Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book.
On November 26 2013 10:19 BlackMagister wrote: He killed Martinez because he didn't want to leave and was afraid of Marinez revealing his past. Decides to leave changes his mind. Gives it a go with the new leader, but sees him as incompetent kills him and assumes leadership becoming the new leader returning to his Governor state of mind where killing other survivors to insure the safety of his own group is the an acceptable course of action. The place was safe for a long time, but so were a lot of other places survivors have stayed at just like the camp they thought of robbing. The prison is a lot safer than the place they are staying at, he has a tank, he thinks it will be easy to take so he'll do it and there is the added revenge incentive.
Read that paragraph again and explain to me how a person that's even remotely sane could ever act like that.
"Oh damn that guy could tell everyone what a monster I was, better kill him!" "Oh damn the new leader is a pussy better get the hell out of here!" "Oh whoops we're living in a zombie world and we have higher survival chances in a group better get back." "Welp the new leader is still a pussy better kill him." "Welp might as well make sure I'm the leader while I'm at it. You fine with that, brother of the guy I just killed?" "Whatevs." "Oh hey there's that prison that's probably totally safe better start a war with my brand new group of blind followers."
There's just so much wrong with that series of events. At best, the governor is clinically insane. Which makes for a boring character, as he just randomly does stupid violent irrational stuff because.. well, he's insane. That's it. There's nothing more to it. At worst, he's a terribly written sane character whose characteristics change with no rhyme or reason to get the maximum amount of drama and action.
You're speaking from the perspective of a rational, law abiding society where equality is enforced. If two people have a difference of opinion, that difference co-exists. Everything you described happens all the time in criminal societies, because they're direct solutions for problems involving a power struggle. Whoever is weaker gets killed, because the person who is capable of killing them prioritizes their personal gain over a life, and there is nothing to stop them. You don't HAVE to deal with someone, you can literally just kill them and there will be no consequence for it in the TWD world. It's brutal, it's evil, and it's definitely inhumane, but it's not insanity. There is clear logic as to why it's done. If anything, you're missing what ACTUALLY makes the governor to be insane.
If the world of TWD were sheer anarchy, then yes, you might be right. But everything we discuss happened in a properly working community of 20+ people. And that community is large enough that you can not just kill someone without any repercussions at all. That's why the gov hid the bodies and lied about what happened, or he would have been lynched.
This is not a group of criminals with a strictly darwinian viewpoint on things, this is a community of normal people that want to survive, with an insane guy in their midst.
The world IS sheer anarchy. Communities of 20+ people are routinely wiped out by other communities of 20+ people. Theres no law in determining who is right and wrong, only who was stronger and more cunning. The exact same environment exists inside the same communities, where people who want to believe in the best of people are the easiest to be deceived.
We don't know how long he was with the community. You act like he walked in the day before and suddenly Peter is dead. If that was the case then they'd probably suspect him. For all we know it was several months. That, and given how often people tend to die in TWD, it is most certainly believable that the excuses he manipulated everyone to believe are plausible to a community of "normal people" who have probably witnessed more death than the show could ever depict. When TDog sacrifices himself to save Carol, and Carol and the audience are the only witnesses to how he died, do we then expect rick and the other characters to suspect that Carol shot his leg and left him to be eaten while she fled for her life? No. Why then when someone actually DOES commit a murder, that a character in the show has to have clairvoyance and immediately suspect there was murder at play in someone's death? When Dale "assumes" that Shane murdered Otis I just wanted to flip my TV it was so dumb.
I don't know how you could watch a crime drama with knowledge the characters in the show don't have. Can't a killer be cunning? It all plays into what the Governor is supposed to be: The one guy in the TWD universe able to convince people he has their best intentions in mind, while secretly hiding from them the brutality of how he does it. His character is perfectly fine, maybe it's just bad acting failing to depict his charisma, but it doesn't make him completely insane, it makes him manipulative and cunning.
On November 27 2013 08:55 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Well if the amount of discussion is any indication the show is at least controversial enough to spark some interest. Even though most of it is negative.
Im just glad they finally come to the point where they should have been last season. I was complaining a lot about the filler plot about the flue and now you see how relevant that plotline was. At least now the wheel is moving :D
Im suprised that so many defend the governor. Its just super unecessary to fight each other all the time. The real enemies are the zombies. You need every capable person to fight that threat. People like him endanger humanity.
Zombies are just a natural obstacle to the real enemy which is hunger and thirst. It's really difficult to put it into context when the audience is given few to no opportunities to witness for themselves what the characters have to eat/drink and in what supply. If they actually portrayed people as having to eat/drink, and the less fortunate who are on the verge of starvation and not well-fed 24/7, then the brutality of humanity would be much more believable. The various zombie sandboxes are a really cool peak into the mindset of surviving in that kind of world.
Humanity has basically been reset 6,000 years. Safe places from zombies aren't what prevent people from being able to settle down and thrive, it's the lack of food. Until people are actually able to stay in one place and keep themselves fed and more, there is always going to be a struggle for resources. It doesn't matter how impregnable your home is against wandering herds if you'd simply starve staying within it.
On November 27 2013 07:23 Holdinga wrote: Damn,,, I read so much negative opinions here in this thread on the Governor...
I just want to share my opinion:
I completely loved the last two episodes. The Governor is my favorite characters of all characters from all seasons so far.
I'm not homosexual, but I think I love him. I really admire him.
so you admire a person who just kills other people because they didnt do what he wanted or they did not lead the way he likes to ? Man thats some sick way dude... :D
Anyway most people here are right ye why no freakin holes and GG no freakin zomb would have destroyed the fence atleast they builded a huge door for the prison :O
Well, in my eyes, he is the perfect Alpha Male in the circumstances of a zombie apocalypse. I can clarify myself on that, but I don't think I need to...
On November 26 2013 10:19 BlackMagister wrote: He killed Martinez because he didn't want to leave and was afraid of Marinez revealing his past. Decides to leave changes his mind. Gives it a go with the new leader, but sees him as incompetent kills him and assumes leadership becoming the new leader returning to his Governor state of mind where killing other survivors to insure the safety of his own group is the an acceptable course of action. The place was safe for a long time, but so were a lot of other places survivors have stayed at just like the camp they thought of robbing. The prison is a lot safer than the place they are staying at, he has a tank, he thinks it will be easy to take so he'll do it and there is the added revenge incentive.
Read that paragraph again and explain to me how a person that's even remotely sane could ever act like that.
"Oh damn that guy could tell everyone what a monster I was, better kill him!" "Oh damn the new leader is a pussy better get the hell out of here!" "Oh whoops we're living in a zombie world and we have higher survival chances in a group better get back." "Welp the new leader is still a pussy better kill him." "Welp might as well make sure I'm the leader while I'm at it. You fine with that, brother of the guy I just killed?" "Whatevs." "Oh hey there's that prison that's probably totally safe better start a war with my brand new group of blind followers."
There's just so much wrong with that series of events. At best, the governor is clinically insane. Which makes for a boring character, as he just randomly does stupid violent irrational stuff because.. well, he's insane. That's it. There's nothing more to it. At worst, he's a terribly written sane character whose characteristics change with no rhyme or reason to get the maximum amount of drama and action.
You're speaking from the perspective of a rational, law abiding society where equality is enforced. If two people have a difference of opinion, that difference co-exists. Everything you described happens all the time in criminal societies, because they're direct solutions for problems involving a power struggle. Whoever is weaker gets killed, because the person who is capable of killing them prioritizes their personal gain over a life, and there is nothing to stop them. You don't HAVE to deal with someone, you can literally just kill them and there will be no consequence for it in the TWD world. It's brutal, it's evil, and it's definitely inhumane, but it's not insanity. There is clear logic as to why it's done. If anything, you're missing what ACTUALLY makes the governor to be insane.
If the world of TWD were sheer anarchy, then yes, you might be right. But everything we discuss happened in a properly working community of 20+ people. And that community is large enough that you can not just kill someone without any repercussions at all. That's why the gov hid the bodies and lied about what happened, or he would have been lynched.
This is not a group of criminals with a strictly darwinian viewpoint on things, this is a community of normal people that want to survive, with an insane guy in their midst.
The world IS sheer anarchy. Communities of 20+ people are routinely wiped out by other communities of 20+ people. Theres no law in determining who is right and wrong, only who was stronger and more cunning. The exact same environment exists inside the same communities, where people who want to believe in the best of people are the easiest to be deceived.
We don't know how long he was with the community. You act like he walked in the day before and suddenly Peter is dead. If that was the case then they'd probably suspect him. For all we know it was several months. That, and given how often people tend to die in TWD, it is most certainly believable that the excuses he manipulated everyone to believe are plausible to a community of "normal people" who have probably witnessed more death than the show could ever depict. When TDog sacrifices himself to save Carol, and Carol and the audience are the only witnesses to how he died, do we then expect rick and the other characters to suspect that Carol shot his leg and left him to be eaten while she fled for her life? No. Why then when someone actually DOES commit a murder, that a character in the show has to have clairvoyance and immediately suspect there was murder at play in someone's death? When Dale "assumes" that Shane murdered Otis I just wanted to flip my TV it was so dumb.
I don't know how you could watch a crime drama with knowledge the characters in the show don't have. Can't a killer be cunning? It all plays into what the Governor is supposed to be: The one guy in the TWD universe able to convince people he has their best intentions in mind, while secretly hiding from them the brutality of how he does it. His character is perfectly fine, maybe it's just bad acting failing to depict his charisma, but it doesn't make him completely insane, it makes him manipulative and cunning.
There's multiple points to address: * Yeah, we don't know how long he was in the community. Which would be another thing to criticize the show for, because they didn't bother much trying to tell us. It sure felt like everything happened within a few days, but that would be entirely unbelievable. *The world is anarchy, kind of. But the communities within the world are not. Again, you cannot kill someone just like that within a community. You could kill the entire community, I guess, and then there would be nobody left to lynch you. But you cannot kill just one guy and expect to get away with it. *There's a thing called trust. People trust Carol, and would not assume her to kill people (unless you're Rick, I suppose). The gov, however, is the new guy, and they haven't shown a single scene of him actually being part of the community instead of being the new guy outsider. That not one but two community leaders die within a short time span without any evidence whatsoever other than his word should make any reasonably smart person suspicious. And I agree about Dale magically figuring out Shane killing Otis. That was a bit weird. *And here's the main point: Yes, the gov is portrayed as smart and manipulative and easily able to direct the masses. Thing is: He's none of these things. The character is just not written that well that it would convince me for even a second that he could do any of these things and get away with them. He's not cunning, he's at times blatantly obviously evil, right there for everyone to see. I mean.. Martinez brought him back into the camp and offered him leadership for fuck's sake. After he has seen the Gov randomly gun down innocent people out of rage. Just like that. But hey, he "changed", right? Surely that wouldn't happen again.
There's being rough and tough in a rough and tough world, killing when you have to kill, yadda yadda.. and there's badly written characters that kill and get away with because the plot demands it. The gov is clearly the latter case.
On November 28 2013 00:23 Nekovivie wrote: Doesn't Dale assume Shane did that because he also saw Shane pointing his rifle at Rick?
Or am I getting those two events back to front, I can't remember the chronology.
I think Dale suspecting Shane didn't really come out of thin air. He had never really liked Shane, and Shane had been acting increasingly violent and irrational. Add that to Shane's behaviour at the funeral and it doesn't seem like such a stretch. But it is 2 years ago since I saw season 2, so I am a bit hazy on the details too. I don't remember it being outlandish of Dale to accuse Shane.
Rick suspecting Carol did come out of the blue, though. He saw a handprint in blood. Presumably it was smallish (he measured it with his own hand). And from there he deduced it was Carol (unless he was just planning on asking all the women in the camp whether it was them).
On November 28 2013 00:23 Nekovivie wrote: Doesn't Dale assume Shane did that because he also saw Shane pointing his rifle at Rick?
Or am I getting those two events back to front, I can't remember the chronology.
Rick suspecting Carol did come out of the blue, though. He saw a handprint in blood. Presumably it was smallish (he measured it with his own hand). And from there he deduced it was Carol (unless he was just planning on asking all the women in the camp whether it was them).
Carol was also uncharacteristically reckless going out beyond the fence to fix the hose. I think there were a couple of other red flags too in her behavior (knife classes for kids - taking things upon herself without consulting the group). It seemed likely they'd been killed with a knife and there's a pretty short-list of small handed people in the group capable of that kind of murder. I can see how Rick might suspect her.
On November 27 2013 04:38 EleanorRIgby wrote: a gazillion ways in a late zombie apocalypse.... get real
All these other people in that community seemed to have done well enough without any mass murder.
Until he showed up and started murdering them, of course.
If the writers would do that, just imagine how fucking boring it would be and how fucking retarded for a show like this to have no antagonist other than brainless zombies.
LOL dont you get it? he is a psychopath? He thinks what he does is justified, he acts for himself and will do whatever it takes as if there is "morality" in a apocalyptic zombie world duh.
If you want to understand how psychopaths work, watch hannibal.
I cant believe how many people hate this show, complain and nit pick as if you have a choice. whiners! Whiners Everywhere! LOL if you're not pleased then tough luck, it's a show and that's how writers choose to portray the story. They dont owe you shit. If you are not satisfied then go somewhere else.
To answer some stupid questions here are my justification, maybe it would make sense to your whining asses. Maybe try to think 1st how it become to be, use your fucking imagination.
Gov killed Martinez - simple, he is a threat to his image to the new family/Group. He knows all the shit about the Gov and when people know he might get axed. He also is threathen by Martinez, saying "if you were the only one there in the pit, I would have left you". Last, He knows he cant trust Martinez. Simple as that.
Kills Peter - He thinks he is weak (in his standards) and as a psychopath he approves of this. His "principles" of survival of the fittest [as repeatedly mention throughout the whole show ("I was surviving"-gov) ] is doing all things possible to survive, survive at all cost even to the point of killing other people just for the sake of surviving. This is justified because he knows deep inside this is proper, this is thinking as a psychopath.
Goes back to camp after seeing the puddle of zombies - He is reminded that shit is all around them, everywhere he goes. He is reminded that the situation is much better in the camp (strenght in numbers) than on their own (inexperienced family). So he goes back and proceeds to kill them weaklings as he is not satisfied of his idea of leadership and survival.
Attacks prison - Other than pure revenge, I am pretty sure one of his reasons is for him to be able to provide better survival to his new family. His new family, little girl and lover is 1st priority, others are just his "pawns" and he is king (as symbolized in chess pieces - and it was fucking obvious, little girl draws the eye patch.) I think it was pretty obvious he was killing 2 birds in one stone and the other reason that maybe let he decide it was a good idea was they have a muddafucking TANK. So he thinks it would be too easy.
Keeps pete's bro alive - he can see potential in him, being able to decide to kill a whole camp for supplies? hmmm "thats a good trait to have in his idea of survival"-thinks gov. He embraces the dark side, as Sith lords would choose their apprentices.
Camp killed nobody heard - well fuck it was a big fucking forest? who the fuck knows? maybe just maybe it was not like 5 mins of walk and they came back? maybe they went to a hunt for supplies and decided to go pass them again because it was along the way back home and when they did pass them again everybody died? well fuck if you are thinking the time span from that scene to the scene they came back was just 5 minutes of "walking distance" then you are just retarded, use some common sense please and some imagination can work well, Jeez.
I am very amazed how these whiners would want to have all of the story handed to them like spoon feeding, try to use you imagination or common sense to make sense of it, it is not like they can fully tell the story or the boring parts in 45mins.
On November 27 2013 04:38 EleanorRIgby wrote: a gazillion ways in a late zombie apocalypse.... get real
All these other people in that community seemed to have done well enough without any mass murder.
Until he showed up and started murdering them, of course.
If the writers would do that, just imagine how fucking boring it would be and how fucking retarded for a show like this to have no antagonist other than brainless zombies.
To the contrary, there's all kinds of really interesting stuff that could happen if they would introduce some intelligent characters that don't constantly get spontaneously assaulted by zombies and randomly murderous people. It would make for a truly post-apocalyptic show.
But it's much easier to let them walk into traps all the time to get another 5 minutes of action.
On November 27 2013 04:38 EleanorRIgby wrote: a gazillion ways in a late zombie apocalypse.... get real
All these other people in that community seemed to have done well enough without any mass murder.
Until he showed up and started murdering them, of course.
If the writers would do that, just imagine how fucking boring it would be and how fucking retarded for a show like this to have no antagonist other than brainless zombies.
To the contrary, there's all kinds of really interesting stuff that could happen if they would introduce some intelligent characters that don't constantly get spontaneously assaulted by zombies and randomly murderous people. It would make for a truly post-apocalyptic show.
But it's much easier to let them walk into traps all the time to get another 5 minutes of action.
The thing with TWD is that they are trying to make it a horror genre type of show rather than... Whatever. The mystery and suspense makes people release endorphins, and as a result people get addicted to it. Intellectual stuff which requires careful planning and attention to the plot turns off the large percentage of the population that needs instant gratification.
Put it this way - with limited time in the day and a busy schedule where you could be going out to parties, spending time with the wife and kids or at work making money - would you rather watch the below video in 15 seconds, or do you want to spend a whole hour watching a documentary about whales?
On November 26 2013 10:19 BlackMagister wrote: He killed Martinez because he didn't want to leave and was afraid of Marinez revealing his past. Decides to leave changes his mind. Gives it a go with the new leader, but sees him as incompetent kills him and assumes leadership becoming the new leader returning to his Governor state of mind where killing other survivors to insure the safety of his own group is the an acceptable course of action. The place was safe for a long time, but so were a lot of other places survivors have stayed at just like the camp they thought of robbing. The prison is a lot safer than the place they are staying at, he has a tank, he thinks it will be easy to take so he'll do it and there is the added revenge incentive.
Read that paragraph again and explain to me how a person that's even remotely sane could ever act like that.
"Oh damn that guy could tell everyone what a monster I was, better kill him!" "Oh damn the new leader is a pussy better get the hell out of here!" "Oh whoops we're living in a zombie world and we have higher survival chances in a group better get back." "Welp the new leader is still a pussy better kill him." "Welp might as well make sure I'm the leader while I'm at it. You fine with that, brother of the guy I just killed?" "Whatevs." "Oh hey there's that prison that's probably totally safe better start a war with my brand new group of blind followers."
There's just so much wrong with that series of events. At best, the governor is clinically insane. Which makes for a boring character, as he just randomly does stupid violent irrational stuff because.. well, he's insane. That's it. There's nothing more to it. At worst, he's a terribly written sane character whose characteristics change with no rhyme or reason to get the maximum amount of drama and action.
You're speaking from the perspective of a rational, law abiding society where equality is enforced. If two people have a difference of opinion, that difference co-exists. Everything you described happens all the time in criminal societies, because they're direct solutions for problems involving a power struggle. Whoever is weaker gets killed, because the person who is capable of killing them prioritizes their personal gain over a life, and there is nothing to stop them. You don't HAVE to deal with someone, you can literally just kill them and there will be no consequence for it in the TWD world. It's brutal, it's evil, and it's definitely inhumane, but it's not insanity. There is clear logic as to why it's done. If anything, you're missing what ACTUALLY makes the governor to be insane.
If the world of TWD were sheer anarchy, then yes, you might be right. But everything we discuss happened in a properly working community of 20+ people. And that community is large enough that you can not just kill someone without any repercussions at all. That's why the gov hid the bodies and lied about what happened, or he would have been lynched.
This is not a group of criminals with a strictly darwinian viewpoint on things, this is a community of normal people that want to survive, with an insane guy in their midst.
The world IS sheer anarchy. Communities of 20+ people are routinely wiped out by other communities of 20+ people. Theres no law in determining who is right and wrong, only who was stronger and more cunning. The exact same environment exists inside the same communities, where people who want to believe in the best of people are the easiest to be deceived.
We don't know how long he was with the community. You act like he walked in the day before and suddenly Peter is dead. If that was the case then they'd probably suspect him. For all we know it was several months. That, and given how often people tend to die in TWD, it is most certainly believable that the excuses he manipulated everyone to believe are plausible to a community of "normal people" who have probably witnessed more death than the show could ever depict. When TDog sacrifices himself to save Carol, and Carol and the audience are the only witnesses to how he died, do we then expect rick and the other characters to suspect that Carol shot his leg and left him to be eaten while she fled for her life? No. Why then when someone actually DOES commit a murder, that a character in the show has to have clairvoyance and immediately suspect there was murder at play in someone's death? When Dale "assumes" that Shane murdered Otis I just wanted to flip my TV it was so dumb.
I don't know how you could watch a crime drama with knowledge the characters in the show don't have. Can't a killer be cunning? It all plays into what the Governor is supposed to be: The one guy in the TWD universe able to convince people he has their best intentions in mind, while secretly hiding from them the brutality of how he does it. His character is perfectly fine, maybe it's just bad acting failing to depict his charisma, but it doesn't make him completely insane, it makes him manipulative and cunning.
There's multiple points to address: * Yeah, we don't know how long he was in the community. Which would be another thing to criticize the show for, because they didn't bother much trying to tell us. It sure felt like everything happened within a few days, but that would be entirely unbelievable. *The world is anarchy, kind of. But the communities within the world are not. Again, you cannot kill someone just like that within a community. You could kill the entire community, I guess, and then there would be nobody left to lynch you. But you cannot kill just one guy and expect to get away with it. *There's a thing called trust. People trust Carol, and would not assume her to kill people (unless you're Rick, I suppose). The gov, however, is the new guy, and they haven't shown a single scene of him actually being part of the community instead of being the new guy outsider. That not one but two community leaders die within a short time span without any evidence whatsoever other than his word should make any reasonably smart person suspicious. And I agree about Dale magically figuring out Shane killing Otis. That was a bit weird. *And here's the main point: Yes, the gov is portrayed as smart and manipulative and easily able to direct the masses. Thing is: He's none of these things. The character is just not written that well that it would convince me for even a second that he could do any of these things and get away with them. He's not cunning, he's at times blatantly obviously evil, right there for everyone to see. I mean.. Martinez brought him back into the camp and offered him leadership for fuck's sake. After he has seen the Gov randomly gun down innocent people out of rage. Just like that. But hey, he "changed", right? Surely that wouldn't happen again.
There's being rough and tough in a rough and tough world, killing when you have to kill, yadda yadda.. and there's badly written characters that kill and get away with because the plot demands it. The gov is clearly the latter case.
point by point,
*I agree, it's something to criticize the show for.
*You have perfect information of the murder but the characters don't. Unless something tips them off and cause them to suspect through evidence that a murder was at play. there is no reason for them to suspect the governor murdered anyone. Of course if they found out he did it they would kill him, but that possibility hinges entirely on them finding out, and them finding out would require them to take a leap of faith and suspect him with no probable cause. Not only that, but it's entirely plausible that the Governor can be believed in that context and the group of people deceived. It's how his character works.
*Yeah Carol was trusted, until she went off and murdered the two sick people. But in that case it was extremely obvious they were murdered, so the obvious culprits were in the camp, the evidence conveniently written in to move the plot. To take a "normal" death via a very common hazard (dying to zombies) with no witnesses, and then go further and suspect someone within your own group takes a much larger leap.
*He probably is written poorly and doesn't come off as convincing when he tells lies, but it's entirely plausible his character can exist in a post-apocalyptic world, and he''s a depiction of that extreme case. People say the same shit about cults until you meet the people they drag in. It's probably why everyone hated Andrea so much. His character is written fine, you just take for granted the fact that you have more information than the characters do.
On November 28 2013 00:23 Nekovivie wrote: Doesn't Dale assume Shane did that because he also saw Shane pointing his rifle at Rick?
Or am I getting those two events back to front, I can't remember the chronology.
I think Dale suspecting Shane didn't really come out of thin air. He had never really liked Shane, and Shane had been acting increasingly violent and irrational. Add that to Shane's behaviour at the funeral and it doesn't seem like such a stretch. But it is 2 years ago since I saw season 2, so I am a bit hazy on the details too. I don't remember it being outlandish of Dale to accuse Shane.
Rick suspecting Carol did come out of the blue, though. He saw a handprint in blood. Presumably it was smallish (he measured it with his own hand). And from there he deduced it was Carol (unless he was just planning on asking all the women in the camp whether it was them).
It did come out of thin-air. Dale had no evidence to even SUSPECT that Shane did it. I'm hazy on the details as well, but what I remember very clearly was my total disbelief the very moment Dale brought it up on the show. The show has done it multiple times, where a character can take little information, or even no information, and somehow assume to know what the audience knows. It's just poorly written, and it's a grotesque irony when people suddenly turn around and expect characters to magically realize that a very common form of death was actually murder.
On November 28 2013 05:35 rd wrote: *You have perfect information of the murder but the characters don't. Unless something tips them off and cause them to suspect through evidence that a murder was at play. there is no reason for them to suspect the governor murdered anyone. Of course if they found out he did it they would kill him, but that possibility hinges entirely on them finding out, and them finding out would require them to take a leap of faith and suspect him with no probable cause. Not only that, but it's entirely plausible that the Governor can be believed in that context and the group of people deceived. It's how his character works.
I wouldn't expect the people to immediately suspect the gov. But I would them to question the death in general, and not just flat out accept that he kinda sorta fell in the hole drunk. And then the other guy just kinda vanished. And then the new guy is the new leader.
We're not talking about two random people from the camp, we're talking about two leaders of the camp in succession, after all. All that is not necessarily enough to immediately make people figure everything out, but it should be enough to make them ask questions. And to look closer at what the gov is doing.
And that's disregarding those annoying plot holes like the entire camp being supposedly abandoned entirely while the first guy was killed, etc.
On November 28 2013 05:35 rd wrote: *You have perfect information of the murder but the characters don't. Unless something tips them off and cause them to suspect through evidence that a murder was at play. there is no reason for them to suspect the governor murdered anyone. Of course if they found out he did it they would kill him, but that possibility hinges entirely on them finding out, and them finding out would require them to take a leap of faith and suspect him with no probable cause. Not only that, but it's entirely plausible that the Governor can be believed in that context and the group of people deceived. It's how his character works.
I wouldn't expect the people to immediately suspect the gov. But I would them to question the death in general, and not just flat out accept that he kinda sorta fell in the hole drunk. And then the other guy just kinda vanished. And then the new guy is the new leader.
We're not talking about two random people from the camp, we're talking about two leaders of the camp in succession, after all. All that is not necessarily enough to immediately make people figure everything out, but it should be enough to make them ask questions. And to look closer at what the gov is doing.
And that's disregarding those annoying plot holes like the entire camp being supposedly abandoned entirely while the first guy was killed, etc.
Groups (presumably) take in newcomers all the time, and chances are, they've lost many other leaders before these two. And the camp WAS in disbelief. The first response to Martinez's death from the crowd when they announced he stumbled into the zombie pit drunk was that "Martinez would never do that." Whether or not they'd be equally suspicious of Peter's death remains to be seen because we didn't get to see the camp's reaction yet. They packed too much plot movement into that episode, that is definitely what makes everything seem so despondent.
Also, we never got to see where they actually were before Martinez (the first guy) died. When they were golfing they were ontop of a single rv with no other rv's (that we could see) visible in the vicinity. When he murdered Peter though, he was surrounded by several rv's in what was the main camp. Presumably, him and Martinez drove off somewhere to golf.
On November 27 2013 04:38 EleanorRIgby wrote: a gazillion ways in a late zombie apocalypse.... get real
All these other people in that community seemed to have done well enough without any mass murder.
Until he showed up and started murdering them, of course.
If the writers would do that, just imagine how fucking boring it would be and how fucking retarded for a show like this to have no antagonist other than brainless zombies.
To the contrary, there's all kinds of really interesting stuff that could happen if they would introduce some intelligent characters that don't constantly get spontaneously assaulted by zombies and randomly murderous people. It would make for a truly post-apocalyptic show.
But it's much easier to let them walk into traps all the time to get another 5 minutes of action.
Most likely budget issues? Or could be because it is a zombie show and there should be people dying? Most people are watching this because they want to see zombies eating people and a bit of action more than "drama" and "characters". This is the sell point of this series, zombies, brains and gore. Drama and characters are just an ingredient to this mix. Like any other cake, this is made of flour,eggs etc. The thing is, this is say chocolate flavored and that other cake has fruits on it. Game of thrones had nudity for icing.
It is not like game of thrones where they would be jumping from one story to another and have 9999 names to know.
Imagine a zombie show with no one dying and too many people to account to. Well it is not like surviving is "easy" on a post apocalyptic world, it would be boring.
They wanted to show how people can be when they are in dire times. People are more dangerous, zombies are just another problem. Notice you can change zombies to say aliens then you have Falling Skies.
I didn't find a problem with how it was shown that the Governor took control. The passage of time can be understood if we look at both episodes from start to end. They didn't give us exact numbers but we can guess since it started right after the fall of Governor's town and ended up few months later at the prison (and in earlier episodes Rick and group did say at some point it has been a few months).
On November 28 2013 23:08 -Archangel- wrote: I didn't find a problem with how it was shown that the Governor took control. The passage of time can be understood if we look at both episodes from start to end. They didn't give us exact numbers but we can guess since it started right after the fall of Governor's town and ended up few months later at the prison (and in earlier episodes Rick and group did say at some point it has been a few months).
However, when he arrived at his new "family", he had long hair and a thick beard. So a few months must have passed before that, which doesn't leave much time for their stay in the new group.
On November 28 2013 23:08 -Archangel- wrote: I didn't find a problem with how it was shown that the Governor took control. The passage of time can be understood if we look at both episodes from start to end. They didn't give us exact numbers but we can guess since it started right after the fall of Governor's town and ended up few months later at the prison (and in earlier episodes Rick and group did say at some point it has been a few months).
However, when he arrived at his new "family", he had long hair and a thick beard. So a few months must have passed before that, which doesn't leave much time for their stay in the new group.
Not that thick. You should look at me after 1 week. I would say at most 1 to 2 months
Just come on here to say I don't understand all the hate of the last 2 episodes.
Having the governor as "Mr. Evil Does Only Evil Things For Evil Reasons" is extremely boring. What made Breaking Bad such a gripping show was the idea of a good man doing bad things for good reasons, who then became a bad man doing bad things. These episodes show that the governor can be a good man and can do things for other people without having any need or reason to do it other than to help a small girl who reminds him of his deceased daughter.
Good people doing good things for good reasons, versus bad people doing bad things for bad reasons is always going to be boring and predictable. Showing the governor as human just adds depth to his character, and there is nothing wrong with that. No they are not trying to redeem him and no he will never be a good character, but at least in future episodes I am going to be able to half relate with him on a basic human level, making me much more interested in how his side of the show plays out. Not tomention, if you cut those two episodes you just get him randomly turning up with a group of new people + a tank and everyone would come on here bitching about "Yo, where is the backstory? These writers suck!"
I very much enjoyed seeing the governor wander about by his own as a broken man with no where to go. It made me feel sad for him, and then feel bad for feeling sad for him. Good writing in my opinion.
On December 01 2013 03:49 Westy wrote: Just come on here to say I don't understand all the hate of the last 2 episodes.
Having the governor as "Mr. Evil Does Only Evil Things For Evil Reasons" is extremely boring. What made Breaking Bad such a gripping show was the idea of a good man doing bad things for good reasons, who then became a bad man doing bad things. These episodes show that the governor can be a good man and can do things for other people without having any need or reason to do it other than to help a small girl who reminds him of his deceased daughter.
Good people doing good things for good reasons, versus bad people doing bad things for bad reasons is always going to be boring and predictable. Showing the governor as human just adds depth to his character, and there is nothing wrong with that. No they are not trying to redeem him and no he will never be a good character, but at least in future episodes I am going to be able to half relate with him on a basic human level, making me much more interested in how his side of the show plays out. Not tomention, if you cut those two episodes you just get him randomly turning up with a group of new people + a tank and everyone would come on here bitching about "Yo, where is the backstory? These writers suck!"
I very much enjoyed seeing the governor wander about by his own as a broken man with no where to go. It made me feel sad for him, and then feel bad for feeling sad for him. Good writing in my opinion.
The governor wandering around finding himself as a broken man was good. the governor regrouping a shitty band of survivors to wage war against the prison again is BAD AS FUCK. Everything good they did to build up the governor was thrown in the toilet when he goes after the prison again. BORING, terrible writing.
EPT
