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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ???
Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough.
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On October 24 2013 08:13 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ??? Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough.
Damn. It'd only take ~3 seconds to read the bolded part where the explanation doesn't have to be realistic, there just has to be an explanation. Infact, it'd take a few minutes to just read the conversation if you were at all interested (but you aren't so why you even replied I have NFC). It doesn't have to be realistic, just exist. You know, immersion, the thing that people like when they watch TV shows because they try to get absorbed into it, etc.
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On October 24 2013 08:17 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:13 jcroisdale wrote:On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ??? Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough. Damn. It'd only take ~3 seconds to read the bolded part where the explanation doesn't have to be realistic, there just has to be an explanation. Infact, it'd take a few minutes to just read the conversation if you were at all interested (but you aren't so why you even replied I have NFC). It doesn't have to be realistic, just exist. You know, immersion, the thing that people like when they watch TV shows because they try to get absorbed into it, etc.
It's completely unnecessary. I don't know why you think this is so important.
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On October 24 2013 08:13 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ??? Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough.
This is such a shitty way to dismiss someone's argument. What's the point of even replying? You know what they should have next episode? Unicorns and chimeras. Why? Because it's a show about zombies and doesn't have to be realistic at all! People should even be capable of flying by flapping their arms really fast.
Anyway it's a flaw in the shows logic with people dying from non-fatal bites from "fresh" zombies. They don't actually die from a virus being passed on, they die from the bacteria build up on the zombies. It's the same idea behind traps (Punji sticks )used in the Vietnam war by the Vietcong. The wound itself wouldn't be fatal but the stick would be covered in feces or other putrid matter so you would die from an infection eventually. So in all "reality" the father shouldn't have died to his bite wounds since they appeared to be non-fatal.
I'd like to touch on something I've seen a few people say about the fence too. Mainly with the rotting bodies laying around the fence and how they wouldn't want that. PROTIP: Zombies are already rotting at a regular rate of decay. "Alive" or dead it makes no difference.
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shit guys u think too complex.
humans are already infected, that we know
when zombie bites -> zombie logic implies u turn zombie in a matter of seconds
you can see here 2 mechanics working independantly, now please stop disccusssing zombie logic cause it can't be logical anyways
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On October 22 2013 21:44 Scorch wrote:I'm not sure about what happened in the last scene. As I see it, these are the possibilities: - The two quarantined people were indeed sick and dying. One wanted to burn themselves in order to keep the disease from spreading and not turn into a zombie. The other one didn't want that, there was an argument, one killed the other, dragged the body outside and burned them both.
- Same as before, except this time one of the two had already died and turned. So the other one killed the zombie, dragged the body out and burned both.
- A third person killed the quarantined people and burned them, because...
- They were already zombies
- They were alive, but the killer wanted to make absolutely sure there wouldn't be an epidemic
- It's just some psycho murderer or Governor loyalist.
I'm thinking 3.2 or 3.3 because that would nicely drive the plot forward.
Rick did it. A switch flipped inside him and he shot and burned them. He is again in his psychotic survival mode and will do anything.
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Italy125 Posts
On October 24 2013 08:13 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ??? Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough.
The only explanation that i gave myself in all the films/series is that the virus is in everyone. When a zombie bites someone, more virus goes into the body, a more powerful virus, way more than the one that is the human body. Human immune system can't help without such a powerful virus, that it's different from the one in the body (same family, different power). That's why humans collapse after a bite, all immune system is gone, all the virus/bacteria/everything else kills the bitten and that's, we have a brand new walker.
On October 24 2013 10:18 Arbiter667 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 21:44 Scorch wrote:I'm not sure about what happened in the last scene. As I see it, these are the possibilities: - The two quarantined people were indeed sick and dying. One wanted to burn themselves in order to keep the disease from spreading and not turn into a zombie. The other one didn't want that, there was an argument, one killed the other, dragged the body outside and burned them both.
- Same as before, except this time one of the two had already died and turned. So the other one killed the zombie, dragged the body out and burned both.
- A third person killed the quarantined people and burned them, because...
- They were already zombies
- They were alive, but the killer wanted to make absolutely sure there wouldn't be an epidemic
- It's just some psycho murderer or Governor loyalist.
I'm thinking 3.2 or 3.3 because that would nicely drive the plot forward. Rick did it. A switch flipped inside him and he shot and burned them. He is again in his psychotic survival mode and will do anything.
I don't know, imho the two infected died by themselves, then Daryl or Rick did the dirty job. Maybe they were alive, but i don't think so, even if Rick is a killing frenzy driven by survival instinct, his mind cannot accept murder without a reason. The "Normal Survival Rick" is a person that wait that the infected turn and then kill them.
And I think the same for Daryl.
BTW Big hype for the new episode, the series started very well
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On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this.  well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained...
There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus.
Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting  )
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This is being thought into way too much, but all the same I'd like to point out that turning from a zombie bite and everyone being infected isn't mutually exclusive or totally implausible. I have a pretty solid biomedical background and can think of a couple explanations.
For one, I'm pretty sure the nature of the infection is never explicitly stated to be a virus. Let's say it's some sort of parasite or non-viral element: it can't reproduce inside living people; the host needs to die before it can complete its life cycle and transform into a much more infectious, virulent form. There are parasites that require specific conditions provided by specific hosts in order to complete their life cycle and replicate.
Or let's say it is, in fact, a virus. You can harbor a virus in your virus for your entire life without exhibiting symptoms. If you've ever gotten the chickenpox, you are harboring a dormant virus. This is the same virus that causes shingles much later in life (also, once reactivated it is again contagious). Reactivation commonly occurs in people with weakened immune systems - caused by stress, injury, age, malnourishment - i.e. many of the things the survivors experience. Now add on that a zombie bite is introducing significant injury, blood loss, and additional infections - and you have a perfect recipe for the activation of a dormant virus, overwhelming the immune system and causing death/turning.
Just sayin' ;p
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On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this. well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting )
That's not an explanation, that's speculation. Theres no evidence in the show that suggests that zombie bites carry the disease this way. It's not something that can really be proven on the show anyways unless a scientist figure simply declares it the case, or someone does tests on walker saliva or something.
The difference in plausibility between transmitting a virus and transmitting bacteria is that everyone can visibly see the environment of a walker's mouth and know it would harbor vicious bacteria .If bites weren't arbitrarily fatal as they generally are in zombie lore, the untreated bacteria would likely kill most people in a few days. Whereas the virus is fictional and we don't understand how it works because it's just not explained (and we don't even know if it's the same infection). The bacteria doesn't work so we're left waiting for the fictional virus explanation. It's just as likely that the bites are just arbitrarily fatal, borrowing from traditional zombie lore, and then left in the story as an oversight.
edit: I wonder if at any point in the first season someone died and returned as a walker without being bitten, and also at the equivalent points in the comic. Cause from my memory it wasn't an existing factor until it was subtly introduced in season 2 and eventually revealed at the end. It can't prove it was a mechanic crowbarred into the lore, but it would make for a much better case to argue so.
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Holy shit can you stfu? Why does it have to be explained to the nth degree? Did you get angry when they didn't show the math behind how Iron Mans suit was able to fly?
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So that was 2 decent episodes. Lot better than the second half of S3 that's for sure.
Hope it keeps on delivering.
On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this.
You're thinking a bit too much into it. The series is filled with illogical things anyway so after 4 season it isn't really a good time to start looking for details to be honest.
But if you want you could argue something along the line that when you turn there is a switch in your body cells and it become instantly contagious. For example, you could say that when turned, your cells/saliva change and a little bit of these mixed in the blood make someone sick, that dies quickly and turn himself.
Of course, you're right that the show doesn't give a very precise explanation, and if you're looking for one you have a point since there is none. But it's not really needed. All we can do is come up with one in the limit of what the show revealed (that is bites kill people, dead people turn), trying to find proof of it in the show is ppointless since there isn't.
On October 24 2013 13:54 miicah wrote:
Holy shit can you stfu? Why does it have to be explained to the nth degree? Did you get angry when they didn't show the math behind how Iron Mans suit was able to fly?
Maybe you should take some pills. If the conversation isn't interesting to you no need to get all angry, ignore it and move on or go rage on youtube comments that's the perfect place for it.
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It's not a conversation it's rd being stubborn as fuck. Also there is no ignore function on TL so I can't ignore it.
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On October 24 2013 13:34 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this. well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting ) That's not an explanation, that's speculation. Theres no evidence in the show that suggests that zombie bites carry the disease this way. It's not something that can really be proven on the show anyways unless a scientist figure simply declares it the case, or someone does tests on walker saliva or something.
The Walking Dead has explicitly shown us that if you get bit by a walker, you will die even if the injury sustained is not lethal (unless you can cut the injured limb before the infection spreads). This is a fact of the show.
Now, like two posters have explained to you on this page, and contrary to your earlier statement that "there really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility", there very much are possible explanations available for walker bites leading to death. The show has not provided us with the exact explanation, but that certainly doesn't mean that the "logic" of the show is being broken in any way, or that it's inconsistent. There isn't an ounce of inconsistency here - it's simply a fact of the show for which we do not have a definitive scientific explanation yet, but for which plenty of possible explanations that do not contradict the rest of the show can be suggested.
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On October 24 2013 13:34 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this. well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting ) That's not an explanation, that's speculation.
Stopped reading your posts there lol Clearly you're the type that must be shown and/or told literally EVERYTHING that happens and does no happen explicitly.
The hilarious part is that you don't even realize that we only know as much as the characters know. For god sakes nobody even know how it all started, speculation is all ANYONE in TWD universe has. Blackjack just gave a real world example that works perfectly, and you still bitch and moan hahaha
You seem like you hate anything that requires you to think for yourself and use your imagination. Please don't read books lol
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On October 24 2013 13:54 miicah wrote:
Holy shit can you stfu? Why does it have to be explained to the nth degree? Did you get angry when they didn't show the math behind how Iron Mans suit was able to fly?
I'll just entertain this comparison:
No, I don't get mad when iron man flies. I've only restated it like three times (and you don't care to read so) that the function of iron man's suit requires you to suspend your disbelief for the show to work. And it's fine, I liked it.
A more relevant comparison to the TWD contradiction I'm trying to argue would be to imagine the hypothetical if the show initially said iron man used his suit to fly and use his powers, but at some random point in the middle of the story it's revealed he can use all his powers of flight and strength etc without the suit all along. At that point you'd ask what the fuck the suit is for. You could speculate it's for protection, or that it enhanced his powers, but without clarification it'd carry the initial assumption that he uses it to fly, thus contradicts the story...
On October 24 2013 21:45 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 13:34 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this. well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting ) That's not an explanation, that's speculation. Theres no evidence in the show that suggests that zombie bites carry the disease this way. It's not something that can really be proven on the show anyways unless a scientist figure simply declares it the case, or someone does tests on walker saliva or something. The Walking Dead has explicitly shown us that if you get bit by a walker, you will die even if the injury sustained is not lethal (unless you can cut the injured limb before the infection spreads). This is a fact of the show. Now, like two posters have explained to you on this page, and contrary to your earlier statement that "there really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility", there very much are possible explanations available for walker bites leading to death. The show has not provided us with the exact explanation, but that certainly doesn't mean that the "logic" of the show is being broken in any way, or that it's inconsistent. There isn't an ounce of inconsistency here - it's simply a fact of the show for which we do not have a definitive scientific explanation yet, but for which plenty of possible explanations that do not contradict the rest of the show can be suggested.
There IS inconsistency though. The beginning of the show set up the framework that to be bitten was to kill you and turn you into a walker, presumably because it transferred the infection (like all traditional zombie movies). Then season 2 threw that out the window and clarified people were already infected. But bites still carry the initial, now unclarified assumption from the start that they transfer the infection. You can obviously assume and speculate why it happens and fill in the gap for yourself, but the story has yet to do it. Like you said in your last sentence, you have to come up with possible explanations that do not contradict the rest (season 1) of the show, because as it stands unexplained it creates a contradiction.
On October 24 2013 22:15 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 13:34 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:On October 22 2013 20:57 Thezzy wrote:One thing I wondered about with new walkers in this episode is if their bite is lethal or not. (infection wise) From what I've gathered, a walker bite is mostly deadly due to the necrotic flesh and bacteria that are present in most walkers. When they bite someone, the infection that follows is so heavy that said person will very likely die to it, especially without medicine. There is nothing special in a walker bite, it's just so ridden with bacteria and dead material that it becomes lethal. However, Patrick was only dead for several minutes to an hour when he started killing people. Similarly, those dead would rise as new fresh walkers with very little to no bacteria or necrotic material. Being bitten by them would be similar to being bitten by a live human. All that makes me wonder if they killed that father when he may have survived being bitten. Then again, I might be thinking too much about this. well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff) But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting ) That's not an explanation, that's speculation. Stopped reading your posts there lol Clearly you're the type that must be shown and/or told literally EVERYTHING that happens and does no happen explicitly. The hilarious part is that you don't even realize that we only know as much as the characters know. For god sakes nobody even know how it all started, speculation is all ANYONE in TWD universe has. Blackjack just gave a real world example that works perfectly, and you still bitch and moan hahaha You seem like you hate anything that requires you to think for yourself and use your imagination. Please don't read books lol
Lol? It's not an issue of thinking for yourself. Its an issue with one element of the show directly conflicting with another. The entire premise of the show relies upon the mechanics of the walkers, and it works up until season 3. At first the story said it was transmitted by bite but then clarified that it already existed in the first place. It's ironic because to simply accept that and move on is the literal opposite of thinking for yourself.
What's really ironic though is that you assume "I don't realize that we only know as much as the characters know," yet one fucking sentence after the line you quoted from me I literally just said that statement. You stopped reading though, so I'll do you a favor and quote it:
"It's not something that can really be proven on the show anyways unless a scientist figure simply declares it the case, or someone does tests on walker saliva or something. "
You probably shouldn't get so bent out of shape when someone tries to think, and you should probably stop quoting out of context.
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On October 25 2013 01:42 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 21:45 kwizach wrote:On October 24 2013 13:34 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 12:24 BlackJack wrote:On October 24 2013 07:23 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 16:06 NarutO wrote:On October 23 2013 09:46 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 09:22 Smokincoyote wrote:On October 23 2013 08:48 rd wrote:On October 23 2013 06:26 oGoZenob wrote:
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well, the first guy patrick attacked was most likely killed on the spot (like, beeing eaten and stuff)
But even in non-zombie world, a human bite can cause some pretty nasty infections, and probably death when there is no antibiotics available I don't think a human bite kills someone in a matter of hours. Not even a Komodo Dragon bite kills remotely that fast. I'm pretty sure at this point in TWD mechanics a walker bite is arbitrarily fatal with no appropriate explanation why. It's the same for almost all zombie movies. It's not the infection from the bite that kills the people - its the 'magic' disease that kills the people. Like a toxin in a zombie saliva or a poison. So while everyone is a carrier and if they die of natural reason (like Patrick) they'll still come back as a zombie, but also if your bitten the process is rapidly sped up. Think of getting bitten as getting a double dose of the disease, which is why it turns people so quickly - they're not simply dying of a bacterial infection within a few hours. Well firstly, it's really important to read my post in context to what I was quoting. Secondly, TWD isn't like all zombie movies. In most zombie movies, the zombies carry the disease and transfer it upon biting/scratching etc. TWD decided to use that idea, but also throw in the additional mechanic that everyone is infected to begin with, which directly conflicts with the first idea. So now zombie bites in TWD have no purpose other than to fulfill that cliche, but with no explanation as to why. It's not a magic disease that speeds up the infection, because the infection only takes hold after the person is dead. There is no process to begin with -- they aren't dying from the infection. At least, absolutely nothing in the show has revealed any evidence that the infection has any effect upon the health of a living person. They're just dying from the bite for a reason that has not been revealed to us. Bacteria from rotted flesh was the best, realistic explanation one could come up with, but that explanation has been thrown out the window for like the third time now. It's either a gaping oversight in the lore, or an unexplained phenomenon that will be crow-barred into the story at some later point. There really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility. Before bashing, you should probably watch the series again. In the (I believe) second episode where Rick encounters the black guy and his son, it was explained that his wife got bit and the infection caused high fever resulting in death. I would even argue that they don't really die and turn fast. Have we had evidence of a bite killing and turning a person quickly? From what I can tell, the person that gets bitten usually dies, because the zombie is still there and kills him/her. As we could see in the previous episode and the bite to the throat. The only person that got bit and survived was the dad of those 2 girls. He died, but we didn't see him turn, because Carol killed him before. As a matter of fact, it has been explained that people turn differently fast and from what I can tell, no bitten person died 5 minutes after the bite or anything like that. They simply got very sick from the infection. While you say its about rotten flesh, it could also be that the virus mutates after 'activation' upon death. There is no medical logic you could apply here, those are dead walking bodies. I don't understand why anyone would try to argue with logic in a post apocalyptic zombie world. TWD actually sticks very well to its own logic and rules and I don't see people turning randomly into zombies after being bitten, but always being sick first / withering away due to high fever etc or severe bleeding. Anyways, I enjoy it~ Damn, twice in a row I'm quoted out of context. It's not bashing. Did I say I didn't enjoy it? The concepts of an infection spreading through a bite and an infection existing regardless of the bite are mutually exclusive ideas. Why else would anyone have to speculate how people are dying from the bite? It's speculation over an unexplained inconsistency. Just because it's a post apocalyptic zombie world, it doesn't mean it can't be logical. To say it can't is just a cop out. If it couldn't, then they'd have license to break every real world mechanic as we logically understand them in our own world. They could just remove gravity and make everyone jump and float off into space because "it's a zombie movie it doesn't have to be logical." If you really believe it can't be logical then you're missing the entire point of TWD which is trying to portray a realistic world with the fictional twist of a zombie outbreak. And yes, the first season explained the fever and eventual death. But that doesn't explain why the bite causes the fever, it just gave the observation that the consequence of a bite was a fever and eventual death. Except the dad of the two girls and several others have died within (what appeared to be) less than an hour. He didn't have to turn, he just died. I never said it was the bacteria of the walkers' rotted flesh either (infact I didnt even try to explain it), I simply referenced the popular opinion (which you are quoting me out of context on) where it was generally believed that the bites were so dangerous because of bacteria, but that bacteria can't exist in someone who just died <1 hour ago. The problem isn't that bite killing people isn't realistic, it's that theres no "fictional" explanation in the TWD world, and the last "rational" explanation based on our real world doesn't work anymore (and it was sketchy to begin with). So now theres no explanation. It's just magic, thus the inconsistency. It doesn't even have to be logical, just explained... There is a very easy and logical explanation and it's this: There are 2 stages of the virus - a latent stage and an active stage. Everyone has the virus in its latent stage and there are no symptoms with the latent virus. When you die you have no immune system so the virus takes over and becomes activated. When you are a walker and you have the activated version of the virus you can spread the activated version of the virus with your bite. This causes the infection and "fever" that will kill you and turn you into another walker with the activated virus. Btw, just to enforce how plausible this explanation is, you should know that there are already diseases that work this way. For example, Tuberculosis. People with latent TB have no symptoms and are not contagious. When they get activated TB they become contagious and spread the disease through coughing and sneezing (or biting ) That's not an explanation, that's speculation. Theres no evidence in the show that suggests that zombie bites carry the disease this way. It's not something that can really be proven on the show anyways unless a scientist figure simply declares it the case, or someone does tests on walker saliva or something. The Walking Dead has explicitly shown us that if you get bit by a walker, you will die even if the injury sustained is not lethal (unless you can cut the injured limb before the infection spreads). This is a fact of the show. Now, like two posters have explained to you on this page, and contrary to your earlier statement that "there really isn't a feasible way to explain it at this point that falls within the realm plausibility", there very much are possible explanations available for walker bites leading to death. The show has not provided us with the exact explanation, but that certainly doesn't mean that the "logic" of the show is being broken in any way, or that it's inconsistent. There isn't an ounce of inconsistency here - it's simply a fact of the show for which we do not have a definitive scientific explanation yet, but for which plenty of possible explanations that do not contradict the rest of the show can be suggested. There IS inconsistency though. The beginning of the show set up the framework that to be bitten was to kill you and turn you into a walker, presumably because it transferred the infection (like all traditional zombie movies). Then season 2 threw that out the window and clarified people were already infected. But bites still carry the initial, now unclarified assumption from the start that they transfer the infection. You can obviously assume and speculate why it happens and fill in the gap for yourself, but the story has yet to do it. Like you said in your last sentence, you have to come up with possible explanations that do not contradict the rest (season 1) of the show, because as it stands unexplained it creates a contradiction.
No, you are again confusing something being unexplained with there being a contradiction. There is absolutely no contradiction or inconsistency here. Your assertion that "bites still carry the initial, now unclarified assumption from the start that they transfer the infection" is groundless. The show has established that, until shown otherwise, everyone is infected by something which leads one to turn into a walker after dieing. The show has established that, until shown otherwise, getting bit by a zombie will result in one's death (unless you cut the limb fast enough). Period. There is no contradiction between the two, and there are plenty of possible explanations for walker bites leading to one's death.
Also, you seem to be confusing the characters' perception of their environment with how the producers are setting up the walking dead world. We, as viewers, are learning about the infection through the characters' eyes and experience. They initially thought that the reason people turned was entirely that they had gotten bit, because of the empirical evidence available to them (people getting bit and, as a result, dieing then turning). They later uncovered that this wasn't the case - everyone is already infected and people simply turn after dieing. Again, no inconsistency: the characters simply uncovered new evidence (people turning without getting bitten) that led them to replace their previous assessment of how people turning into walkers worked.
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The virus is exactly as it is in the comics, so clearly they knew it was going to be like this from episode 1. I really don't understand RD's gripe. The virus makes sense as it is.
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On October 25 2013 02:35 Uncultured wrote:
The virus is exactly as it is in the comics, so clearly they knew it was going to be like this from episode 1. I really don't understand RD's gripe. The virus makes sense as it is.
This is also hinted at during the end of the first season. The scientist guy at the CDC whispers something to Rick right before they escape, and at the end of season 2 Rick revealed that he was told that everyone is already infected. It seems pretty clear, especially since this is the way the virus works in the comics, that this mechanic was planned from the beginning of the tv series, not just added later to create extra drama.
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On October 24 2013 08:17 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:13 jcroisdale wrote:On October 24 2013 08:12 rd wrote:On October 24 2013 08:00 miicah wrote:
I think it's pretty damn logical
Get bitten/scratched -> You die (or turn very quickly into a walker)
Like the woman from Tyrese's group, she was alive for a while before she died/turned, although I can't remember exactly how long that was. Also we were never really given a solid timeline for how long it took the father to die, all we knew is that he got bitten around 6am and then died before night time. It's cause/effect without logic. You're missing the more important question of why the cause/effect exists. The explanation doesn't have to be logical, it just has to exist. Try looking at it this way: Even unbitten or unscratched, if you die --> you turn into a walker explanation: Everyone is already infected and it only takes hold after you die. Not logical to real world mechanics, but we suspend that disbelief to make the show work and it's fine. Get bitten/scratched --> ??? --> you die explanation: ??? Ya the TV show about zombies isn't real enough. Damn. It'd only take ~3 seconds to read the bolded part where the explanation doesn't have to be realistic, there just has to be an explanation. Infact, it'd take a few minutes to just read the conversation if you were at all interested (but you aren't so why you even replied I have NFC). It doesn't have to be realistic, just exist. You know, immersion, the thing that people like when they watch TV shows because they try to get absorbed into it, etc.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but the explanation is that you get infected as you are bit. But not by the virus itself, which is already in you. Think infection from a rat bite for example, but worse considering the zombie's hygiene;). That infection that is rampant in dead flesh zombies kills you. Pretty sure it was explained, or at least guessed by Rick. He is speculating, but it's not like he has a med lab and education to figure that shit out. Now that would have been unrealistic, if he could give you the exact mechanics..
I don't see any contradictions here. At the start you see people get bit by zombies, die and turn into zombies. You assume the bite introduces the virus into the body, which kills ppl and turns them into zombies. Then your assumption is proven wrong as you see people that were never bit turn into zombies upon death. You can then guess, and characters speculate, that virus is already in everyone and upon death it turns you into zombies. You don't have to get bitten to contract the virus. A zombie bite simply either a - speeds up the process of dying, or b - introduces other bacteria/infection to your body that kills you.
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EPT
