VG.J and Fnatic looks lost and subpar in the current tournament( a month ago i'd say either teams would win the entire thing). They're very much out of form while Optic looks just as good as when they played during the major
On April 15 2018 14:49 goody153 wrote: Optic is most likely gonna win.
VG.J and Fnatic looks lost and subpar in the current tournament( a month ago i'd say either teams would win the entire thing). They're very much out of form while Optic looks just as good as when they played during the major
Optic is favored, but EE & company can come in with a good plan and eek out wins. But Optic is a lot better than NaVi, so I don't expect Fnatic to be able to exploit the places Optic is weak. I also expect ppd to make sure Universe has a rough game, as he's the one that pulls out their wins for them over NaVi. Plus we can expect Optic to build their heroes for the game properly.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
They don't have a pos 5. Lebron is actually a "good enough" ward placer, but both he & lil are playing as pos 4. If they aren't roaming, they end up pretty poor and useless in the mid-game. Item builds have also been really questionable from them. Though I think General is the worst one at that. If the game goes late, it feels like he's itemizing for a different game.
On April 15 2018 16:12 Dota2_314 wrote: Is the time wrong on liquiddota or what is going on???? I already finished my coffee, and straem still didnt start.
Liquipedia is now saying 1h 40min. So apparently it's in a bit.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
They don't have a pos 5. Lebron is actually a "good enough" ward placer, but both he & lil are playing as pos 4. If they aren't roaming, they end up pretty poor and useless in the mid-game. Item builds have also been really questionable from them. Though I think General is the worst one at that. If the game goes late, it feels like he's itemizing for a different game.
Fair point. I feel the same about the supports but havent really looked at Gerneals performance that closely.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
They don't have a pos 5. Lebron is actually a "good enough" ward placer, but both he & lil are playing as pos 4. If they aren't roaming, they end up pretty poor and useless in the mid-game. Item builds have also been really questionable from them. Though I think General is the worst one at that. If the game goes late, it feels like he's itemizing for a different game.
Fair point. I feel the same about the supports but havent really looked at Gerneals performance that closely.
Probably the best example of NaVi's issues. They're against a Medusa, they have 1 pike (no forcestaffs), no Crimson or Pipe, and General doesn't have a Shiva's nor does either carry have an AC. There also isn't any evasion built on anyone, or at least a solar crest in the early game or even on the supports since the main cores were heavy right-click.
Also, since the game went really late, build a necrobook on your supports. Aside from adding more spam to eat up Medusa shots, it also has a mana burn that's a problem for her. Plus, against 4p1 Medusa, even the Tusk Aghs would have been good. Kick Medusa, while slowed, and kill the team then Medusa. Also works for high ground sieging.
NaVi for itemized for a game that wasn't happening and lost because of it.
I missed the actual draft, and I'm not sure this is a great draft by VGJ.T. However, you draft a Puck into an Underlord when you only have a gyro as carry? You need a lot more damage than that.
Vega has to build really, really tanky. VGJ.T has a lot of lock down, but if DP goes down early in a fight, they don't have a lot of damage for a while.
I'd like to see Viper go towards Radiance. Canceling blinks is going to be important and putting AoE damage into the supports as well.
On April 15 2018 19:15 Vertical wrote: FTM have Treant as their cheese hero Vega have Jakiro as their cheese hero
loving how these CIS teams are introducing new heroes in the meta and VGJ just straight out banning them
Jakiro isn't a cheese; Undershock makes it a pretty hard carry. There's a reason VGJ.T first banned it.
hmm... lets make things straight first what do you consider as cheese?
this is what Cheese Strategy is according to Liquipedia: Cheese Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
so Treant and core Jakiro is not a common picks which is unconventional, therefore I classify it as cheese. unless I'm not seeing enough pro games to knew this strategy. Since I only watched main events, no qualifiers or recurring cups.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
They don't have a pos 5. Lebron is actually a "good enough" ward placer, but both he & lil are playing as pos 4. If they aren't roaming, they end up pretty poor and useless in the mid-game. Item builds have also been really questionable from them. Though I think General is the worst one at that. If the game goes late, it feels like he's itemizing for a different game.
Fair point. I feel the same about the supports but havent really looked at Gerneals performance that closely.
Probably the best example of NaVi's issues. They're against a Medusa, they have 1 pike (no forcestaffs), no Crimson or Pipe, and General doesn't have a Shiva's nor does either carry have an AC. There also isn't any evasion built on anyone, or at least a solar crest in the early game or even on the supports since the main cores were heavy right-click.
Also, since the game went really late, build a necrobook on your supports. Aside from adding more spam to eat up Medusa shots, it also has a mana burn that's a problem for her. Plus, against 4p1 Medusa, even the Tusk Aghs would have been good. Kick Medusa, while slowed, and kill the team then Medusa. Also works for high ground sieging.
NaVi for itemized for a game that wasn't happening and lost because of it.
You can't say Navi has bad itemization at 50 min mark while completely ignoring the rationale behind their itemization from 20-40min.
Those heroes aren't really surprising for any team that is playing Vega. They've played them quite a bit online.
But other teams (or regions) aren't really playing some of their signature picks to the same extent so teams may misjudge how strong something is because they haven't played against it. For example Fnatic was 1st banning Treant against Vega in one game and took it away from them in the other. They let Jakiro through thinking they could beat it, but it turned out otherwise
On April 15 2018 19:38 spudde123 wrote: Those heroes aren't really surprising for any team that is playing Vega. They've played them quite a bit online.
But other teams (or regions) aren't really playing some of their signature picks to the same extent so teams may misjudge how strong something is because they haven't played against it. For example Fnatic was 1st banning Treant against Vega in one game and took it away from them in the other. They let Jakiro through thinking they could beat it, but it turned out otherwise
well that sums it. I didn't watched FTM and Vega enough.
On April 15 2018 15:38 MarthTV wrote: Wasnt able to watch yesterday. How did NaVi perform? Was it alright or did Fnatic and SG underperform?
NaVi was able to run heavy laning pressure in a classic CIS approach against fairly weak laning from SG, which let NaVi snowball.
Against Fnatic, NaVi ran into the problems they're having against top-tier teams. They don't have item synergy, so the end up with a lot of net worth that has little value. Though, at this LAN, I'd honestly say I feel NaVi is the better team, but Fnatic has more complete strategies. Game 2 is worth watching, but Game 3 turned on Crystallize getting picked off then NaVi trying to take a fight around Roshan into a Warlock.
Funny part about the group stage is that, for all of the massive game lengths between NaVi & Fnatic, the Meta hasn't actually changed. Strong lanes into Win The Team Fight into quick building takers.
Thank you for the recap!
Alright so not bad but not stellar either. Will watch G2.
I really wonder what roster changes they will make. Pretty sure they wont stay in this formation.
They don't have a pos 5. Lebron is actually a "good enough" ward placer, but both he & lil are playing as pos 4. If they aren't roaming, they end up pretty poor and useless in the mid-game. Item builds have also been really questionable from them. Though I think General is the worst one at that. If the game goes late, it feels like he's itemizing for a different game.
Fair point. I feel the same about the supports but havent really looked at Gerneals performance that closely.
Probably the best example of NaVi's issues. They're against a Medusa, they have 1 pike (no forcestaffs), no Crimson or Pipe, and General doesn't have a Shiva's nor does either carry have an AC. There also isn't any evasion built on anyone, or at least a solar crest in the early game or even on the supports since the main cores were heavy right-click.
Also, since the game went really late, build a necrobook on your supports. Aside from adding more spam to eat up Medusa shots, it also has a mana burn that's a problem for her. Plus, against 4p1 Medusa, even the Tusk Aghs would have been good. Kick Medusa, while slowed, and kill the team then Medusa. Also works for high ground sieging.
NaVi for itemized for a game that wasn't happening and lost because of it.
You can't say Navi has bad itemization at 50 min mark while completely ignoring the rationale behind their itemization from 20-40min.
You're going high ground against a Medusa without any armor, evasion or ways of limiting the Medusa's right-click DPS output.
Good tournament from Vega, they look on the upswing. Drafts against a team with time to prepare is a lot harder to deal with. Also some good drafts from VGJ.T.
Also, VGJ.T switched their 1 & 2 mid-tournament. That's kind of a big deal.
its an okay tournament for Vega they beat who they could've beat which is SG and surprises us by beating fnatic, not a huge huge upset though and ends up losing against a tier 2 team
On April 15 2018 20:11 Vertical wrote: its an okay tournament for Vega they beat who they could've beat which is SG and surprises us by beating fnatic, not a huge huge upset though and ends up losing against a tier 2 team
Teams need LAN experience and this is a young Vega roster. Rotk just out-drafted them, it happens and hopefully they can adjust and do well in their next LANs.
The TB is pretty easy to handle for Optic for now but TA has been left completely unchecked. Not that Optic's heroes could have done much to him so they sort of had to follow EE around a bit
On April 15 2018 21:02 Pandemona wrote: PPD making Fnatic look good atm xd
Naga + Pango is a far better laning combo than I think anyone had thought, minus Fnatic, and it ruined Optic's lanes. Also kind of a bad laning phase by Zai + 33.
On April 15 2018 21:02 Pandemona wrote: PPD making Fnatic look good atm xd
Naga + Pango is a far better laning combo than I think anyone had thought, minus Fnatic, and it ruined Optic's lanes. Also kind of a bad laning phase by Zai + 33.
For me though, Fnatic first picked Naga EVERY GAME this lan when could of course, why not first phase ban it xD
Well Fnatic wasn't particularly convincing with Naga even if they picked it 3 times in the 1st series against NaVi. Not sure why Optic or others would be persuaded to ban it based on that series
Once Fnatic gets BKBs on TA and TB and the 2nd rosh this should end
On April 15 2018 21:02 Pandemona wrote: PPD making Fnatic look good atm xd
Naga + Pango is a far better laning combo than I think anyone had thought, minus Fnatic, and it ruined Optic's lanes. Also kind of a bad laning phase by Zai + 33.
For me though, Fnatic first picked Naga EVERY GAME this lan when could of course, why not first phase ban it xD
adam isn't very good on the hero, actually, but with Universe on that side lane there is clearly a synergy no one had thought about. Though I think the real problem is how badly the laning went for Zai & 33. I'm not sure what went so badly, but Optic lost 2 lanes and that gave room for TA to farm like made after the laning phase.
One of Naga's main strengths is being a strong dual offlaner. I don't think that came as a surprise.
TB is a strong laner if you can't kill him because he wins the first wave really hard with meta and is hard to click down due to high armor. WD is also one of the better laning supports. Not sure how much better Optic could have done bottom.
On April 15 2018 21:25 goody153 wrote: Idk why the casters are having orgasms with pajkatt. This was obviously a pretty good morphling game with enough items and levels
Because they've been casting Fnatic games for 3 days.
Even with this sort of a NW lead Fnatic's cores are really reliant on BKBs. And Optic has some ghost scepters to prevent Fnatic from killing them during those.
Optic can't contest in a straight up 5v5 outside the base but base defense may still be doable.
Also Tsunami's commentary about "just stick together" seems pretty silly. You stick together as 5 and Morph and Puck just split push and you can never do anything. The reason Fnatic splits up is to out farm and keep the lanes in. Earlier it just went a bit poorly because Abed thought he could solo Morph but he barely didn't have enough damage. And then he didn't think he could die and didn't pop BKB defensively
On April 15 2018 21:25 goody153 wrote: Idk why the casters are having orgasms with pajkatt. This was obviously a pretty good morphling game with enough items and levels
It's also a good TA game after the laning stage went so well.
On April 15 2018 21:25 goody153 wrote: Idk why the casters are having orgasms with pajkatt. This was obviously a pretty good morphling game with enough items and levels
Because they've been casting Fnatic games for 3 days.
That's somehow understandable. Or either they just love optic(english talents seem to love optic since ever)
On April 15 2018 21:25 goody153 wrote: Idk why the casters are having orgasms with pajkatt. This was obviously a pretty good morphling game with enough items and levels
It's also a good TA game after the laning stage went so well.
we're past that stage already. Fnatic didn't push the issue harder that's why we're stuck in the state where morphling is the best core in this game.
On April 15 2018 21:36 goody153 wrote: ET+Morphling shotgun literally one-shots everybody that isn't TA this game. Fnatic needs lotus/linkens stacking this game to actually win it late
Yeah I think Fnatic should have used the supports being so rich to get such items. They have huge amounts of gold on supports but it isn't doing anything if they can't keep the TB alive when base sieging
On April 15 2018 21:36 goody153 wrote: ET+Morphling shotgun literally one-shots everybody that isn't TA this game. Fnatic needs lotus/linkens stacking this game to actually win it late
Yeah I think Fnatic should have used the supports being so rich to get such items. They have huge amounts of gold on supports but it isn't doing anything if they can't keep the TB alive when base sieging
Or TA
Multiple linkens + lotus stops morphling from murdering the important cores through burst and i think TB+TA beats morphling in a fight.
Seriously optic only has 2 other single target linkens breaking spell they just have to linken stack this game. Did pros forget about this kind of strat that shit has happened many times in the past
On April 15 2018 21:42 goody153 wrote: Seriously optic only has 2 other single target linkens breaking spell they just have to linken stack this game. Did pros forget about this kind of strat that shit has happened many times in the past
Have you watched a Fnatic game before? They suck at tactics & strategy after 45 minutes.
On April 15 2018 21:42 goody153 wrote: Seriously optic only has 2 other single target linkens breaking spell they just have to linken stack this game. Did pros forget about this kind of strat that shit has happened many times in the past
Have you watched a Fnatic game before? They suck at tactics & strategy after 45 minutes.
I have alot. They don't suck that much but they tend to play conservative or the safe strats
On April 15 2018 21:42 goody153 wrote: Seriously optic only has 2 other single target linkens breaking spell they just have to linken stack this game. Did pros forget about this kind of strat that shit has happened many times in the past
Feels like lately there have been more casters just harping on and on about NW difference instead of talking about what actually matters in the game. The NW difference doesn't mean anything if Optic just sits in base and Fnatic don't have the items to keep their frontliner alive during base siege
this transition in casting happend slowly over the last years, in the past there was a hypecaster and a analyst, now there a just two hype casters who only talk about the moment.
Fnatic waited to long BB on morph was back and now its status que and they need to wait for rosh and OG has time to farm more... its getting harder and harder for the them.
I am afraid to say it but this will turn into a full envy game
dont like that EE is switching S&Y for a butterfly he need a heart or satanics
All EE has to do is buy items that makes him survive their burst combo, but I guess that is too hard. This game will probably go on for quite some time until Optic gets the item to just win.
If only Fnatic immediately went for the linkens stacking after seeing TB getting one-shot by morphling. We wouldn't have seen this insanely prolonged game
On April 15 2018 21:58 BigO wrote: All EE has to do is buy items that makes him survive their burst combo, but I guess that is too hard. This game will probably go on for quite some time until Optic gets the item to just win.
They probably could have bought an earlier linkens on him, a linkens on WD and a linkens on Naga. What Fnatic did well with the lead was controlling the entire map and farming on all 5 heroes, but them going for offensive items on WD and Naga too almost cost them
On April 15 2018 22:00 goody153 wrote: If only Fnatic immediately went for the linkens stacking after seeing TB getting one-shot by morphling. We wouldn't have seen this insanely prolonged game
Guys TB still beats other carries
Agreed, but my point still stands. EE-based teams get in these situations, and have for years & will continue to. If Fnatic isn't snowballing lanes, they're not a very good team.
On April 15 2018 21:58 BigO wrote: All EE has to do is buy items that makes him survive their burst combo, but I guess that is too hard. This game will probably go on for quite some time until Optic gets the item to just win.
They probably could have bought an earlier linkens on him, a linkens on WD and a linkens on Naga. What Fnatic did well with the lead was controlling the entire map and farming on all 5 heroes, but them going for offensive items on WD and Naga too almost cost them
Yeah they would've won with simply the linkens stacking but WD went for aghs and Naga went for none-linkens
Thank you this didnt end up beeing fnatic going full EE. But i dont understand them either, the Moph is bursting us how about i buy a refresher... hey morph is still bursting us butterfly would be great? And finally way to late they startet stacking one shot counters and won the game.
On April 15 2018 22:00 goody153 wrote: If only Fnatic immediately went for the linkens stacking after seeing TB getting one-shot by morphling. We wouldn't have seen this insanely prolonged game
Guys TB still beats other carries
Agreed, but my point still stands. EE-based teams get in these situations, and have for years & will continue to. If Fnatic isn't snowballing lanes, they're not a very good team.
I mean it's an EE-based team. His teams has plenty of games where they comeback from a deficit in fact his earlier teams(first 3 iteration of c9) won alot of games through comebacks and was characteristically their personal playstyle where they prolong the game and make plays from behind.
I'd rather they play from ahead tho rather than behind
On April 15 2018 22:04 its_a_me wrote: Thank you this didnt end up beeing fnatic going full EE. But i dont understand them either, the Moph is bursting us how about i buy a refresher... hey morph is still bursting us butterfly would be great? And finally way to late they startet stacking one shot counters and won the game.
EE never bought a refresher and he had both bkb and linkens himself. The refreshers were just the shards from rosh
Yea flame Fnatic like they were so close to losing. They were never in danger of losing this game. Optic didn't even come close to even contesting roshan lmao.
On April 15 2018 22:07 goody153 wrote: Oddly nobody from either team brought aeon disk this game. With how hot the item is recently i would've expected at least one this game
Fnatic wouldn't and Optic was so poor for most of it that it didn't make the most sense.
On April 15 2018 22:08 babysimba wrote: Yea flame Fnatic like they were so close to losing. They were never in danger of losing this game. Optic didn't even come close to even contesting roshan lmao.
I disagree once morphling and DK hit 6 slots and fnatic still hadn't gotten megas it was already worrying since the only reason Optic wasn't making alot of rotations and calls outside their base was because fnatic manages to always force a buyback from Morphling/DK throughout the rosh timings and sieges.
Good thing fnatic understood that they can actually lose in an open 5v5. And optic doesn't really go insane when they are behind(not a team that would go make risky calls)
On April 15 2018 22:07 goody153 wrote: Oddly nobody from either team brought aeon disk this game. With how hot the item is recently i would've expected at least one this game
Fnatic wouldn't and Optic was so poor for most of it that it didn't make the most sense.
That's fair. Maybe TB gets one ? I think it would've always kept him always alive regardless of the surprise factor(he's just gonna sunder after)
Just weird but it make sense that nobody would pick it up this game.
Fnatic is going to get so much practice for these super-lategames with how their games are going. It might actually benefit them hugely in the long run.
On April 15 2018 22:08 babysimba wrote: Yea flame Fnatic like they were so close to losing. They were never in danger of losing this game. Optic didn't even come close to even contesting roshan lmao.
I disagree once morphling and DK hit 6 slots and fnatic still hadn't gotten megas it was already worrying since the only reason Optic wasn't making alot of rotations and calls outside their base was because fnatic manages to always force a buyback from Morphling/DK throughout the rosh timings and sieges.
Good thing fnatic understood that they can actually lose in an open 5v5. And optic doesn't really go insane when they are behind(not a team that would go make risky calls)
TA trap vision. That really pinned Optic in the base.
On April 15 2018 22:13 Mosoball wrote: Fnatic is going to get so much practice for these super-lategames with how their games are going. It might actually benefit them hugely in the long run.
It could also backfire to them make them start doubting their own ability to end games. It could be a way of burnout to them
On April 15 2018 22:08 babysimba wrote: Yea flame Fnatic like they were so close to losing. They were never in danger of losing this game. Optic didn't even come close to even contesting roshan lmao.
I disagree once morphling and DK hit 6 slots and fnatic still hadn't gotten megas it was already worrying since the only reason Optic wasn't making alot of rotations and calls outside their base was because fnatic manages to always force a buyback from Morphling/DK throughout the rosh timings and sieges.
Good thing fnatic understood that they can actually lose in an open 5v5. And optic doesn't really go insane when they are behind(not a team that would go make risky calls)
TA trap vision. That really pinned Optic in the base.
Yeah it made a difference too, Since they could more or less guess a smoke play with it or if they're safe since Optic never goes 2-3 man smokes .
Optic was only capable of winning fights because they were abusing null field and ET aura spell amplification. Their supports were able to position safely in their own base.
Only NA picks morph because morph lineup is often able to win them more lanes and then snowball. Almost no other region picks morph. It is no longer the late game beast that it was before ever since it was changed not being able to morph when stunned. It is extremely reliant on bkb to win late game fights now.
Optic has to be a bit careful though no matter how underfarmed SF/Weaver is. They still have 4 -armor heroes and bkb piercing disables and catch capacity
It's understandable if you get outdrafted by a Broodmother or Huskar or Storm. Those are occasional picks and that can be extremely good in circumstances
but come on Fnatic you get outdrafted by a lastpick PL in a PL META? Rofl
On April 15 2018 22:54 goody153 wrote: If you think about it and this SF is instead a DK. Fnatic won't actually have the problem of never outscaling PL
I'm coming to the opinion that, unless you have a really key 1-4 picks, that 2nd pick/final pick is the best choice in the drafting right now.
On April 15 2018 22:54 goody153 wrote: If you think about it and this SF is instead a DK. Fnatic won't actually have the problem of never outscaling PL
I'm coming to the opinion that, unless you have a really key 1-4 picks, that 2nd pick/final pick is the best choice in the drafting right now.
Tbh it's the final PL pick by optic that kinda grates my nerves that Fnatic didn't anticipate that. PL is one of the most picked and most understood hero this past few months and they did not expect a PL pick
On April 15 2018 22:54 goody153 wrote: If you think about it and this SF is instead a DK. Fnatic won't actually have the problem of never outscaling PL
I'm coming to the opinion that, unless you have a really key 1-4 picks, that 2nd pick/final pick is the best choice in the drafting right now.
Tbh it's the final PL pick by optic that kinda grates my nerves that Fnatic didn't anticipate that. PL is one of the most picked and most understood hero this past few months and they did not expect a PL pick
just disappointing
They banned Tidehunter for the last ban by Fnatic in game 2, so they thought Pajkatt was playing Razor.
On April 15 2018 22:54 goody153 wrote: If you think about it and this SF is instead a DK. Fnatic won't actually have the problem of never outscaling PL
I'm coming to the opinion that, unless you have a really key 1-4 picks, that 2nd pick/final pick is the best choice in the drafting right now.
Tbh it's the final PL pick by optic that kinda grates my nerves that Fnatic didn't anticipate that. PL is one of the most picked and most understood hero this past few months and they did not expect a PL pick
just disappointing
They banned Tidehunter for the last ban by Fnatic in game 2, so they thought Pajkatt was playing Razor.
On April 15 2018 22:54 goody153 wrote: If you think about it and this SF is instead a DK. Fnatic won't actually have the problem of never outscaling PL
I'm coming to the opinion that, unless you have a really key 1-4 picks, that 2nd pick/final pick is the best choice in the drafting right now.
Tbh it's the final PL pick by optic that kinda grates my nerves that Fnatic didn't anticipate that. PL is one of the most picked and most understood hero this past few months and they did not expect a PL pick
just disappointing
They banned Tidehunter for the last ban by Fnatic in game 2, so they thought Pajkatt was playing Razor.
They banned Brood, not Tide
Good point, that was game 1. My bad.
On April 15 2018 23:15 babysimba wrote: PPD get treant to fuck this pango up
I'd love to see it, but the pos 4 version seems better than pos 5.
On April 15 2018 23:27 spudde123 wrote: How did that gank work on mid lol
You see this kind of shit and you question why they replaced pieliedie with adam
I wrote my thoughts in the 343 thread but judging from the interview EE had at SL my guess is that it's not actually a replacement but just something is going on with PLD which forced him to sit out and they don't want to share what it is so they came up with a weird excuse about "cohesion".
On April 15 2018 23:31 Taf the Ghost wrote: How does Fnatic take towers?
Naix rage in-out. Or naix plays the bait then if optic focuses him they have kunkka/pango who just blows up the backline who are all squishy then they just push if they managed to do that
On April 15 2018 23:27 spudde123 wrote: How did that gank work on mid lol
You see this kind of shit and you question why they replaced pieliedie with adam
I wrote my thoughts in the 343 thread but judging from the interview EE had at SL my guess is that it's not actually a replacement but just something is going on with PLD which forced him to sit out and they don't want to share what it is so they came up with a weird excuse about "cohesion".
Yeah i feel like they've said "replaced" or other similar words if they really did replace pieliedie. Maybe it's still an ongoing decision since i don't think they're willing to give up their TI points and go through open qualis unlike OG who was clearly not working out at all
To me this game feels really hard for Fnatic. Their teamfight is really good but I don't see how they get into positions to get those fights. Optic will just kill waves super fast and farm
On April 15 2018 23:31 Taf the Ghost wrote: How does Fnatic take towers?
Naix rage in-out. Or naix plays the bait then if optic focuses him they have kunkka/pango who just blows up the backline who are all squishy then they just push if they managed to do that
Even raged, ranged right-click from Lina and if not raged, Rubick & Kotl. Also, good luck getting a wave to the tower.
On April 15 2018 23:31 Taf the Ghost wrote: How does Fnatic take towers?
Naix rage in-out. Or naix plays the bait then if optic focuses him they have kunkka/pango who just blows up the backline who are all squishy then they just push if they managed to do that
Even raged, ranged right-click from Lina and if not raged, Rubick & Kotl. Also, good luck getting a wave to the tower.
You underestimate lategame kunkka and the ridiculous range that his passive has, optic drafted a lineup that is one crit away from everybody just dying like a pig. Lina doesn't do enough damage until really late into the game where the naix rage in-out becomes hard
On April 15 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote: This is another fnatic linkens/lotus orb game. Nobody is gonna get initiated easily if they just buy those defensive items
I think Fnatic will just get pulled apart by Optic's lane push and will never end up getting proper fights. Optic doesn't have to do anything and they will outfarm Fnatic really hard, and Fnatic's pickoff potential isn't that great
On April 15 2018 23:44 goody153 wrote: was SnY buffed ? why is everybody buying SnY even the Manta heroes are opting SnY
Everyone was team fighting at 20 minutes on, so Gyro had to build early fighting. We're at 8-11 at 21 minutes, a lot less fighting.
I mean i am even seeing TB building SnY over Manta almost all the time. I understand gyro it's one of its core items
I think it was just the Meta shift from DAC. Everyone was winning a team fight at 20-25 min and win game at 30 minute. Everyone was building early & push. It hasn't made the most sense, but it won some games.
On April 15 2018 23:49 spudde123 wrote: This game seems completely over. Fnatic can't create any opportunities because Optic just pushes all lanes in without even needing to show on the map.
And I don't think Fnatic has a good enough Naga combo to kill Optic when they push either
Yeah disappointing performance from Fnatic. Should've been another finals showup by them since Optic is not that very difficult to beat
On April 15 2018 23:49 spudde123 wrote: This game seems completely over. Fnatic can't create any opportunities because Optic just pushes all lanes in without even needing to show on the map.
And I don't think Fnatic has a good enough Naga combo to kill Optic when they push either
Yeah disappointing performance from Fnatic. Should've been another finals showup by them since Optic is not that very difficult to beat
To me it feels like they are quite a bit weaker due to trying to accommodate Adam. DJ isn't getting to play his usual heroes really
On April 15 2018 23:49 spudde123 wrote: This game seems completely over. Fnatic can't create any opportunities because Optic just pushes all lanes in without even needing to show on the map.
And I don't think Fnatic has a good enough Naga combo to kill Optic when they push either
Yeah disappointing performance from Fnatic. Should've been another finals showup by them since Optic is not that very difficult to beat
To me it feels like they are quite a bit weaker due to trying to accommodate Adam. DJ isn't getting to play his usual heroes really
He's playing as 5 it's weird. DJ is usually playing a greedy support
On April 15 2018 23:49 spudde123 wrote: This game seems completely over. Fnatic can't create any opportunities because Optic just pushes all lanes in without even needing to show on the map.
And I don't think Fnatic has a good enough Naga combo to kill Optic when they push either
Yeah disappointing performance from Fnatic. Should've been another finals showup by them since Optic is not that very difficult to beat
To me it feels like they are quite a bit weaker due to trying to accommodate Adam. DJ isn't getting to play his usual heroes really
That's why they left the Naga in. Adam isn't very good on the hero. That Naga + Pango lane was a really surprisingly strong and it caught Optic offguard.
On April 15 2018 23:49 spudde123 wrote: This game seems completely over. Fnatic can't create any opportunities because Optic just pushes all lanes in without even needing to show on the map.
And I don't think Fnatic has a good enough Naga combo to kill Optic when they push either
Yeah disappointing performance from Fnatic. Should've been another finals showup by them since Optic is not that very difficult to beat
To me it feels like they are quite a bit weaker due to trying to accommodate Adam. DJ isn't getting to play his usual heroes really
He's playing as 5 it's weird. DJ is usually playing a greedy support
Adam said after yesterday's game it's because he isn't comfortable playing a laning support and can roam better.
This game felt like a pretty nice draft from Optic. Unless Fnatic managed to somehow outplay them early on, it's really hard to do anything and really hard to screw up as Optic. They could even push at night time and Fnatic couldn't defend their base at all because they have no initiation
Nobody is taking over the "Aui" role that DJ used to do, which is shoving in lanes for better map position.
This game is majority on Universe. Pango isn't a good pick off hero. He forces good engagement through better map control by constantly shoving in lanes. Instead, Universe just played like a initiator pickoff hero that hides in fog entire game.
On April 15 2018 23:59 babysimba wrote: Nobody is taking over the "Aui" role that DJ used to do, which is shoving in lanes for better map position.
This game is majority on Universe. Pango isn't a good pick off hero. He forces good engagement through better map control by constantly shoving in lanes. Instead, Universe just played like a initiator pickoff hero that hides in fog entire game.
The AA pick was game losing. They were stuck static laning and DJ had nothing to do. You've got a "wait & farm up" against a BM, Gyro, Kotl & Lina, who are much better early game farmers.
Fnatic drafted themselves into a corner and if they didn't have that surprising combo in game 1, they'd have gotten 2-0'd.
On April 16 2018 00:11 Taf the Ghost wrote: In semi-unrelated news, was Pajkatt ever this good on any other team?
He's always been good at hitting creeps. This team they have PPD drafts to grab advantages that way to make Pajkatt space. Pajkatt's strenght is when he doesn't have to do anything active to win the game.
Edit: Of course I might be wrong, this is just my opinion.
On April 16 2018 00:11 Taf the Ghost wrote: In semi-unrelated news, was Pajkatt ever this good on any other team?
He's always been good at hitting creeps. This team they have PPD drafts to grab advantages that way to make Pajkatt space. Pajkatt's strenght is when he doesn't have to do anything active to win the game.
Edit: Of course I might be wrong, this is just my opinion.
On April 16 2018 00:32 uthgard wrote: I think he started being really good on navi, but he was inconsistent there because of additional burden of being shot-caller/drafter
on the other hand, looks like fnatic gonna go back to pie. I don't really see the improvement with 343
Based on Envy's interview, I really doubt this was a permanent situation anyway. I do not see them having a hard-on on Adam playing, especially based on their play with him in the battle-cup. Something else was going on, and we won't be hearing what until after the team disbands, or even after that.
Wow the vac into lion stun was nice, caught 3 heroes and then he just blew up SF. VGJ clearly are still in this one right, casters seem to say the opposite?
Well VGJ have reflection and wall to defend for late game. If Optic don't end the game early or gain enough advantage, they are going to get fucked soon.
They can grab underlord and sf aura for themselves through illusions too
Yeah its starting.....VGJ back in it. That was a sick echo after a perfect stun from Lion and then a great echo from Zai but they still lost heroes and forced buyback from PPD originally.
VAC WALL IS BACK? I was in a pub after patch and the illusions from the wall high like a truck now lol
Also tbf, if DS is back in the meta or is on its way back into competitive play...PPD going to be very happy, he picks it every game on EG xd 5 heroes to kill a TB...hmm xd
fu** biased comentator who wins it ?!?!?! definetely VGJ Optic burst soooo much buy back to be equal on that battle and now lost the roshan because "lost" buy backs
The DS actually was really, really important, amazingly enough in this draft, but that's only because of what he does for a TB line up. I don't think it works if you aren't protecting the TB until late game.
Though leaving TB in the pool is a ppd special, since he thinks he can beat anything and wants to force you to prove you can win with it.
On April 16 2018 01:55 Wintex wrote: Truly a game ruined by icefrog not nerfing lategame tb. thanksSSSSSS
I also hate him but his winrate in DAC is around 50% so Im not expecting nerf anytime
Winrate doesn't mean shit. he's being played vs players that literally know exactly how to fuck with him and all, and still wins as long as he doesn`t get popped by any means within the smallest margin. He's not a difficult carry to play late, and the rewards you get for playing him are literally insane. it's not difficult to have a teammate lotus you so you can spam bkb and sunder/reflection.
It's way too unpunishing. Even a mana cost increase of A LOT wouldn't solve the fact that sunder and reflection are two of the best spells in the game late. Especially on a carry.
edit: heck, the fights where SF got targeted by reflection removed like 50% of his hp easily.
On April 16 2018 01:55 Wintex wrote: Truly a game ruined by icefrog not nerfing lategame tb. thanksSSSSSS
I also hate him but his winrate in DAC is around 50% so Im not expecting nerf anytime
Winrate doesn't mean shit. he's being played vs players that literally know exactly how to fuck with him and all, and still wins as long as he doesn`t get popped by any means within the smallest margin. He's not a difficult carry to play late, and the rewards you get for playing him are literally insane. it's not difficult to have a teammate lotus you so you can spam bkb and sunder/reflection.
It's way too unpunishing. Even a mana cost increase of A LOT wouldn't solve the fact that sunder and reflection are two of the best spells in the game late. Especially on a carry.
edit: heck, the fights where SF got targeted by reflection removed like 50% of his hp easily.
Teams that itemize better actually get punished by fighting TB.
On April 16 2018 01:55 Wintex wrote: Truly a game ruined by icefrog not nerfing lategame tb. thanksSSSSSS
I also hate him but his winrate in DAC is around 50% so Im not expecting nerf anytime
Winrate doesn't mean shit. he's being played vs players that literally know exactly how to fuck with him and all, and still wins as long as he doesn`t get popped by any means within the smallest margin. He's not a difficult carry to play late, and the rewards you get for playing him are literally insane. it's not difficult to have a teammate lotus you so you can spam bkb and sunder/reflection.
It's way too unpunishing. Even a mana cost increase of A LOT wouldn't solve the fact that sunder and reflection are two of the best spells in the game late. Especially on a carry.
edit: heck, the fights where SF got targeted by reflection removed like 50% of his hp easily.
Teams that itemize better actually get punished by fighting TB.
Yeah, it's just illogical to see something like this in the game now. I don't understand how you can balance a game and just fail to nerf one or two things every patch that obviously are stupid AF. sniper troll during 6.83, lesh and lina to some extent in 84. Gyro getting a soft nerf and TB getting none the past few patches is truly impressive. Ugh.
On April 16 2018 02:41 babysimba wrote: Losing early game to such greedy lion and shaker supports is pretty worrisome.
Well 33 went for dumb Medallion first build instead of Dominator and fed with his birds quite a bit. Was expecting a better Visage game, I am not impressed.
On April 16 2018 02:41 babysimba wrote: Losing early game to such greedy lion and shaker supports is pretty worrisome.
Well 33 went for dumb Medallion first build instead of Dominator and fed with his birds quite a bit. Was expecting a better Visage game, I am not impressed.
On April 16 2018 02:41 babysimba wrote: Losing early game to such greedy lion and shaker supports is pretty worrisome.
Well 33 went for dumb Medallion first build instead of Dominator and fed with his birds quite a bit. Was expecting a better Visage game, I am not impressed.
Medallion first is good
There is a reason why nobody at top level gets Medallion first anymore. Dominator gives you heavily needed sustain and speeds up your farming quite a bit. You are also harder to gank because of the regen, creep that can stop the gank all together, and creep also tanks tower shots when you tower dive with familiars, which is the exact reason why he has lost his familiars early multiple times. After Dominator you get Medallion really fast, and if you rush Medallion it takes some time to get Dominator especially if you are being harassed in the lane when you are without regen.
I spam Visage a lot, he is probably my favorite hero in the game and I was also rushing Medallion most of the time and when I tried Dominator first in few games I haven't looked back since then, it isn't even comparable.
It's amusing that VGJ.T prioritizes DP so much. Considering how often top-tier teams spank them for being predictable, you'd think they'd expand their core pool.
On April 16 2018 03:53 CosmicSpiral wrote: It's amusing that VGJ.T prioritizes DP so much. Considering how often top-tier teams spank them for being predictable, you'd think they'd expand their core pool.
I feel like that's the problem with most Chinese teams right now. They don't experiment enough and just keep playing with the heroes they are comfortable.
On April 16 2018 04:05 its_a_me wrote: why the F he picked puck?
VG had a game against VP, where Ori destroyed Ramzes Brood with Puck, he hasn't skilled Phase shift, maxed Orb and Rift, kept feeding on Spiderlings and had like ~50 cs at 4-5 minutes, had Veil without boots as first item, and Ramzes could barely do anything.
That happened mostly because VP were unprepared for something like that, Puck without Phase shift is quite easy to pressure and gank, and if Brood knows what he is doing he won't let you feed that much on Spiderlings.
On April 16 2018 04:05 its_a_me wrote: why the F he picked puck?
They've been switching Sylar & Freeze around suddenly, and I think there's some strategy/play issues in the team. Though I really want to run with the 'Nam flashbacks angle, haha.
What ppd is doing is exploiting weak laning in the draft by VGJ.T. Brood exploits it best, so he picks brood and Rotk is out of ideas. Too bad no one could play the Jakiro, as showed how well that worked.
All 3 games kind off won because of 33 haha. I usually don't like anything on SK before blink(apart from some small items) but this Pipe pick up was pure win in this game, they just can't kill him at all unless they commit everything, and he just can keep running at them and initiate with impales. Also love the fact that he got Treads and with maxed Caustic farms really fast.
On April 16 2018 04:58 Ramiz1989 wrote: All 3 games kind off won because of 33 haha. I usually don't like anything on SK before blink(apart from some small items) but this Pipe pick up was pure win in this game, they just can't kill him at all unless they commit everything, and he just can keep running at them and initiate with impales. Also love the fact that he got Treads and with maxed Caustic farms really fast.
On April 16 2018 05:03 babysimba wrote: And I remember how casters flamed SamH build when he did so much work in that game.
Well, they had no initiation and didn't for until about 30 minutes, then it locked the game in. You could see why it worked against Tiny at the bottom lane fight where the whole combo did less than 40% dmg.
On April 16 2018 04:58 Ramiz1989 wrote: All 3 games kind off won because of 33 haha. I usually don't like anything on SK before blink(apart from some small items) but this Pipe pick up was pure win in this game, they just can't kill him at all unless they commit everything, and he just can keep running at them and initiate with impales. Also love the fact that he got Treads and with maxed Caustic farms really fast.
On April 16 2018 04:58 Ramiz1989 wrote: All 3 games kind off won because of 33 haha. I usually don't like anything on SK before blink(apart from some small items) but this Pipe pick up was pure win in this game, they just can't kill him at all unless they commit everything, and he just can keep running at them and initiate with impales. Also love the fact that he got Treads and with maxed Caustic farms really fast.
Oh Fnatic lost? Sounds like Universe didnt change much of their current performance, of course i agree we need to give them more time and definately they played with stand in Adam.
Keep changing rotation is not a good idea i guess. If we would want to compare head to head, take Mineski as counterpart for Fantic
Abed is better than Moonn EE is better than Mushi (currently) Universe is more well known than Ice3 DJ & PLD are as good as Jabz + nb
EPT
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