to bugger off. Then she moves on somewhere else and repeats the process. Eventually she cheats her way to get the unsullied, takes over Mereen, watches as the city destroys itself and the region goes to shit, still feels she's in the right about everything, and then gives up what progress she made by re-allowing the arena/slave trade in order to restore the peace, achieving nothing but turmoil overall.
Everything she has ever touched has turned to shit. Fucked up shit in Qarth, fucked up shit in Astapor, fucked up shit in Mereen, threw all of Slaver's Bay into chaos and war. She destroyed the entire economy, leaving people to die of famine and disease. She couldn't even keep 1 city under control and yet she thinks she deserves to rule Westeros (and worse, after all that she still believes she's a good ruler).
You can like Dany if you want, but there is nothing in the story that points at her being honorable. In the end, she does whatever the fuck she feels like as long as she feels it furthers her own agenda. Dany intended to do good, but ended up fucking up the region ridiculously, hurting everyone. Her existance in Essos only made the area worse.
That region was shit to begin with. Even more so than Westeros. Just because there is now unrest and war doesn't make its previous "peaceful" state agreeable. Maybe "honorable" was the wrong term, but it really depends on the context. I would say she's definitely acting honorably towards the general population. Whether the consequences of what she does are good or bad for the people in the region is debatable, but it has nothing to do with her honor (or lack thereof). Likewise, "cheating" slave traders isn't something that many people would describe as dishonorable, whether in our world or her own.
It is a fantasy novel, and despite all the overstated moral ambiguity of characters she (along with Jon) pretty much has the most generic hero story arc. Hence all the corny, naive and idealistic character traits, with almost no dark streaks and very few slip-ups in their moral agenda.
I understand why somebody would dislike those characters on that basis. It's hardly a popular character concept among the more mature (and infinitely more cynical) audience.
On June 28 2012 00:46 moopie wrote: Illyrio didn't really give her the ships for her to keep them, he wanted her to use the ships to come to Pentos. She took the ships, sold off the cargo (against advice from Jorah iirc), and decided to go to Slaver's bay.
It doesn't matter if the Unsullied were slaves. She made a deal to trade her dragon for the unsullied, the deal was finalized. She double crossed them, went back on her word, stole the unsullied and murdered the Good Masters (leading to the sacking of Astapor). You have to remember that Essos isn't living by our current moral standards. Their entire culture is based off of Slaves. Whether you think her decision is right or wrong due to the Unsullied being slaves, its certainly not honorable. If she had gone up to the Masters, demanded they free the slaves or she will go off to war with them then at least thats not deceitful. She also broke her word during the siege of Yunkai.
She left Westeros as a baby. She doesn't know the place or the people. She thinks she deserves to rule because her family did. She surrounds herself with advisors and says how she wants everyone's advice, but listens only when it goes along with her version of things, otherwise she dismisses everything else. When she is told for example that her father was fucking crazy and killed innocents for shits and giggles, she won't hear any of it. She is convinced that Robert and Eddard were scum and that her father was a just ruler who was loved by all.
Many see her for the spoiled brat she is. Since ACoK her story pretty much boils down to: walk around for a while, run into people, ask/demand for stuff with her self-entitled attitude, when they don't give it to her throw a tantrum with the whole "I am Daenerys Targaryen / The unburnt / Blood of the dragon / Mother of dragons / yadda yadda yadda, I'll take what is mine!" and often sulks for a while when they tell her to bugger off. Then she moves on somewhere else and repeats the process. Eventually she cheats her way to get the unsullied, takes over Mereen, watches as the city destroys itself and the region goes to shit, still feels she's in the right about everything, and then gives up what progress she made by re-allowing the arena/slave trade in order to restore the peace, achieving nothing but turmoil overall.
Everything she has ever touched has turned to shit. Fucked up shit in Qarth, fucked up shit in Astapor, fucked up shit in Mereen, threw all of Slaver's Bay into chaos and war. She destroyed the entire economy, leaving people to die of famine and disease. She couldn't even keep 1 city under control and yet she thinks she deserves to rule Westeros (and worse, after all that she still believes she's a good ruler).
You can like Dany if you want, but there is nothing in the story that points at her being honorable. In the end, she does whatever the fuck she feels like as long as she feels it furthers her own agenda. Dany intended to do good, but ended up fucking up the region ridiculously, hurting everyone. Her existance in Essos only made the area worse.
Yeah this really struck me too. I think what bothers me the most is her self entitled attitude towards pretty much everything. I especially came to think of that when Varys killed Pycell and the other Lannister hand of the king guy (god I'm so bad at names). Varys said something in the lines of "Aegon has been taught [a lot of things] and that the throne is not his right. It is his duty". That's something I really miss with Dany. Something about the fact that she's always demanding things, and that she's not the least bit humble is a big nono for me atleast.
Edit. Come to think of it.. Isn't it weird that Aegon dyed his hair blue to conceal his identity? I mean blue of all colours.. It kind of sticks out in a medieval crowd to say the least. Blue.. Something tells me that he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
EPT
