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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On February 20 2013 17:03 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 12:12 TheExile19 wrote:On February 20 2013 11:40 killa_robot wrote:
Because at first he didn't want it to be true (who wants to admit they're crazy), but later he realized it was a nice break from the normal world he lives in. can you point to a place within the past two episodes where it's obvious or even arguable that rick's view on his breakdown progresses in this manner? he's a sweating, delirious mess chasing after his dead wife all day long and leaving carl to fend for himself, I'm not sure where "nice break" comes into it. especially when the guys with carbines show up. it's also not about categorical logic, it's about the show relating that confusion and illogic in a way that doesn't put people off (g-g-g-ghost lori!!), or at least having some sort of consistency. rick drops his sweaty, crazy act the second armed men arrive and starts being competent again, and it doesn't seem like we're done with rick's character digression yet because he still hasn't come back to the prison, so if it's the same deal next episode where he's mourning and lost it's going to go from being tonally inconsistent to just laughable. it would be a shame, since andrew lincoln is trying his hardest to sell this silliness and I was nearly on board by the end of last episode. Now you also have a masters degree in psychology? Crazy people are crazy and not sane by any means which doesn't mean that they cannot have clear moments at all. You can google and do research on it, but there are quiet a lot of cases documented where insane/crazy people do have clear minds in certain circumstances and situations. Take Rick for that matter, his situation of being calm and not insane is fighting / shooting. I don't see how this is laughable or completely unrealistic to anyone. Not trying to make you look stupid as we have had our discussions and I can agree to lots of points you make, but that is as unreasonable as it gets.
this is the same issue as the "to err is human! this show is about humanity!" excuse for me in that it's a catch-all rebuttal to poor writing. just as lame character subplots and tedious, pedestrian conversations can be written off in that way, saying "he's crazy, man, he doesn't have to be logical or consistent right now!" lets you declare that the idea of actually making his insanity matter, or really resonate with an audience by making his madness stretch to absolute inability to contribute to the group (you know...tension), is outside the realm of necessity because, well, he's crazy, he do wuteva. coincidentally, this "wuteva" and your "certain circumstances" always end up intersecting when it's time for the requisite shootout or zombie stabbing. boy, that's convenient, huh? it's almost like nobody wants to sacrifice the base components that make up the mind-numbing action of the show in the slightest to imbue this subplot with any sense of importance. again, it's a shame because there are some honestly cool aspects to what we're being shown with rick and herschel from scene to scene.
this is one of those things where people think I'm questioning the logic of the script and not the logic of the overall package. rick can be as crazy as he likes for a few more episodes and I can't just say it flat-out doesn't make internal sense; mental illness generally supercedes other factors and allows for all sorts of storytelling. it'd just be nice if this all wasn't cynically devoted to giving other characters more to do while we pass episodes until the final showdown.
edit: also, I only have a few undergrad psych classes under my belt but I feel quite safe in saying that the type of psychoses where you're seeing hallucinations defy the word "consistency" in the way that rick is crazy during action downtime and appropriately action-hero when he needs to be, like it's just that binary. schizophrenia comes immediately to mind, but haha at the idea of a schizophrenic protagonist, so no, it's just pseudoscience and a convenient plot device.
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Fantastic episode! I like what they're doing with Rick's mental collapse due to trying to keep the group together/alive, coping with the death of his wife and facing severe physical and mental exhaustion. It's completely understandable he would breakdown with the amount of stress placed on him.
Even though I knew what was going to happen to + Show Spoiler +Axel, due to having read the comics
I also like the approach the Governor took to terrorize Rick and the group. He could have continued picking them off with his sniper rifle after killing Axel but instead chose to showcase just how much power he has, trying to invoke deep fear in them for a period of time before he, presumably, comes back. Initially, I thought he was randomly firing his AUG in order to attract walkers, but, according to Kirkman on The Talking Dead, it was just to terrorize the group. The Governor wants revenge for what happened and considering how sick of a person he is, his approach isn't surprising and make sense.
Lastly, that scene with Merle and Daryl when Daryl decides to go back to the group was incredibly strong, especially the acting by Merle. I wonder how Merle's character will develop and whether he'll help defend the prison.
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When a truck full of zombies charges into the prison, I think I saw a blonde person with a gas mask come out with a pistol. Who could it be?
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On February 20 2013 17:28 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 17:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On February 20 2013 12:12 TheExile19 wrote:On February 20 2013 11:40 killa_robot wrote:
Because at first he didn't want it to be true (who wants to admit they're crazy), but later he realized it was a nice break from the normal world he lives in. can you point to a place within the past two episodes where it's obvious or even arguable that rick's view on his breakdown progresses in this manner? he's a sweating, delirious mess chasing after his dead wife all day long and leaving carl to fend for himself, I'm not sure where "nice break" comes into it. especially when the guys with carbines show up. it's also not about categorical logic, it's about the show relating that confusion and illogic in a way that doesn't put people off (g-g-g-ghost lori!!), or at least having some sort of consistency. rick drops his sweaty, crazy act the second armed men arrive and starts being competent again, and it doesn't seem like we're done with rick's character digression yet because he still hasn't come back to the prison, so if it's the same deal next episode where he's mourning and lost it's going to go from being tonally inconsistent to just laughable. it would be a shame, since andrew lincoln is trying his hardest to sell this silliness and I was nearly on board by the end of last episode. Now you also have a masters degree in psychology? Crazy people are crazy and not sane by any means which doesn't mean that they cannot have clear moments at all. You can google and do research on it, but there are quiet a lot of cases documented where insane/crazy people do have clear minds in certain circumstances and situations. Take Rick for that matter, his situation of being calm and not insane is fighting / shooting. I don't see how this is laughable or completely unrealistic to anyone. Not trying to make you look stupid as we have had our discussions and I can agree to lots of points you make, but that is as unreasonable as it gets. this is the same issue as the "to err is human! this show is about humanity!" excuse for me in that it's a catch-all rebuttal to poor writing. just as lame character subplots and tedious, pedestrian conversations can be written off in that way, saying "he's crazy, man, he doesn't have to be logical or consistent right now!" lets you declare that the idea of actually making his insanity matter, or really resonate with an audience by making his madness stretch to absolute inability to contribute to the group (you know...tension), is outside the realm of necessity because, well, he's crazy, he do wuteva. coincidentally, this "wuteva" and your "certain circumstances" always end up intersecting when it's time for the requisite shootout or zombie stabbing. boy, that's convenient, huh? it's almost like nobody wants to sacrifice the base components that make up the mind-numbing action of the show in the slightest to imbue this subplot with any sense of importance. again, it's a shame because there are some honestly cool aspects to what we're being shown with rick and herschel from scene to scene. this is one of those things where people think I'm questioning the logic of the script and not the logic of the overall package. rick can be as crazy as he likes for a few more episodes and I can't just say it flat-out doesn't make internal sense; mental illness generally supercedes other factors and allows for all sorts of storytelling. it'd just be nice if this all wasn't cynically devoted to giving other characters more to do while we pass episodes until the final showdown. edit: also, I only have a few undergrad psych classes under my belt but I feel quite safe in saying that the type of psychoses where you're seeing hallucinations defy the word "consistency" in the way that rick is crazy during action downtime and appropriately action-hero when he needs to be, like it's just that binary. schizophrenia comes immediately to mind, but haha at the idea of a schizophrenic protagonist, so no, it's just pseudoscience and a convenient plot device.
As I write his state of mind off as psychological sickness (will explain more detailled later) you write it off as poor writing, because you dislike it. A matter of fact is, that psychosis can work the way we are seeing it with Rick. If its poor writing to begin with, you cannot judge, because you would first need to know the reasoning and aims of the writers to begin with.
Is it bad writing if they exactly want to do, what they currently do? While I can understand, that you feel its bad writing when Rick is insane when it doesn't matter, but completely clear when the group actually needs him or he matters, I can relate to, but in that case I'd say Rick does matter most of the time, yet he is missing because he's going ape shit in the forrest, searching and interacting with Lauri. Rick would never have Glenn go in the first place to look for whatever he did , because he was too busy interacting with a "ghost".
Perfectly fine and acceptable if you dislike the writing, perfectly fine to write down criticism but bluntly calling the show and the writing bad, because you disagree with it is wrong.
On the mental disorder "I" would rate Rick:
Brief reactive psychosis, referred to in the DSM IV-TR as "brief psychotic disorder with marked stressor(s)", is the psychiatric term for psychosis which can be triggered by an extremely stressful event in the life of an individual.
'BRP is characterized by delusions, hallucinations, catatonic symptoms, and strange speech, but the symptoms last for a very short period (one day to one month) after which the individual returns to full normal functioning'
BRP generally occurs 'following a stressful life event (i.e. house move, divorce, becoming homeless, etc.)'[5] - but the trigger 'may be any experience deemed catastrophic by the affected individual'.[6]
Such 'stressful life event' can thus take many forms, including (but not limited to) the death of a loved one, professional loss such as unexpectedly losing one's job or otherwise becoming unemployed, or serious adverse changes in the patient's personal life, such as the breakdown of their family through divorce, etc.
It must be emphasised that this is by no means an exhaustive list of stressful life events, because the events which trigger brief reactive psychosis tend, due to the individualistic nature of human psychology, to be extremely personalized. BRP may be the first breakdown for someone with a chronic psychiatric disorder but only time will tell whether the disorder will be brief or lifelong, whether BRP or a chronic condition that is controlled well enough by medication that symptoms do not return.
---- According to wikipedia for that matter. All relations between BRP and other mental issues would lead to a completely new discussion which is not just irrelevant, but also beyond most peoples knowledge, so I'll leave it at that explaination above.
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On February 20 2013 18:19 Type|NarutO wrote:
As I write his state of mind off as psychological sickness (will explain more detailled later) you write it off as poor writing, because you dislike it. A matter of fact is, that psychosis can work the way we are seeing it with Rick. If its poor writing to begin with, you cannot judge, because you would first need to know the reasoning and aims of the writers to begin with.
Is it bad writing if they exactly want to do, what they currently do? While I can understand, that you feel its bad writing when Rick is insane when it doesn't matter, but completely clear when the group actually needs him or he matters, I can relate to, but in that case I'd say Rick does matter most of the time, yet he is missing because he's going ape shit in the forrest, searching and interacting with Lauri. Rick would never have Glenn go in the first place to look for whatever he did , because he was too busy interacting with a "ghost".
Perfectly fine and acceptable if you dislike the writing, perfectly fine to write down criticism but bluntly calling the show and the writing bad, because you disagree with it is wrong.
no, I "write it off" (if I'd written it off, I wouldn't be here repeating myself for the tenth time) as poor writing because I believe I can make a legitimate case for why it's poor writing, not because I dislike the show. if it sounds like I'm up my own ass right now, it's because you're basically saying that all of my criticism is rooted in hatred, which is ad hominem bullshit. for that matter, what credentials do I need to talk about this show and draw conclusions based on the premises I've repeated over and over, exactly? I'm a junior undergrad in english lit, criticism in this vein is the endpoint of my silly degree.
the bolded...come on, man. intent doesn't excuse flaws or preclude criticism whatsoever. as for rick, it's very clear that he matters and that the writers agree with us because even when realistically he should be exploring his insanity arc, he's still being shoehorned into the all-important action scenes whenever they arise. also, are you not acknowledging the toothlessness of glenn's little fit by saying "whatever he did"? good point, what did he do all last episode besides bitch? he went out, probably had a tantrum in his product placement automobile and then came back just in time to do jack shit. if this is what we're siphoning power from rick for, to undermine it anyway and put non-drama on display, maybe they shouldn't have wasted their time because the show honestly is not better for this. I would question anyone who doesn't think these past two episodes have been the nadir of season 3 thus far.
finally, it's wrong to call the writing bad? in what moral sense? is this some sort of job creator/importance of gratifying the content creator spiel? this show's crew gave me 2 and a half seasons of good-verging-on-great content, if I was more of an optimist and believed that my voice mattered I'd be writing letters and posting on their forums instead of rattling cages here, because when you enjoy/care for something you shouldn't fear the negative reaction of the authors when you tell them you think they're fucking up royally. a corollary here, naturally, is that no one should feel the need to take up for them solely on behalf of their feelings, because then you're being a reactionary fanboy and not engaging or interacting with a work and its criticism in good faith.
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I'm at work and you deserve more than a oneliner as a reply, but I want to reply, just to put some thought into it: I said, calling out writing as bad, because you disagree or dislike it, is wrong. You can call writing bad, but that doesn't make it bad in the first place. Its your opinion and others might have another take on it. I for myself don't think I'm a huge fan of TWD. I enjoy the show and it entertains me, doesn't mean I am here to defend it in all places.
I already gave you credit for well-written critic points in your posts, but why would I need to agree completely? As I pointed out beforehand, critisicm should be an objective matter and for that matter, you need to have a base for your judgement. No one will agree with you, if you simply call out writing as bad, even though you make some points.
If you call out a movie as bad, because you disliked it is wrong. Calling a movie bad, because you dislike the way its being filmed (found footage for example) is also wrong. You need to judge the different parts of it. While I said I agree that the writing simply put is nothing special and especially not exciting, it feels at least realistic for the most part. When you have a post apocalypse scenario with normal people without any real story behind them, that should be a good point to focus on. Doesn't make the show great and exciting in terms of tension, action or character building, but certainly gives it the right feel.
If you were to write only bullshit in here, I wouldn't reply to you. I think your posts are well written and you put thought into it, just that I disagree with subjective judgement on writing. Disliking it or disagreeing with it and also pointing that out is fine. Calling out the writing as bad even though points you make I partly agree with, still is lacking criticism. I feel not only from you but also the fanboys, there's too much emotion involved in it.
Taken from a blog:
The second type of judgement is more detached and objective. Objectivity is best exemplified, in my opinion, in math. 2+2=4 no matter what any crackpot philosopher says. When you plug a concrete value into a concrete equation you get a concrete result. If I challenged the answer of 4 in the equation of 2+2 I would be either a fool, an intelligent fool, or a brilliant fool. No quantity of words and abstract explanations could change the answer. It is accepted as truth. So can a film be objectively good, even if I don’t particularly enjoy it?
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The question he asks, is exactly what you have to ask yourself. You have points, good points I agree with, some points I personally disagree with but that doesn't matter for an objective judgement. Now ask yourself, are the points you make objective, can you call out the writing as bad and do you do so, because you dislike it and disagree with it, or do you call it out as bad, because you want to make an objective judgement about the writing itself?
Sorry for my English not being up to par with yours, not my native language and I feel it makes it a lot harder to actually make a point. T_T
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Haha I was laughing when that prison guy was chatting and suddenly head shot, I was like WTF :D That was sudden.
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when I call TWD's writing bad instead of flawed - I don't believe I've crossed the event horizon of calling the entire show bad quite yet, because it occasionally has beautiful cinematography and scene composition while typically having fun action sequences - I do it for three distinct reasons:
- rhetorical. I'm not saying I'm trying to troll people or get them riled, but it would be disingenuous for me to claim that I don't take measures to make my posts interesting to read, to get people's attention.
- incidental shock/persuasion. we exist in a culture that has something of a tonedeaf attitude towards descriptive words re: overuse of amazing, wonderful, awesome etc. when I call something bad or even terrible, I don't believe it registers as much more than a blip on that radar, but when I combine that negative focus with long obnoxious paragraphs full of invective and reasoning for it, people actually understand that I mean it in a way that approaches a literal interpretation of those words and it either intrigues or incenses them (or bores them). I don't mind any of those reactions.
- personal. I liked TWD at one point. I would like to like it again at some point in the future. objectivity is impossible here though I try my hardest, as it is with essentially anyone who would style themselves a critic.
to actually answer your question, it has to be both; any pretense of objectivity is defeated not only by my relationship with the show but by my desire to be correct and vindicated. none of this means you can realistically ask more from me in terms of objectivity. what you see is what you get, and to impose this bar that discredits my opinion on the basis that I can't be pure enough to stand in judgment is simply another unnecessary defense mechanism.
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On February 20 2013 19:03 TheExile19 wrote:
finally, it's wrong to call the writing bad? in what moral sense? is this some sort of job creator/importance of gratifying the content creator spiel? this show's crew gave me 2 and a half seasons of good-verging-on-great content, if I was more of an optimist and believed that my voice mattered I'd be writing letters and posting on their forums instead of rattling cages here, because when you enjoy/care for something you shouldn't fear the negative reaction of the authors when you tell them you think they're fucking up royally. a corollary here, naturally, is that no one should feel the need to take up for them solely on behalf of their feelings, because then you're being a reactionary fanboy and not engaging or interacting with a work and its criticism in good faith.
You think that the second season was better than what we get now?
..really?
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rick is so fucking dumb holy shit
i really want to punch him in the face
He let one guy killed the black dude because of his fucking hallucinations and then go batshit crazy when he shouldve accepted the other group in
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Director should get punched in the face for that gun fight. I haven't seen a gunfight that bad since the 80's
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On February 20 2013 23:45 Erasme wrote:
rick is so fucking dumb holy shit
i really want to punch him in the face
He let one guy killed the black dude because of his fucking hallucinations and then go batshit crazy when he shouldve accepted the other group in
A black guy died in the last episode? Someone fill me in, please. I must've missed that part.
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No prisoners left now, RIP
Carol foreveralone.jpg
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On February 21 2013 02:00 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 23:45 Erasme wrote:
rick is so fucking dumb holy shit
i really want to punch him in the face
He let one guy killed the black dude because of his fucking hallucinations and then go batshit crazy when he shouldve accepted the other group in A black guy died in the last episode? Someone fill me in, please. I must've missed that part.
Whe they rescue Darryl and Merl, one of the two (ancient) inmate get shot because Rick is too busy hallucinating
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The woman who jumped out of the zombie filled van and fired some shots at Michonne was never shown dying or running away, was she?
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On February 21 2013 02:09 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 02:00 wongfeihung wrote:On February 20 2013 23:45 Erasme wrote:
rick is so fucking dumb holy shit
i really want to punch him in the face
He let one guy killed the black dude because of his fucking hallucinations and then go batshit crazy when he shouldve accepted the other group in A black guy died in the last episode? Someone fill me in, please. I must've missed that part. Whe they rescue Darryl and Merl, one of the two (ancient) inmate get shot because Rick is too busy hallucinating
Oh, ok. I thought you were referring to something that might've happened in the last episode. My mistake.
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regarding the police riot gear woman who jumped out of the 'zombie bomb van' she made a bee line for the exit, and it's safe to assume she just hopped in one of the other trucks and escaped with them. She wasn't there for combat, she was jsut there to deliver the package and gtfo.
also, I think a black person DID die, didn't the guy standing in next to the truck next to the Governor get shot? wasn't he black?
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On February 20 2013 22:10 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 19:03 TheExile19 wrote:
finally, it's wrong to call the writing bad? in what moral sense? is this some sort of job creator/importance of gratifying the content creator spiel? this show's crew gave me 2 and a half seasons of good-verging-on-great content, if I was more of an optimist and believed that my voice mattered I'd be writing letters and posting on their forums instead of rattling cages here, because when you enjoy/care for something you shouldn't fear the negative reaction of the authors when you tell them you think they're fucking up royally. a corollary here, naturally, is that no one should feel the need to take up for them solely on behalf of their feelings, because then you're being a reactionary fanboy and not engaging or interacting with a work and its criticism in good faith. You think that the second season was better than what we get now? ..really?
better than these two episodes? yes. I think I might prefer these episodes just for the sake of having things actually happen, and as a whole it'll almost certainly be a better overall season, but realistically this is the same dearth of action as the middle of season 2 with worse writing on display because they're trying to do more. an occasionally entertaining, risk-taking failure of a half season might technically have more propulsive events than the stalling tactics that made up season 2, but man, at least I gave two shits about the characters back then even if it wasn't necessarily warranted. rick vs. shane, dale preaching, rick and naive carl, even seeing lori and andrea be utter morons was new and interesting. now it's months and months later in the internal narrative, and nobody's gotten any smarter or more fun to watch since then even though we're stuck with them and their banal issues more and more often, because this show just won't stop and develop anyone that isn't named rick or daryl in any way. once they and the zombies are off-screen, the roof falls in.
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On February 20 2013 19:39 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Haha I was laughing when that prison guy was chatting and suddenly head shot, I was like WTF :D That was sudden.
It's sad.. He was working his way into Carol's pants.. They should've at least given him a moment of bliss before killing him.. =/
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On February 21 2013 03:26 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 22:10 Conti wrote:On February 20 2013 19:03 TheExile19 wrote:
finally, it's wrong to call the writing bad? in what moral sense? is this some sort of job creator/importance of gratifying the content creator spiel? this show's crew gave me 2 and a half seasons of good-verging-on-great content, if I was more of an optimist and believed that my voice mattered I'd be writing letters and posting on their forums instead of rattling cages here, because when you enjoy/care for something you shouldn't fear the negative reaction of the authors when you tell them you think they're fucking up royally. a corollary here, naturally, is that no one should feel the need to take up for them solely on behalf of their feelings, because then you're being a reactionary fanboy and not engaging or interacting with a work and its criticism in good faith. You think that the second season was better than what we get now? ..really? better than these two episodes? yes. I think I might prefer these episodes just for the sake of having things actually happen, and as a whole it'll almost certainly be a better overall season, but realistically this is the same dearth of action as the middle of season 2 with worse writing on display because they're trying to do more. an occasionally entertaining, risk-taking failure of a half season might technically have more propulsive events than the stalling tactics that made up season 2, but man, at least I gave two shits about the characters back then even if it wasn't necessarily warranted. rick vs. shane, dale preaching, rick and naive carl, even seeing lori and andrea be utter morons was new and interesting. now it's months and months later in the internal narrative, and nobody's gotten any smarter or more fun to watch since then even though we're stuck with them and their banal issues more and more often, because this show just won't stop and develop anyone that isn't named rick or daryl in any way. once they and the zombies are off-screen, the roof falls in.
I disagree with the point that the show doesn't develop characters past Rick and Daryl. Obviously you didn't exclusively mean only them two, but I feel the show's doing a great job of developing most of the group with the exception of Glen, Maggie and Beth, and even Hershell to a lesser extent. I also believe Michonn is going to be a gold mine when it comes to development in the next few episodes because she has such an enigmatic background which was only hinted at.
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EPT
