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On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
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On August 10 2013 22:57 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just finished watching Navi vs TongFu. What a shit series, TongFu got pretty much cheesed out of the Winner Bracket.
Navi touching the bottom of the barrel.
They got outplayed and lost their nerve. It not like they have never seen it before and it is impossible to deal with.
Next thing you know people are going to be bitching about level 1 roash line ups that use TPs to get their early enough.
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On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
Your analogy is retarded. Fountain hooking closer to something like muta stacking in BW that takes skill to pull off effectively but is extremely rewarding if executed right. Plus, read the descriptions of the spells. It's interacting in exactly the way they should be.
Your crying is ridiculous
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Guys, do you know how petty balance discussion starts?
By engaging the whine. So don't do it.
On August 10 2013 22:08 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:03 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 21:58 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 21:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow reading the LR thread while watching yesterday's games is pretty painful, I'd say it's like a sc2 thread except now sc2 LR threads are pretty good and mostly positive, so it's more like a one or two years old sc2 LR thread.
Alliance won ? Nerf batrider, nerf song, PL imba, nerf illuminate, dota 2 waited TI3 to became imbalanced.
edit : hoo, i'm still not at navi's games, seems they did some imba stuff too. Haha, yeah, it is silly that people would be asking that about the alliance game. DK got what they deserved, they let that ridiculous team composition get through the ban-pick phase, it was their own fault, not imbalance. It's what the ban/picks are for. I almost shit myself when they first picked Specter. Who does that? Yeah I was facepalming that whole draft. I mean, I'm not pro, and they know more than me, but I just did not see how that mediocre lineup was going to work against what they let Alliance have uncontested.....
I think DK would have had a really good chance with Magnus mid instead of Alchemist.
Super has been really good with blink rp in this years tournament. So many multi hero rps singlehandedly turning teamfights around.
Also really excited about today's match between Navi and Alliance. The few times I saw Alliance lose it was to smart aggressive play. On the other hand Navi has been looking quite shaky yesterday vs. Tongfu.
I also think it's a long overdue match in a tournament, since somehow both teams didn't seem to meet each other in any recent tournaments
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
The tears in this thread are amazing, I love it.
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The jury's still out on fountain hooks IMO. Certainly they looked imbalanced that game, but Tongfu should have pressured Navi more. Instead they were too busy shitting their pants after the first few fountain hooks landed, giving Navi more space to farm, land more fountain hooks and come back.
And in case anyone is wondering, I wanted Tongfu to win that game. I like Navi the team but often I cheer against them because of the obnoxious fanboys. If Tongfu had won I'd bet my life that instead of fountain hook imba we'd be reading trash like "lol navi was just messing around and trying to entertain the crowd".
edit: also i'm so pissed at DK's draft against alliance in game 3. Picking spectre, expecting Alch to not get raped vs a Bat mid, and last banning timbersaw instead of prophet WTF?
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"Pretty sure this was deemed too hilarious to fix." Valve on fountain hooks.
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If it is illegal and not allowed, the Referee in game has the right to pause the game and DQ Na`VI.
But since it is allowed and built into the game, it is legal.
No use crying over this, TongFu could have pushed and ended it. They lost to themselves.
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On August 10 2013 22:08 BallinWitStalin wrote:
And for the record, if you can successfully pull off chen/pudge fountain hooks, all power to you. That shit is great, not a bug, and fucking HARD to do competitively.
Sick plays. That's the shit you want to encourage, not nerf.
There is a reason only one team can pull it off. All the navi haters here are hilarious.
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I mean, what are you supposed to do? If you can fountain hook, why you can't forcestaff+hook like in dota 1? Why you can't use blink dagger in pudge/venge? These are mechanics that require skills but aren't totally not fun for a competitive game. Remember when you could blink with Lasso. Why would you removes that and not fountain hook?
The no blink on pudge/venge I think was targeted towards pubs since IceFrog didn't want people throwing allies on the cliff (I remember IceFrog mentioning it in a Q&A and that was before forcestaff was introduced).
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I thought the fountain hooks made the game look pretty bad, I'd hate to see the grand finals decided by something like that. I actually don't think Navi intended to just fountain hook all game, it just turned out that they were getting crushed and they felt that was their best chance of a comeback.
Overall I don't think the mechanic is very good for the game, and in addition to that Pudge and Chen are strong enough as is.
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On August 10 2013 23:35 writer22816 wrote:
The jury's still out on fountain hooks IMO. Certainly they looked imbalanced that game, but Tongfu should have pressured Navi more. Instead they were too busy shitting their pants after the first few fountain hooks landed, giving Navi more space to farm, land more fountain hooks and come back.
And in case anyone is wondering, I wanted Tongfu to win that game. I like Navi the team but often I cheer against them because of the obnoxious fanboys. If Tongfu had won I'd bet my life that instead of fountain hook imba we'd be reading trash like "lol navi was just messing around and trying to entertain the crowd".
edit: also i'm so pissed at DK's draft against alliance in game 3. Picking spectre, expecting Alch to not get raped vs a Bat mid, and last banning timbersaw instead of prophet WTF?
Honestly, I am not a Navi fanboy, I usually cheer against them (I like the smaller teams), and I think they sometimes pull moves that are unsportsmanlike and borderline douchy.
But fuck man, they're entertaining to watch. If Tongfu chen/pudged Navi, I would have though it was just as awesome. This is the thing about Dota, any team can do any strat. We're not talking about protoss vs. terran, etc. etc.The only imbalance introduced into the game by heroes being overpowered is by giving the first pick or second pick team an advantage by giving them first crack at the imbalanced hero/heroes. Any team can try the pudge/chen fountain hook. Navi so far just seem to be the only ones with balls enough to try it, and that shouldn't be nerfed just because of it. It's really not even a good strategy, Tongfu just didn't react properly. 50 bucks says that wouldn't work against a team like Alliance (we may see today, and be entertained in the process!). Let the players adjust.
Again, high-risk reward combinations that require a lot of good micro to pull off are what make games interesting. Bugs made broodwar into what it was. Let this one go.
And muta-stacking is a better analogy than marine-micro, I will give you that.
But it's still completely retarded to compare it to maphacking.
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Wow navi vs TF game 3 was craycray, I knew the result but still couldn't imagine how it would happen. Then they chase nyx into an angry alchemist and the game is turned upside down.
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On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up.
You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it'
Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
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On August 11 2013 00:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up. You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it' Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful.
Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning.
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On August 11 2013 00:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 00:31 superstartran wrote:On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up. You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it' Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful. Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning.
It has nothing to do with it being 'imbalanced' or 'broken.' It's just fundamentally wrong to allow a team with Pudge to basically lose the early game while still having a chance to instagib any hero on the map late in the game. It basically makes Pudge scale in a way that he is obviously not intended to scale, since his early to mid game when he hits 7-16 is suppose to be when he roams and establishes dominance on the map. If you survive that, you should have the advantage and you should be easily to win. Fountain hooking however in the correct line-up allows you to stall games for quite sometime, especially if you manage to hit a couple of key hooks.
Allowing fountain hooking basically takes that equation out. And I am almost 100% sure that the Devs only allowed it into the game because they didn't think anyone would have the execution to pull it off anywhere near consistently. After seeing what we just saw, that's clearly not the case. I'm almost certain that it's going to be removed by Icefrog, because he already has past history in removing 1 shot mechanics in the game (see Chen+Impetus removal, along with a few other things like removal of Goblin Gambler or w/e his name is) if he deems it unfair.
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On August 11 2013 00:56 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 00:53 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 00:31 superstartran wrote:On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up. You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it' Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful. Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning. It has nothing to do with it being 'imbalanced' or 'broken.' It's just fundamentally wrong to allow a team with Pudge to basically lose the early game while still having a chance to instagib any hero on the map late in the game. It basically makes Pudge scale in a way that he is obviously not intended to scale, since his early to mid game when he hits 7-16 is suppose to be when he roams and establishes dominance on the map. If you survive that, you should have the advantage and you should be easily to win. Fountain hooking however in the correct line-up allows you to stall games for quite sometime, especially if you manage to hit a couple of key hooks. Allowing fountain hooking basically takes that equation out. And I am almost 100% sure that the Devs only allowed it into the game because they didn't think anyone would have the execution to pull it off anywhere near consistently. After seeing what we just saw, that's clearly not the case. I'm almost certain that it's going to be removed by Icefrog, because he already has past history in removing 1 shot mechanics in the game (see Chen+Impetus removal, along with a few other things like removal of Goblin Gambler or w/e his name is) if he deems it unfair.
The amount of whining you're doing in this thread is truly remarkable, If this was anyother team doing fountain hooks (say TongFu against navi) you would be riding them hard. Judging from you're previous posts in this thread, you are incredibly biased towards Chinese teams lol. If your saying that losing the early game, then being able to instagib any one later I fundamentally wrong then we should just out right ban Rat dota, since even teams playing like that may lose the early game, they can reach the farm on carries (for example AM, ring any bells?) to DESTROY any team.
Also, your tears taste salty.
Also, you seem to hate everything about DotA lol, so why bother watching it, you hate teams farming, you hate seeing pudge, you hate everything exciting its seems lol. You want all games to be like the 100min one from day 2? is that PROPER DotA?
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tbh that pudge game...TF managed early well but not good enough because you see xboct just stick with team after about 13mins and taking the whole map very quickly, spec was then locked down, GG. banana and sansheng were absolutely retarded reacting to pudge, they played worse than some players i have seen in pub, where i needed to pause the game and told him, 'hey do you that yellow X mark on the map? DONT FCKING GO NEAR IT and keep in mind that there is PUDGE in this game' and still proceed to get hooked.
Like that one time where spec was low hp and sansheng was farming the stack, like, WTF? the pudge was so close to you guys and you didnt start to run until dendi literally stood right beside him, he disrupted and then.....tp.....bro? Just run back to your t2?
As if these guys never played against a pudge in their whole life, and then sd/jakiro just turned complete useless, they should have ganked mid when dendi was with 1 death, nope, farming stack at 10mins. They should have known better once they fucked up early then they would be useless against that line up, more so against an owning pudge. So far i never see some outstanding #4+#5 performance from chinese teams even from DK (while faith+chuan is looking better last night).
And that fountain hook....please.....TF's loss has nothing to do with that, Navi was just being navi there, nothing else.
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On August 11 2013 01:07 Merfyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 00:56 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 00:53 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 00:31 superstartran wrote:On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up. You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it' Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful. Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning. It has nothing to do with it being 'imbalanced' or 'broken.' It's just fundamentally wrong to allow a team with Pudge to basically lose the early game while still having a chance to instagib any hero on the map late in the game. It basically makes Pudge scale in a way that he is obviously not intended to scale, since his early to mid game when he hits 7-16 is suppose to be when he roams and establishes dominance on the map. If you survive that, you should have the advantage and you should be easily to win. Fountain hooking however in the correct line-up allows you to stall games for quite sometime, especially if you manage to hit a couple of key hooks. Allowing fountain hooking basically takes that equation out. And I am almost 100% sure that the Devs only allowed it into the game because they didn't think anyone would have the execution to pull it off anywhere near consistently. After seeing what we just saw, that's clearly not the case. I'm almost certain that it's going to be removed by Icefrog, because he already has past history in removing 1 shot mechanics in the game (see Chen+Impetus removal, along with a few other things like removal of Goblin Gambler or w/e his name is) if he deems it unfair. The amount of whining you're doing in this thread is truly remarkable, If this was anyother team doing fountain hooks (say TongFu against navi) you would be riding them hard. Judging from you're previous posts in this thread, you are incredibly biased towards Chinese teams lol. If your saying that losing the early game, then being able to instagib any one later I fundamentally wrong then we should just out right ban Rat dota, since even teams playing like that may lose the early game, they can reach the farm on carries (for example AM, ring any bells?) to DESTROY any team. Also, your tears taste salty. Also, you seem to hate everything about DotA lol, so why bother watching it, you hate teams farming, you hate seeing pudge, you hate everything exciting its seems lol. You want all games to be like the 100min one from day 2? is that PROPER DotA?
Yeah, the whining about the "my team lost and they played so perfectly, how dare they use something that has been around for 3 years and is super hard to pull off," is a blast to watch. If a Chinese team tried to pull this off, he would be defending it, saying it was all Na'Vi fault for not knowing how to deal with it.
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On August 11 2013 01:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 01:07 Merfyn wrote:On August 11 2013 00:56 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 00:53 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 00:31 superstartran wrote:On August 10 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 22:57 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD. You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard. The point is that it is hard and risky. It is just as likely to net you nothing, having Pudge at home and lost your 4 other teammates to a 4v5. And with a forcestaff, it takes 3 teammates working together to even get it done. It is the go big or go home line up. You make me laugh so hard. There was no risk in the game. Watch it. Na'vi backed off literally every single time. It was a mechanic based on luck, if Dendi gets a few hooks the game goes back into their favor as they've stalled it long enough for XBOCT to 1v1 Hao, if not they lose. It's a silly mechanic and it probably will be removed. Pudge should have to watch his positioning while hooking; there's no 'fundamental' skills that are used to pull this off. The only times that fountain hooking can be used is either when you're really ahead, or when you're really behind. And when used really behind, there's 0 risk in doing it because you're about to lose anyways. The fact that such a comeback mechanic exists where you can instagib almost anyone on the map, anywhere, anytime, is a little bit silly. Magnus requires your whole entire team to clump up, which means you can to an extent outplay it. The only thing you can do to fountain hooking is 'dodge' it or 'block it' Tongfu was taking towers left and right and winning fights because Dendi kept missing hooks. The second he got the hook on Aegis Hao though, that game was over because it delayed it long enough for Hvost to be useful. Haters are going to hate and whiners are going to whine. It if was broken, it would be gone by now or everyone would use it. But its not and teams don't because its hard to pull off and high risk. And don't clump up against Magnus is the same thing as dodge and block, its all up to the skill of the team to protect their core. Just like using fimilars to block the long range arrow of stunning. It has nothing to do with it being 'imbalanced' or 'broken.' It's just fundamentally wrong to allow a team with Pudge to basically lose the early game while still having a chance to instagib any hero on the map late in the game. It basically makes Pudge scale in a way that he is obviously not intended to scale, since his early to mid game when he hits 7-16 is suppose to be when he roams and establishes dominance on the map. If you survive that, you should have the advantage and you should be easily to win. Fountain hooking however in the correct line-up allows you to stall games for quite sometime, especially if you manage to hit a couple of key hooks. Allowing fountain hooking basically takes that equation out. And I am almost 100% sure that the Devs only allowed it into the game because they didn't think anyone would have the execution to pull it off anywhere near consistently. After seeing what we just saw, that's clearly not the case. I'm almost certain that it's going to be removed by Icefrog, because he already has past history in removing 1 shot mechanics in the game (see Chen+Impetus removal, along with a few other things like removal of Goblin Gambler or w/e his name is) if he deems it unfair. The amount of whining you're doing in this thread is truly remarkable, If this was anyother team doing fountain hooks (say TongFu against navi) you would be riding them hard. Judging from you're previous posts in this thread, you are incredibly biased towards Chinese teams lol. If your saying that losing the early game, then being able to instagib any one later I fundamentally wrong then we should just out right ban Rat dota, since even teams playing like that may lose the early game, they can reach the farm on carries (for example AM, ring any bells?) to DESTROY any team. Also, your tears taste salty. Also, you seem to hate everything about DotA lol, so why bother watching it, you hate teams farming, you hate seeing pudge, you hate everything exciting its seems lol. You want all games to be like the 100min one from day 2? is that PROPER DotA? Yeah, the whining about the "my team lost and they played so perfectly, how dare they use something that has been around for 3 years and is super hard to pull off," is a blast to watch. If a Chinese team tried to pull this off, he would be defending it, saying it was all Na'Vi fault for not knowing how to deal with it.
No, I would still call it cheesy/borderline exploit. Just like how I called iG vs DK the most boring game on the planet.
One shot mechanics are cheap. Especially when they give you a mechanic to comeback with almost no risk.
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EPT
