On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
This is far from the first time this has been used competitively. But the hillarious thing is how everyone who is whining is posting about how the game "should" work. Terrible mindset that leads to league of legends balance and starcraft level bitching.
DS + Naga Siren was much worse than this. IMO Phantom Lancer late game is worse right now. But I don't let any of it bother me, because DOTA is balanced around extremes and there is probably a way to counter it and there probably are better undiscovered strategies out there. I love how this game is balanced because it's so volatile.
Maybe it's as simple as don't play 4 protect 1 so you can force team fights against Pudge and Chen because in team fights it still comes down to 4v4. Maybe it comes to strong split pushing. Maybe it comes down to turtle-ing. But what I do know is the bitching is ridiculous!
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 risk. Like getting into the loser's bracket? Right. Huge amounts of money is on the line. There is a risk involved. Now they are guaranteed top 3 finish.
Like I said, it's very difficult to pull off properly. Loda and Akke should know.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote: [quote] That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning.
It has nothing to do with it being 'imbalanced' or 'broken.' It's just fundamentally wrong to allow a team with Pudge to basically lose the early game while still having a chance to instagib any hero on the map late in the game. It basically makes Pudge scale in a way that he is obviously not intended to scale, since his early to mid game when he hits 7-16 is suppose to be when he roams and establishes dominance on the map. If you survive that, you should have the advantage and you should be easily to win. Fountain hooking however in the correct line-up allows you to stall games for quite sometime, especially if you manage to hit a couple of key hooks.
Allowing fountain hooking basically takes that equation out. And I am almost 100% sure that the Devs only allowed it into the game because they didn't think anyone would have the execution to pull it off anywhere near consistently. After seeing what we just saw, that's clearly not the case. I'm almost certain that it's going to be removed by Icefrog, because he already has past history in removing 1 shot mechanics in the game (see Chen+Impetus removal, along with a few other things like removal of Goblin Gambler or w/e his name is) if he deems it unfair.
The amount of whining you're doing in this thread is truly remarkable, If this was anyother team doing fountain hooks (say TongFu against navi) you would be riding them hard. Judging from you're previous posts in this thread, you are incredibly biased towards Chinese teams lol. If your saying that losing the early game, then being able to instagib any one later I fundamentally wrong then we should just out right ban Rat dota, since even teams playing like that may lose the early game, they can reach the farm on carries (for example AM, ring any bells?) to DESTROY any team. Also, your tears taste salty. Also, you seem to hate everything about DotA lol, so why bother watching it, you hate teams farming, you hate seeing pudge, you hate everything exciting its seems lol. You want all games to be like the 100min one from day 2? is that PROPER DotA?
Yeah, the whining about the "my team lost and they played so perfectly, how dare they use something that has been around for 3 years and is super hard to pull off," is a blast to watch. If a Chinese team tried to pull this off, he would be defending it, saying it was all Na'Vi fault for not knowing how to deal with it.
No, I would still call it cheesy/borderline exploit. Just like how I called iG vs DK the most boring game on the planet.
One shot mechanics are cheap. Especially when they give you a mechanic to comeback with almost no risk.
I kinda doubt that, but we will never know since those teams are very unlikely to try a high risk, high reward line up like that.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
Yeah, he seems to define zero risk in such a way that a hail mary pass would be zero risk.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
Yeah marine micro not the best example... but I'd say using the patrol button on vultures to be untouchable against pretty much any melee unit on land is a mechanic in the game that is more relevant... Also using the chinese triangle with stacked mutas to have scourge about to hit your mutas to for some reason just stop and go backwards for a split second so you get pot shots... heck even muta stacking (only jaedong could pull of two control groups of stacked mutas and micro them well) so that marines don't all focus the same muta is "cheap" but that's what makes the game what it is, and that's why I love BW.... i can't do it, but when i do see someone who is better than I am do it, my appreciation for the game increases... so much hate going around
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
Like I said, as long as Na'vi is doing it near a tower there's basically 0 risk in Dendi doing a fountain hook, and as they get closer to their base there's no risk at all. And their line-up wasn't based around fountain hooking; the only reason why they started fountain hooking was because they realized they needed to do it to instagib people to stall long enough for Hvost to farm an Abyssal to 1v1 Gyro.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 risk. Like getting into the loser's bracket? Right. Huge amounts of money is on the line. There is a risk involved. Now they are guaranteed top 3 finish.
Like I said, it's very difficult to pull off properly. Loda and Akke should know.
He means zero risk ingame, not external factors like money on the line or elimination. Heck, that is what everyone in this thread means when they says 0 risk.
On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote: Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
Like I said, as long as Na'vi is doing it near a tower there's basically 0 risk in Dendi doing a fountain hook, and as they get closer to their base there's no risk at all. And their line-up wasn't based around fountain hooking; the only reason why they started fountain hooking was because they realized they needed to do it to instagib people to stall long enough for Hvost to farm an Abyssal to 1v1 Gyro.
So they lost the Team fight? so how is it the fault of the fountain hook that TF lost that game? because they let the alch farm to his hearts content and them roll over them late game, much like a PL or a AM, or hell, DK, Doom, SF would do if you let them get to 7k HIGHER net worth than your carry.
On August 11 2013 01:21 Gentso wrote: This is far from the first time this has been used competitively. But the hillarious thing is how everyone who is whining is posting about how the game "should" work. Terrible mindset that leads to league of legends balance and starcraft level bitching.
DS + Naga Siren was much worse than this. IMO Phantom Lancer late game is worse right now. But I don't let any of it bother me, because DOTA is balanced around extremes and there is probably a way to counter it and there probably are better undiscovered strategies out there. I love how this game is balanced because it's so volatile.
Maybe it's as simple as don't play 4 protect 1 so you can force team fights against Pudge and Chen because in team fights it still comes down to 4v4. Maybe it comes to strong split pushing. Maybe it comes down to turtle-ing. But what I do know is the bitching is ridiculous!
Are you stupid or what.
I guess that wanting to remove an instagibbing mechanic that completly ignores the amount of farm the enemy hero has leads to "league of legends balance". LOL
0 risk. Like getting into the loser's bracket? Right. Huge amounts of money is on the line. There is a risk involved. Now they are guaranteed top 3 finish.
Like I said, it's very difficult to pull off properly. Loda and Akke should know.
He means zero risk ingame, not external factors like money on the line or elimination. Heck, that is what everyone in this thread means when they says 0 risk.
Agreed. My goodness, the level of stupidity in DotA threads...
On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote: [quote] That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
Like I said, as long as Na'vi is doing it near a tower there's basically 0 risk in Dendi doing a fountain hook, and as they get closer to their base there's no risk at all. And their line-up wasn't based around fountain hooking; the only reason why they started fountain hooking was because they realized they needed to do it to instagib people to stall long enough for Hvost to farm an Abyssal to 1v1 Gyro.
So they lost the Team fight? so how is it the fault of the fountain hook that TF lost that game? because they let the alch farm to his hearts content and them roll over them late game, much like a PL or a AM, or hell, DK, Doom, SF would do if you let them get to 7k HIGHER net worth than your carry.
You do realize the closer they get to Na'vi's base the easier it is for them to hook you right? Especially if you try to breach high ground? Pudge is a high risk high reward hero, but with Chen and proper execution of fountain hooking, he becomes a huge turtle mechanic for a team. One hook means it ends all pushes instantly, no matter how much farm you have. That means that Pudge now is relevant throughout the entire game no matter what, which obviously should not be the case.
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
The one when he hooked the Visage? He had to TP tier 2 mid when the fight was breaking at top rune. Most of the hooks landed were open-field ones with Dendi having no instant tower to TP + he needed to stay in the fountain to secure the kill, which lasted him another like 10 seconds.
The reason why TongFu lost was because their team fights were sub-par. They had multiple chances to run over Na'Vi but they are not used to pushing edges like that. The strat isn't OP for a number of reasons. Already mentioned was the level of execution you need to pull it. Secondly, your "zero risk" proposition is flawed. With the proper execution from the other side it could be punished heavily. TongFu didn't have the experience and the style to punish it. It doesn't mean that teams won't adapt and Na'Vi could pull it on a constant basis successfully. Just TongFu were caught off-guard (just like game 1).
On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote: If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it.
Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
The one when he hooked the Visage? He had to TP tier 2 mid when the fight was breaking at top rune. Most of the hooks landed were open-field ones with Dendi having no instant tower to TP + he needed to stay in the fountain to secure the kill, which lasted him another like 10 seconds.
The reason why TongFu lost was because their team fights were sub-par. They had multiple chances to run over Na'Vi but they are not used to pushing edges like that. The strat isn't OP for a number of reasons. Already mentioned was the level of execution you need to pull it. Secondly, your "zero risk" proposition is flawed. With the proper execution from the other side it could be punished heavily. TongFu didn't have the experience and the style to punish it. It doesn't mean that teams won't adapt and Na'Vi could pull it on a constant basis successfully. Just TongFu were caught off-guard (just like game 1).
No one said it is 'op' in the sense that it is used throughout the entire game to kill people. It's 'broken' in the sense that Pudge can use it as a zoning/stalling mechanic in a way that is obviously unintended (because it was left in for 'hilarity' factor) as it allows him to kill anyone for free.
And it is zero risk when you're doing it near a tower. Pudge can just TP back in, and all Na'vi were doing was stalling. Any fountain hooks were just pluses.
On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote: [quote]
It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
I'd like to see you and a friend abuse this, if it's that easy.
In the particular situation that Na'vi were in, there was 0 risk involved because the game was already lost. Had they not gotten the fountain Hook, Hao walks down with his team and kills a rax easy.
0 Risk? looooool, when you have the balls to try and pull that strat, in a LAN, with >1Mill dollars on the line, you say that there is 0 risk. If TF had aggressively engaged when dendi missed hooks, and took Team fights 4v5 (like they should have been doing) they may very well have turned it around.
Tongfu attempted that once in the game and got wiped because Dend did the fountain hook near the tower, tp'd back and they proceeded to wipe Tongfu.
Like I said, as long as Na'vi is doing it near a tower there's basically 0 risk in Dendi doing a fountain hook, and as they get closer to their base there's no risk at all. And their line-up wasn't based around fountain hooking; the only reason why they started fountain hooking was because they realized they needed to do it to instagib people to stall long enough for Hvost to farm an Abyssal to 1v1 Gyro.
So they lost the Team fight? so how is it the fault of the fountain hook that TF lost that game? because they let the alch farm to his hearts content and them roll over them late game, much like a PL or a AM, or hell, DK, Doom, SF would do if you let them get to 7k HIGHER net worth than your carry.
You do realize the closer they get to Na'vi's base the easier it is for them to hook you right? Especially if you try to breach high ground? Pudge is a high risk high reward hero, but with Chen and proper execution of fountain hooking, he becomes a huge turtle mechanic for a team. One hook means it ends all pushes instantly, no matter how much farm you have. That means that Pudge now is relevant throughout the entire game no matter what, which obviously should not be the case.
Yeah, you only need to cast send home and be in the perfect position, catch the right hero, not hit a fimilar, not get stunned during the 6 seconds it takes to send home and not wiff. Its super easy. With a force staff, you only need 2 or 3 heroes to get it off without a hitch.
On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote: If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it.
Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant.
He likely shouldn't have been in the lead of the fight, which is how he got hooked. If he stayed behind a support, he would have flack cannoned his way to victory.
This "strat" ( I wouldn't even call it strat tbh, but whatever ) is OP for the simple fact that, if executed correctly, it can instagib every single hero ignoring the amount of farm it has. If people can't see this, then you need a pair of glasses and a reality check.
EPT
