EPTDon't even know what to say about anyone who can't understand what people mean by 0 risk. Guess it makes sense with all the dumbasses you see in game that they are on TL forums as well.
[TI3] Playoffs Day 3 - Page 405
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rob.au
1087 Posts
Don't even know what to say about anyone who can't understand what people mean by 0 risk. Guess it makes sense with all the dumbasses you see in game that they are on TL forums as well. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:48 BlitzerSC wrote: This "strat" ( I wouldn't even call it strat tbh, but whatever ) is OP for the simple fact that, if executed correctly, it can instagib every single hero ignoring the amount of farm it has. If people can't see this, then you need a pair of glasses and a reality check. Then why have we only seen it in one game at TI3? If its so OP, why isn't it used every game like the naga-blackhole of old? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
- Hook in DotA 1 and DotA 2 are VERY different spells. The DotA 2 behavior is listed as an intended change, but that's honestly because the functionality is so different right now that it would take a major overhaul to attempt to replicate the DotA 1 functionality of the spell. - In DotA 1, hook always pulls the target to where you cast hook from,but the end of the hook is displaced by any forced movement you make. This means that any forced movement spell changes the trajectory of the hook by the direction/distance of that forced movement (Force Staff, Glimpse, Relocate, Recall, etc.). However, all these pull the target to the location where Hook was CAST from. - In DotA 2, the hook always pulls the target to where you are when the hook hits, but the Hook's trajectory is fixed the moment you throw it. This is how DotA 2 fountain hooks work--you throw the hook, and are in fountain when it lands. Personally, I prefer the DotA 1 behavior. Not because I consider fountain hooks to be abusive in any way, but because I feel that it gives MANY MORE opportunities for a good Pudge player to show his skill. Particularly using Force Staff to alter the direction/range of a hook. IIRC Dendi was quite good at this in DotA 1, and it's actually a shame that he can't do it in DotA 2. Fountain hooks are still possible with the DotA 1 hook functionality, but they are harder and higher risk because the two spells that bring you TO the hook location long-CD ultimates (Relocate and Recall) whereas Chen's Test of Faith is on a much lower CD. On the other hand, they are even more instantly game-winning when done successfully because Pudge doesn't have to go back to the fountain with his hook target--Pudge's team is 5v4. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:49 Plansix wrote: Then why have we only seen it in one game at TI3? If its so OP, why isn't it used every game like the naga-blackhole of old? GJ, you completly dodged my point with your stupid statement. I won't reply in this thread anymore. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:43 BlitzerSC wrote: Are you stupid or what. I guess that wanting to remove an instagibbing mechanic that completly ignores the amount of farm the enemy hero has leads to "league of legends balance". LOL Nah bro use your brain? Forcing the game to work the way you 'think' it should be balanced, especially right after the series in which it happened, forces the same gameplay and metagame. There's a shit load of other ways to disable a hero without much risk. Alliance blinked in with batrider and then double force staffs to get a free kill on Alchemist late game, which imo is more powerful because it becomes 5v4 at enemy T3. You can definitely draft and play around chen/pudge if you see it coming, and that's the point. That's how I think people should start thinking about balance first before bitching like league players who want the same exact thing every single fucking day! | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
I'd be betting my rares on icefrog removing the possibility... | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:50 TheYango wrote: Some clarification on the mechanics of fountain hooks in DotA 1 compared to DotA 2: - Hook in DotA 1 and DotA 2 are VERY different spells. The DotA 2 behavior is listed as an intended change, but that's honestly because the functionality is so different right now that it would take a major overhaul to attempt to replicate the DotA 1 functionality of the spell. - In DotA 1, hook always pulls the target to where you cast hook from,but the end of the hook is displaced by any forced movement you make. This means that any forced movement spell changes the trajectory of the hook by the direction/distance of that forced movement (Force Staff, Glimpse, Relocate, Recall, etc.). However, all these pull the target to the location where Hook was CAST from. - In DotA 2, the hook always pulls the target to where you are when the hook hits, but the Hook's trajectory is fixed the moment you throw it. This is how DotA 2 fountain hooks work--you throw the hook, and are in fountain when it lands. Personally, I prefer the DotA 1 behavior. Not because I consider fountain hooks to be abusive in any way, but because I feel that it gives MANY MORE opportunities for a good Pudge player to show his skill. Particularly using Force Staff to alter the direction/range of a hook. IIRC Dendi was quite good at this in DotA 1, and it's actually a shame that he can't do it in DotA 2. Fountain hooks are still possible with the DotA 1 hook functionality, but they are harder and higher risk because the two spells that bring you TO the hook location long-CD ultimates (Relocate and Recall) whereas Chen's Test of Faith is on a much lower CD. On the other hand, they are even more instantly game-winning when done successfully because Pudge doesn't have to go back to the fountain with his hook target--Pudge's team is 5v4. Force staff extended the trajectory in wc3 DotA I thought and I cant explain it but I thought there was more of a "curve" to Wc3's hooking. I can't explain it but you can angle your hook one way, force pudge to move in the opposite direction to create a curved trajectory. I don't recall though, it's been a long time ago. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:50 BlitzerSC wrote: GJ, you completly dodged my point with your stupid statement. I won't reply in this thread anymore. Yay, because that's what we wanted in the first place? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote: Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote: Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. I'm in complete agreement. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:59 Kuroeeah wrote: Force staff extended the trajectory in wc3 DotA I thought and I cant explain it but I thought there was more of a "curve" to Wc3's hooking. I can't explain it but you can angle your hook one way, force pudge to move in the opposite direction to create a curved trajectory. I don't recall though, it's been a long time ago. Regular movement allowed you to curve the hook by the same means (end of the hook is directed based on where you moved after Hook left your hand). It's really the same principle, it's just that certain forms of forced movement simply displaced the hook segments rather than just curving the hook because you were moved too far. I think it depends on how far you move from the casting position that determines whether you get a curved hook or a displaced hook, but I'm not 100% sure anymore. Again, I think these things are much better displays of a Pudge player's skill than just having fountain hooks in the game (and fountain hooks are still possible with the DotA 1 functionality, just harder to execute and using a long CD ultimate). Quite honestly I'm certain that anyone who's seen Dendi's curved/Force Staff hook usage in DotA 1 would find that more impressive than just fountain hook execution. | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:01 Sif_ wrote: Navi's game was awesome and people should simply accept that. Its amazing to watch a team with the skill and the balls do something unorthodox and eventually win. I'd take this na'vi style over DK's "we need aegis and 3 cheese to break highground" ANY AND EVERY DAY. What balls? they were getting stomped and did the only thing that gave them a chance to win. Not hating on Navi but these Navi fanboys... | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote: Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:05 rob.au wrote: What balls? they were getting stomped and did the only thing that gave them a chance to win. Not hating on Navi but these Navi fanboys... In the great majority of sports, playing unorthodox takes courage because you look really really stupid if it fails (and it very nearly did). Picking pudge by itself takes balls. Attempting fountain hooks is just bonus. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:09 Sbrubbles wrote: In the great majority of sports, playing unorthodox takes courage because you look really really stupid if it fails (and it very nearly did). Picking pudge by itself takes balls. Attempting fountain hooks is just bonus. Picking Pudge means you should accept that if you lose the early game you're pretty useless outside of hooking someone into your team (even then if you hook the wrong person you get punished). You shouldn't be allowed to have a bad early game (which Dendi did have) and then come back on the whims of a free one shot mechanic every 30 seconds. | ||
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Sif_
Brazil3106 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:05 rob.au wrote: What balls? they were getting stomped and did the only thing that gave them a chance to win. Not hating on Navi but these Navi fanboys... To pick pudge, to get out of their base. As bad as it was going leading up to a massacre late-game, the XP diference was stationary at around 7.5k if i remember correctly. That 2nd aegis was a HUGE deal, maybe even game ending...and that was the FIRST hook to get Hao...he walked in na'vis jungle without vision and paid for it Also, i'm hardly a na'vi fanboy..i bet 4 rares against them on almost every game in allienware cup and lose those rares. I guess you could say im someone who'd rather watch good and entertaining dota | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote: Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On August 11 2013 02:03 TheYango wrote: Regular movement allowed you to curve the hook by the same means (end of the hook is directed based on where you moved after Hook left your hand). It's really the same principle, it's just that certain forms of forced movement simply displaced the hook segments rather than just curving the hook because you were moved too far. I think it depends on how far you move from the casting position that determines whether you get a curved hook or a displaced hook, but I'm not 100% sure anymore. Again, I think these things are much better displays of a Pudge player's skill than just having fountain hooks in the game (and fountain hooks are still possible with the DotA 1 functionality). Ah right this is something I think i do remember. Hook as a spell projectile was segmented in wc3, I think the spell effect was something from fan of knives if I recall. I don't really know how DotA 2 (source) codes hook. I wish I had an insight on how the Source engine operates. The wc3 editor was so intuitive and easy to learn @_@. | ||
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