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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 14 2012 17:52 Geo.Rion wrote:
Also, is it possible they'll make Dagmar Cleftjaw replace Reek? I mean it would be kinda difficult to make it believable that he foreseen the fall of Winterfell and went to Theon that eraly, but he keeps urging Theon for violence and has that grin when Theon behaves aggressively.
They've clearly replaced Reek's role as the little devil on Theon's shoulder with Dagmar. What other role did the original "Reek" actually serve? Obviously he's not going to reveal himself as Ramsay. And what do you mean by Reek foreseeing the fall of Winterfell?
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Well I've just finished a storm of swords.
Better start book 4.
mind blowing how good the books are
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The books are good but I think parts of the TV series are even better.
It's given GRRM a chance to rethink things and focus in on what really matters.
Like all that stuff with Arya when she was in the kitchens etc... was pretty boring imo. This Tywin-Arya interaction is much better and to the point.
Ygritte is brilliantly cast imo, can't wait for the Qhorin-Jon fight (I'm sure they will put that in at some point).
Again the TV series allows them to really focus on the interactions that matter (Jon-Ygriite) it's much more clear now why Jon makes the decisions that he does later. Why he cares so much for the wildlings - something that ultimately gets him killed(maybe!).
However Dany in the TV series is not really doing it for me. Being so much older she just comes across as immature a lot of the time. I think they should have changed her character to fit with her new age. She acts like a whiney teenager... except shes clearly an adult. It just doesn't work for me.
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I don't really think they're making Tywin out of character. In the same scene where he talks with Arya, he ordered the Mountain to go rampaging across the countryside. He's still ruthless, but I think there's simply a part of him that is amused by Arya. He's fairly sure that she isn't who she says she is and he has no reason to believe she can be an actual threat (or that she's Arya. I' don't think he's ever seen her and I'm not sure he'd remember if he did). Arya's an smart girl who shows more intelligence and wit than many of the oafish relatives/cousins/underlings he's commanding. These scenes are more just humanizing Tywin a bit, as we don't really get to see him except through the eyes of people who don't really like him.
Or I might just like the scenes because they're extremely well done. Maisie Williams and Charles Dance do a fantastic job with these scenes.
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Whats cool about Tywin is that he wasn't a view point character so we don't know really whats going on in his head, we only get to see his tough exterior. The show writers are taking the liberty of using Arya to break through those walls and see what his motivations really are. You can't say they're changing his character because we never really knew his character inside and out. It makes sense, Charles Dance is doing an awesome job as Tywin so they should milk him for all hes worth.
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I really hope they get the Catelyn and Robb stories right. First off, it seems like Catelyn might release Jaime right away, which would be out of character because in the books she was driven to release Jaime only after she heard that Bran and Rickon were killed. And then with Robb he only fell in love with the girl after he was injured and taken care of her, so because of the circumstance he broke his vow.
In short, Robb and Catelyn were driven to do stupid things because of extreme circumstances, and I have a feeling that may not happen with the show.
On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
Or I might just like the scenes because they're extremely well done. Maisie Williams and Charles Dance do a fantastic job with these scenes.
I think it is this with me. Tywin is being completely out of character with opening up to a serving girl who he knows is a liar. Tywin wouldn't trust her so easily and would not open up as Tywin basically never opens up to anyone.
I like the scenes, though, simply because the acting is terrific.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
I don't really think they're making Tywin out of character. In the same scene where he talks with Arya, he ordered the Mountain to go rampaging across the countryside. He's still ruthless, but I think there's simply a part of him that is amused by Arya. He's fairly sure that she isn't who she says she is and he has no reason to believe she can be an actual threat (or that she's Arya. I' don't think he's ever seen her and I'm not sure he'd remember if he did). Arya's an smart girl who shows more intelligence and wit than many of the oafish relatives/cousins/underlings he's commanding. These scenes are more just humanizing Tywin a bit, as we don't really get to see him except through the eyes of people who don't really like him.
Or I might just like the scenes because they're extremely well done. Maisie Williams and Charles Dance do a fantastic job with these scenes.
I think the show has made it very clear that Tywin knows what Arya is, but because as far as he knows Arya Stark is still their hostage in Kings Landing (and he presumes his daughter would tell him if that were otherwise), he doesn't know who his serving girl actually is.
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On May 15 2012 06:45 happyness wrote:I really hope they get the Catelyn and Robb stories right. First off, it seems like Catelyn might release Jaime right away, which would be out of character because in the books she was driven to release Jaime only after she heard that Bran and Rickon were killed. And then with Robb he only fell in love with the girl after he was injured and taken care of her, so because of the circumstance he broke his vow. In short, Robb and Catelyn were driven to do stupid things because of extreme circumstances, and I have a feeling that may not happen with the show. Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
Or I might just like the scenes because they're extremely well done. Maisie Williams and Charles Dance do a fantastic job with these scenes. I think it is this with me. Tywin is being completely out of character with opening up to a serving girl who he knows is a liar. Tywin wouldn't trust her so easily and would not open up as Tywin basically never opens up to anyone. I like the scenes, though, simply because the acting is terrific.
Forcat im not sure if they will follw te book. But for robb i am sure it will be something like: get hurt, thinks brothers die. The girl treats his wounds and turns into let's fuck which i don't mind. For cat if jaime is released before the "death" of bran and rickon then producers must be on crack TT
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Just realize (i.e. just looked in up of AWOIAF) The crag is the seat of house Westerling. Cheesy reveal incoming...
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On May 14 2012 18:31 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 12:18 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Kind of odd of Catelyn Stark to lecture Jaime on war she started. The Lannisters started it when they cut off Ned Stark's head. You can't ask the Starks to just take that with their underpants down.
I could be mistaken, but I think he was referring to Catelyn taking Tyrion? Because she thinks he tried to murder Bran, because Bran saw Jaime and Cersei... Which means... The lannisters started it anyways :/
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On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
I don't really think they're making Tywin out of character. In the same scene where he talks with Arya, he ordered the Mountain to go rampaging across the countryside. He's still ruthless, but I think there's simply a part of him that is amused by Arya.
He's laughing and smiling. He's warm in front of her. That's not Tywin. Yes he wasn't a POV character but we've learned a lot about him from his children, Genna and other people. Jaime didn't even think it was right when he was posed with a smirk on his face at his funeral. Tywin is supposed to be very cold. Season 1 got him down to a tee. The writers of the show are just going out of their way to try to make every character more rounded (except Joffrey) but they aren't doing it right.
Lets even forget for a second about the books as a reference. Tywin's changes aren't bad in that regard because his scenes with Arya are very good. TV Cersei on the other hand is a mess. One minute they play her as she is in the books, threatening Tyrion and yelling or taking joy in discussing killing Robb right in front of Sansa. The next she's best buddies with Sansa telling her its ok not to love Joffrey because he's evil and having a BFF moment with Tyrion about her incest with Jaime (which she never openly shared with anyone). Jaime also admitted to the incest in the show in front of Cat and Brienne (who's a complete stranger to him) which is very strange, because when confronted by Robb he doesn't give a direct answer.
I just don't see the need to change some of the great things in the story. Why/how did Ser Rodrick come back to Winterfell alone? what did he expect would happen when he heard Winterfell was taken by the Ironmen?? Why did they downplay the power struggle between Cersei and Tyrion in KL? Why was it necessary to go into "Evil Joffrey is Evil" so many times, like with the whores and all that? its not like the viewers will forget and then go "oh yeah, that Joffrey guy is evil isn't he".
meh.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Yeah, the Cersei vs Tyrion was one of the better parts of book 2... sad that they skimped on it.
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For what it is worth he did admit to being the father of Cersei's children and say the line about in a way being more honorable than the great Ned with regard to loyalty to his lover and having only ever slept with Cersei. Other than the location that scene was one of the few remaining ones that is very true to the book; more than a couple lines taken word for word.
At that point he pretty well figured he was going to die, and besides which he had progressed well into his new found "really don't give a damn" policy towards the game and lies, and she had gotten him drunk.
Making him a murderer/kinslayer, ouch. Now there is a change I'll confidently call terrible and the writers fools for thinking it was a good idea. Did they think it didn't matter since the character that guy was representing dies anyway? Where was GRRM to consult them on that one?
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Hmm yeah I enjoyed the episode, and so torn about Tywin and Arya stuff, because it is fun to watch, and captures Arya well, but shows Tywin in a different light to what I expect, as many people have noted.
I think that whilst all the stuff in Qarth is a bit...weird...and so different from the book, it seems to serve as a plot. House of the undying better not suck.
All the john and ygritte stuff felt...pointless, like, they could have put all those parts into one or two segments rather than 4 or 5. That being said, was fun to watch, and omg ygritte is so darn hot...O_O
And reek...well...yknow......not sure how Winterfell will be lost now exactly, but reek I guess is not hyper important other than that, as long as Theon is reek later. That being said, not sure how whitebeard and theon as reek before the reveal will work....but maybe it just won't.
Also gah, I really liked Jamie in the books, I thought he was well written, and his development and change is pretty good. At this point Brienne feels all wrong, and Jamie is a bit too mean, and not sure how he will lose his hand and all, but it better not be a major change. Blackwater next week? They cut out the massive chain tyrion was making huh? Unless they dropped a subtle line or two and I missed it.
EDIT: Also somebody above said that the show makes it clear that Tywin knows who Arya is. I don't believe that. Unless the character is completely messed up.
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Tywin does not know that Arya is not in their custody in Kings Landing so it would be very hard for him to suspect that she is his cup bearer even though he has pegged her for a noble northern girl.
I thought the episode with the battle of the blackwater was the one GRRM wrote and the one he wrote is nine, so the week after next. Also preview showed Tywin leaving Harrenhall next episode, it would seem a bit quick to have that and the battle itself in the same episode. Finally, without encroaching into a lot of book three content they wouldn't fill two episodes with post battle events. Leaving Tyrion's fate in particular unknown to viewers is a good cliffhanger, I imagine they will plan to keep it intact. With two post battle episodes though that would be hard. They also wouldn't want their emmy-bait champion either left out or doing scenes delirious in a bed for long. Unless it turned into some kind of Tysha and relationship between the Lannister boys exposition but...no, they have avoided flashback scenes and they already established reasonably well that Jaime is the one person who respects Tyrion and vice versa and told the (Tywin's lie version) Tysha story.
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On May 15 2012 07:08 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
I don't really think they're making Tywin out of character. In the same scene where he talks with Arya, he ordered the Mountain to go rampaging across the countryside. He's still ruthless, but I think there's simply a part of him that is amused by Arya. He's laughing and smiling. He's warm in front of her. That's not Tywin. Yes he wasn't a POV character but we've learned a lot about him from his children, Genna and other people. Jaime didn't even think it was right when he was posed with a smirk on his face at his funeral. Tywin is supposed to be very cold. Season 1 got him down to a tee. The writers of the show are just going out of their way to try to make every character more rounded (except Joffrey) but they aren't doing it right. Lets even forget for a second about the books as a reference. Tywin's changes aren't bad in that regard because his scenes with Arya are very good. TV Cersei on the other hand is a mess. One minute they play her as she is in the books, threatening Tyrion and yelling or taking joy in discussing killing Robb right in front of Sansa. The next she's best buddies with Sansa telling her its ok not to love Joffrey because he's evil and having a BFF moment with Tyrion about her incest with Jaime (which she never openly shared with anyone). Jaime also admitted to the incest in the show in front of Cat and Brienne (who's a complete stranger to him) which is very strange, because when confronted by Robb he doesn't give a direct answer. I just don't see the need to change some of the great things in the story. Why/how did Ser Rodrick come back to Winterfell alone? what did he expect would happen when he heard Winterfell was taken by the Ironmen?? Why did they downplay the power struggle between Cersei and Tyrion in KL? Why was it necessary to go into "Evil Joffrey is Evil" so many times, like with the whores and all that? its not like the viewers will forget and then go "oh yeah, that Joffrey guy is evil isn't he". meh.
For what it's worth, Tywin in the show tells Arya that she reminds him of his daughter, Cersei. I would imagine there are very few high-born out there who have a tomboyish attitude like Arya and perhaps a younger Cersei. I think when Tywin saw Arya among the prisoners as a girl dressed as a boy, he was intrigued; he finds Arya harmless and is therefore less closed-off. If Arya does remind him of Cersei, then it does seem plausible he is less of a tyrant to her.
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On May 15 2012 07:08 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:35 OrderlyChaos wrote:
I just don't see the need to change some of the great things in the story. Why/how did Ser Rodrick come back to Winterfell alone? what did he expect would happen when he heard Winterfell was taken by the Ironmen?? Why did they downplay the power struggle between Cersei and Tyrion in KL? Why was it necessary to go into "Evil Joffrey is Evil" so many times, like with the whores and all that? its not like the viewers will forget and then go "oh yeah, that Joffrey guy is evil isn't he".
meh.
Roddrick had liberated Torren's Square and was riding back to Winterfell with some small bodyguard probably and got jumped.
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Why does Dagmar hold the nut shells and say 'I think I've found what we're looking for' ?
The audience knows that Rickon eats nuts, but how does Dagmar know that?
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Does the nutshell clue that children (who eat nuts) are hiding, and any kids are better than no kids?
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Does he only hold the nutshells incidentally as a prop excuse to bring Theon away from Lewin?
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Something else?
The scene rubs me the wrong way. What am I missing?
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I do not think you are missing anything. It just didn't entirely work. What it tries to replace is Ramsay-Reek pulling Theon to the side to show that he has some stark sigil brooches and capes with which to dress the miller's boys in and help them pass for the corpses of the Starks.
With to the foresight of knowing what happened thanks to the books I think we can go with option 2-3 from your list, since Theon got it instantly and had Luwin sent away.
I think the truest sign of how awkwardly they did that is in the reaction of some viewers-only. For it to not be entirely clear that those corpses are not the Starks means that the earlier scene failed.
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On May 15 2012 14:31 mmp wrote:
Why does Dagmar hold the nut shells and say 'I think I've found what we're looking for' ?
The audience knows that Rickon eats nuts, but how does Dagmar know that?
or
Does the nutshell clue that children (who eat nuts) are hiding, and any kids are better than no kids?
or
Does he only hold the nutshells incidentally as a prop excuse to bring Theon away from Lewin?
or
Something else?
The scene rubs me the wrong way. What am I missing?
I can't believe I didn't think about that. Some innocuous walnuts and suddenly OMFG RICKON WAS HERE!1!1. It makes 0 sense.
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EPT
