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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 01 2012 12:21 Corrik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:18 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:On June 01 2012 11:00 Corrik wrote:
Does anyone think Brienne will cut off Jaime's hand based on that description? no, FAR too out of character, especially considering she falls in love with him. They are going to start having to go far out of character soon enough. In fact, you could argue they already did when Jaime killed his cousin. I could see them having Brienne take his hand... him realizing his mortality and less than perfection... and Brienne falling for him after he comes down to Earth.
True, but another thing is it doesn't necessarily have to be vargo who cuts off his hand, takes him back to harrenhall etc. It's more that the loses it than who cuts off. It's arguably the turning point of his life as he can no longer fight his way out of anything. So it can be from anything to freak accident or just some random outlaws and if he loses it defending Brienne it will make the viewers accept his change of nature that much easier.
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I keep forgetting to ask this question. In episode 18 Jaime mentions to Brienne something like "there are maybe only three men in the seven kingdoms that could beat me in a fight".
Are there 3 specific individuals he had in mind when he was saying this? I don't remember it from the books.
I don't really know if he's a good fighter or not, but the one Dornishmen who's brother or relative was the something Star and he's like the Dark Star or something?? I would think Selmy too but he's really old now and isn't the fighter he used to be, can't really think of anyone else though that specifically stands out from the books who is still alive as being "better" than Jaime (before he loses his hand that is).
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On June 01 2012 12:31 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I keep forgetting to ask this question. In episode 18 Jaime mentions to Brienne something like "there are maybe only three men in the seven kingdoms that could beat me in a fight".
Are there 3 specific individuals he had in mind when he was saying this? I don't remember it from the books.
I don't really know if he's a good fighter or not, but the one Dornishmen who's brother or relative was the something Star and he's like the Dark Star or something?? I would think Selmy too but he's really old now and isn't the fighter he used to be, can't really think of anyone else though that specifically stands out from the books who is still alive as being "better" than Jaime (before he loses his hand that is).
Barristan Selmy in book 1 states that he could slice through the entire king's guard and all of the guards in the room (he also does so in the series) if he were so inclined and no one seemed to doubt his claim. (He was too disgusted with the entirety of the proceedings to want to help the regime or something along those lines). Jaime was one of the kingsguard present here.
The Hound, The Mountain, Barristan the Bold are probably the three Jaime was referring to. (They are who he is most familiar with as well, being Lannister employees or kingsguard). Loras Tyrell's brother (can't recall the name) is another possibility (Loras could outjoust anyone but his brother was far better with a sword).
Oberyn Martell + various others Jaime hasn't met.
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On June 01 2012 12:40 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:31 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I keep forgetting to ask this question. In episode 18 Jaime mentions to Brienne something like "there are maybe only three men in the seven kingdoms that could beat me in a fight".
Are there 3 specific individuals he had in mind when he was saying this? I don't remember it from the books.
I don't really know if he's a good fighter or not, but the one Dornishmen who's brother or relative was the something Star and he's like the Dark Star or something?? I would think Selmy too but he's really old now and isn't the fighter he used to be, can't really think of anyone else though that specifically stands out from the books who is still alive as being "better" than Jaime (before he loses his hand that is). Barristan Selmy in book 1 states that he could slice through the entire king's guard and all of the guards in the room (he also does so in the series) if he were so inclined and no one seemed to doubt his claim. (He was too disgusted with the entirety of the proceedings to want to help the regime or something along those lines). Jaime was one of the kingsguard present here. The Hound, The Mountain, Barristan the Bold are probably the three Jaime was referring to. (They are who he is most familiar with as well, being Lannister employees or kingsguard). Loras Tyrell's brother (can't recall the name) is another possibility (Loras could outjoust anyone but his brother was far better with a sword). Oberyn Martell + various others Jaime hasn't met.
Are you sure Jaime was there when Barristan Selmy was dismissed? I am pretty sure he had left Kings Landing long before Joffrey ascended to the throne.
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On June 01 2012 12:42 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:40 Nevuk wrote:On June 01 2012 12:31 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I keep forgetting to ask this question. In episode 18 Jaime mentions to Brienne something like "there are maybe only three men in the seven kingdoms that could beat me in a fight".
Are there 3 specific individuals he had in mind when he was saying this? I don't remember it from the books.
I don't really know if he's a good fighter or not, but the one Dornishmen who's brother or relative was the something Star and he's like the Dark Star or something?? I would think Selmy too but he's really old now and isn't the fighter he used to be, can't really think of anyone else though that specifically stands out from the books who is still alive as being "better" than Jaime (before he loses his hand that is). Barristan Selmy in book 1 states that he could slice through the entire king's guard and all of the guards in the room (he also does so in the series) if he were so inclined and no one seemed to doubt his claim. (He was too disgusted with the entirety of the proceedings to want to help the regime or something along those lines). Jaime was one of the kingsguard present here. The Hound, The Mountain, Barristan the Bold are probably the three Jaime was referring to. (They are who he is most familiar with as well, being Lannister employees or kingsguard). Loras Tyrell's brother (can't recall the name) is another possibility (Loras could outjoust anyone but his brother was far better with a sword). Oberyn Martell + various others Jaime hasn't met. Are you sure Jaime was there when Barristan Selmy was dismissed? I am pretty sure he had left Kings Landing long before Joffrey ascended to the throne.
No, he was forced to leave the kings guard by joffery, they wanted to give him a castle but the said eff that and went east.
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On June 01 2012 12:47 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
No, he was forced to leave the kings guard by joffery, they wanted to give him a castle but the said eff that and went east.
He was asking if Jaime was there when they dismissed Selmy, not if Selmy was there =P I honestly don't remember, the earlier books are a bit fuzzy... guess I should get to rereading them.
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I am pretty sure Jaime wasn't there because he was mad about the promotions. I seem to remember Jaime being promoted while he was captured to the Commander of the Kingsguard.
That said, the three have to be The Hound, The Mountain, and Barristan.
The Hound continually is praised in Jaime's POV. The Mountain he considers a freak of power. Barristan is constantly praised as well.
The only other praised is Loras, but this is mostly after this point in the story.
Oberyn, Garlan, and so on definitely were not his main thinking... though he c ould have just been being arrogant and not really thinking of three specific people either.
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Jaime left Kingslanding after the fight in the street w/ Ned. He wasn't in the throne room when Selmy was dismissed.
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On June 01 2012 12:51 Critter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:47 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
No, he was forced to leave the kings guard by joffery, they wanted to give him a castle but the said eff that and went east. He was asking if Jaime was there when they dismissed Selmy, not if Selmy was there =P I honestly don't remember, the earlier books are a bit fuzzy... guess I should get to rereading them.
joffery became king when robert died, which meant Jaime was away leading a lannister host or was captured.
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On June 01 2012 13:14 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:51 Critter wrote:On June 01 2012 12:47 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
No, he was forced to leave the kings guard by joffery, they wanted to give him a castle but the said eff that and went east. He was asking if Jaime was there when they dismissed Selmy, not if Selmy was there =P I honestly don't remember, the earlier books are a bit fuzzy... guess I should get to rereading them. joffery became king when robert died, which meant Jaime was away leading a lannister host or was captured.
Yeah, that's correct. Jaime wasn't there. Still, the Hound AND many guards (beyond just the 5 other kingsguard) were there. So one of the three we can almost be certain Jaime was referring to was there in addition to many others. If Jaime didn't think that the Hound could take him then his memory is very poor as the Hound tended to beat him in melees and jousts.
Of course part of Selmy's claim might have been that many people there wouldn't have dared attack Selmy just out of respect (some of the Kingsguard might have even sided with Selmy). The conflict was partially because the Hound was being added to the Kingsguard, no?
Jaime preferred Arthur Dayne to Barristan but I don't think he really differentiated that much between the fighting skills of the two.
This is all kind of reminiscent of the Tower of Joy stuff... I know it was Ned, Howland Reed and others vs Arthur Dayne and I forget who else... but it speaks very well of Ned + Howland's personal fighting skills that they managed to walk away alive at all, let alone with what appears to be few wounds. (Of course we still haven't met Howland... who for all we know could be mute and never be able to talk about what happened. GRRM would love to do something like that).
edit : Didn't Selmy kill a bunch of people on his way out who were sent to capture him? Or am I confusing him with the Hound?
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Ah, another thing I remembered was a Brienne pov from affoc. She said something along the lines of Jaime not touching a sword for a year, yet it took her all her strength to barely hold him off. Then she goes on to say: At full strength not a single knight can match him. Although, it's worth considering Sandor clegane was never knighted.
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On June 01 2012 12:47 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
(Of course we still haven't met Howland... who for all we know could be mute and never be able to talk about what happened. GRRM would love to do something like that).
edit : Didn't Selmy kill a bunch of people on his way out who were sent to capture him? Or am I confusing him with the Hound?
I didn't recall there was a Reed in Stark's group. I guess it makes snese though because the Starks and Reeds seem to be tight-knit. Surprised a Reed was a excellent swordsman though.
And yes, Selmy killed some goldcloaks who tried to arrest him since I guess Joffrey/Cersei weren't pleased with how he left.
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So, I have a question that is ahead of where the tv series is, but it's kind of been bugging me: (about a king's death ofc)
+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't gone back and checked. But if my memory serves I swore I remember reading that Joff was actually poisoned by Loras and the conspiracy was among Margaery , Loras, and the Queen of Thorns because they didn't want Margaery to have to marry Joff (and Tommen would be much more controllable for Margaery as well.)
That said, I thought Tyrion just lied to Jaime and said he was the one who poisoned Joff out of spite. But I'm currently halfway through DoD and Tyrion still seems to be saying he did it in his inner-monologue too... Is that just out of him being a bit crazy or what? Because I didn't think he had any part is Joff's death.
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On June 01 2012 14:28 Jonoman92 wrote:So, I have a question that is ahead of where the tv series is, but it's kind of been bugging me: (about a king's death ofc) + Show Spoiler +
I haven't gone back and checked. But if my memory serves I swore I remember reading that Joff was actually poisoned by Loras and the conspiracy was among Margaery , Loras, and the Queen of Thorns because they didn't want Margaery to have to marry Joff (and Tommen would be much more controllable for Margaery as well.)
That said, I thought Tyrion just lied to Jaime and said he was the one who poisoned Joff it out of spite. But I'm currently halfway through DoD and Tyrion still seems to be saying he did it in his inner-monologue too... Is that just out of him being a bit crazy or what? Because I didn't think he had any part is Joff's death.
I thought it was the Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger's plan.
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On June 01 2012 14:14 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
Ah, another thing I remembered was a Brienne pov from affoc. She said something along the lines of Jaime not touching a sword for a year, yet it took her all her strength to barely hold him off. Then she goes on to say: At full strength not a single knight can match him. Although, it's worth considering Sandor clegane was never knighted.
From Jaime's POV in SoS on that fight I think that Brienne was underestimating herself, as I'm pretty certain he states that he is unsure if he could've beaten her even in his peak condition.
Sandor refused knighthood several times, even as a member of the kingsguard (wasn't he the only member of it ever to not be a knight?). Jaime might beat Gregor who was a knight but I doubt he (or anyone else even remotely sane) would want that fight, as get hit once and you're basically dead.
Oh, and doesn't knight exclusively refer to people of the faith of the seven? Which means that Brienne's statement is less extreme than it seems. It excludes any followers of r'hllor or the old gods or atheists (Sandor? he doesn't exactly SAY he's an atheist but it fits his worldview). So northerners, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, etc. are all possibilities.
Which makes sense to me because Brienne really would have no knowledge of the relative fighting skill of the northerners (many of whom had much more actual fighting experience against the wildings and the Greyjoy rebellion than the average knight). It also excludes people in essos + ashai with whom she is unfamiliar. (consider the faceless men - Jaime might be able to beat one in a fight... but a faceless man isn't really going to be fighting you).
Also have to remember that Brienne's experience with fighting is mostly training, a few melees and fighting Jaime. She doesn't kill anyone until AFFC and isn't really experienced enough in world knowledge to know how broad the range of fighting skills are.
Jaime's training with Ilyn Payne seems to indicate that Ilyn is an incredibly skilled swordsman - even fighting offhanded while being trained; Jaime should have been able to reach a point where he wasn't being completely humiliated after weeks of training. (in the show they call Ilyn ser, indicating that he's a knight but I'm not sure if he was in the books).
edit : on the tower of joy :
It was used as a hideout by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, where he kept Lyanna Stark. Lyanna stayed there after Rhaegar left to lead his father, Aerys II's war against Robert Baratheon's rebellion. At the end of the War, Eddard Stark found his sister there, dying, after he and six of his companions (Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell) approached the tower, finding it guarded by three members of the Kingsguard: Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower.[...] Eddard Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors. Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make cairns for the dead. He took his sister's body back North with him so she could be buried with her brother Brandon and her father Rickard, but not before bringing Dawn to the Dayne castle at Starfall. With Ned's execution, Lord Reed is now the only survivor of the skirmish, and the only witness to Lyanna's promise.
and the actual text :
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy
So Howland is either a very capable fighter or just wasn't deemed important enough by the kingsguard to kill
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I don't think religion has anything to do with Knighthood as Barristan is training all of those children in Mereen in the 5th book for knighthood and he never places any emphasis on faith, just on honor/duty/swordsmanship/etc.
Also, I wouldn't necessarily pigeon-hole Sandor into being an atheist, his worldviews don't really seem to necessitate the belief or non-belief in a deity or deities (unless I'm forgetting a passage where he explicitly states he doesn't believe in them, which sounds familiar from the books but I'm not sure from which character - Tyrion maybe?).
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On June 01 2012 15:05 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 14:14 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
Ah, another thing I remembered was a Brienne pov from affoc. She said something along the lines of Jaime not touching a sword for a year, yet it took her all her strength to barely hold him off. Then she goes on to say: At full strength not a single knight can match him. Although, it's worth considering Sandor clegane was never knighted. Jaime's training with Ilyn Payne seems to indicate that Ilyn is an incredibly skilled swordsman - even fighting offhanded while being trained; Jaime should have been able to reach a point where he wasn't being completely humiliated after weeks of training. (in the show they call Ilyn ser, indicating that he's a knight but I'm not sure if he was in the books). edit : on the tower of joy : Show nested quote +It was used as a hideout by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, where he kept Lyanna Stark. Lyanna stayed there after Rhaegar left to lead his father, Aerys II's war against Robert Baratheon's rebellion. At the end of the War, Eddard Stark found his sister there, dying, after he and six of his companions (Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell) approached the tower, finding it guarded by three members of the Kingsguard: Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower.[...] Eddard Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors. Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make cairns for the dead. He took his sister's body back North with him so she could be buried with her brother Brandon and her father Rickard, but not before bringing Dawn to the Dayne castle at Starfall. With Ned's execution, Lord Reed is now the only survivor of the skirmish, and the only witness to Lyanna's promise.
and the actual text :
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_JoySo Howland is either a very capable fighter or just wasn't deemed important enough by the kingsguard to kill
I think you understimate how difficult it is to change hands. He's been using his right for his entire life. Just try to function normally with your offhand and see how you do. Its surprisingly clusmy, and and doing something that requires tremedous skill such as fighting with a sword would be incredibly difficult. Especially when going up against someone who's not at that disadvantage.
I dont think he's a bad swordsman, I just don't think ser Ilyn is anything special.
Also, that quote ... was that in the books? I just read that and ... its beautiful. ;_; Makes me a bit sad. And the way they're talking... all honorable and shit, not at all what you'd expect from people who you know are about to fight to the death. He even went and returned the sword.
I really want to reread these books.
On June 01 2012 13:57 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 13:14 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:On June 01 2012 12:51 Critter wrote:On June 01 2012 12:47 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
No, he was forced to leave the kings guard by joffery, they wanted to give him a castle but the said eff that and went east. This is all kind of reminiscent of the Tower of Joy stuff... I know it was Ned, Howland Reed and others vs Arthur Dayne and I forget who else... but it speaks very well of Ned + Howland's personal fighting skills that they managed to walk away alive at all, let alone with what appears to be few wounds. (Of course we still haven't met Howland... who for all we know could be mute and never be able to talk about what happened. GRRM would love to do something like that). edit : Didn't Selmy kill a bunch of people on his way out who were sent to capture him? Or am I confusing him with the Hound?
As far as Howland goes. Wasn't it stated that he was actually a small man? I thought it was implied that the only way they reallly won the fight is that they cheated. That is, Howland used poison or something. He is a crannog after all. They use poisoned darts and camoflauge. They don't do a straight up fight.
I don't think Howland had impressive skills with a melee weapon at all.
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"Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "
The wording from that quote makes it seem like they didn't cheat or use poison darts or anything so I still think Howland must have been at least somewhat talented at melee to have survived that.
I agree with you regarding Jaime/Illyn though.
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Remember the story Meera told Bran? About the young wolf and the wild wolf and bla bla bla? The main character was a small guy, who was buillied or something and the she-wolf came to his defense. The mainc haracter was their father and the she-wolf was Lyanna.
So the guy wans't big, but I guess that doesnt neccesariliy mean he was bad with a sword... but it doesn't help.
The wording only points out that it was 7v3. Maybe his sword was poisoned, not his dart. Or something.
I don't know, it feels really un-crannog to me that he'd be a badass swordsman.
maybe he used a net/spear. :D
EDIT: Shit. Fuck poison. Jojen's a goddamn Greeseer. I'm sure Howland has powers. Bran can warg into people.
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EPT
