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On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you.
Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. I don't see how anyone can argue that a 30 second one shot chance is fair, especially when it kills the guy no matter how much farm he has.
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I wonder how much gold was wasted for each failed attempt and how much that would play into a counter strategy.
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On August 11 2013 02:15 Gentso wrote:
I wonder how much gold was wasted for each failed attempt and how much that would play into a counter strategy.
Lost gold didn't matter because they were just stalling for Hvost to get his Abyssal and AC up.
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On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal.
So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked.
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On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked.
Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all.
Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far).
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There's no point in nerfing something that no one targets bans against and only one team did ONCE... If it is indeed OP and so glorious we should expect some pudge/chen first bans/picks and that'll free up some space for the not-OP wisp and bat!
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On August 11 2013 02:11 Sif_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:05 rob.au wrote:On August 11 2013 02:01 Sif_ wrote:
Navi's game was awesome and people should simply accept that. Its amazing to watch a team with the skill and the balls do something unorthodox and eventually win. I'd take this na'vi style over DK's "we need aegis and 3 cheese to break highground" ANY AND EVERY DAY. What balls? they were getting stomped and did the only thing that gave them a chance to win. Not hating on Navi but these Navi fanboys... To pick pudge, to get out of their base. As bad as it was going leading up to a massacre late-game, the XP diference was stationary at around 7.5k if i remember correctly. That 2nd aegis was a HUGE deal, maybe even game ending...and that was the FIRST hook to get Hao...he walked in na'vis jungle without vision and paid for it Also, i'm hardly a na'vi fanboy..i bet 4 rares against them on almost every game in allienware cup and lose those rares. I guess you could say im someone who'd rather watch good and entertaining dota
People accept picking Pudge is cool, some just don't accept going for fountain hooks when it's your only option left to win is ballsy play.
On August 11 2013 02:25 Sif_ wrote:
There's no point in nerfing something that no one targets bans against and only one team did ONCE... If it is indeed OP and so glorious we should expect some pudge/chen first bans/picks and that'll free up some space for the not-OP wisp and bat!
Pudge/Chen may not be overpowered but the fountain hook mechanic when a team is losing might be, or it might just not be good for competitive play in general.
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On August 11 2013 02:25 Sif_ wrote:
There's no point in nerfing something that no one targets bans against and only one team did ONCE... If it is indeed OP and so glorious we should expect some pudge/chen first bans/picks and that'll free up some space for the not-OP wisp and bat!
No one ever argued it was OP; I only argue that it's kinda cheap and lame, and takes alot of Pudge's weaknesses out of the game. It amplifies him greatly with almost no risk or resources. All you need is a force staff and levels to get it going. It's the same reason why Wisp is utterly dumb as hell; he gets 6 and you cannot even show up on the map. Needs no resources, low risk investment (just simply pull until you are 6).
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On August 10 2013 21:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote:
Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing. This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen.
Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
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On August 11 2013 02:33 duckmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:39 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote:
Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing. This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen. Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
If it was that easy, we would see it in every game.
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Watching the Navi/TF G3 replay again, shame TF GGed when they did. I would have paid money to see a Fountain to Fountain hook.
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On August 11 2013 02:33 duckmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:39 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote:
Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing. This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen. Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
Hahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahaha. Laughable
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On August 11 2013 02:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked. Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all. Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far).
But Na'vi had already fountain hooked several of their supports and burned them down. Hao knew what they were trying to do and still ended up on the front line. If he had stayed behind the supports, it wouldn't have happened, dendi would have hooked a support and Hao would have destroyed all of Na'vi. He was out of position and Na've punished it with that combo.Tong Fu could have out played them and use the familiars or a support to screen Hao, but they didn't and lost because of it.
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On August 11 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:18 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked. Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all. Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far). But Na'vi had already fountain hooked several of their supports and burned them down. Hao knew what they were trying to do and still ended up on the front line. If he had stayed behind the supports, it wouldn't have happened, dendi would have hooked a support and Hao would have destroyed all of Na'vi. He was out of position and Na've punished it with that combo.Tong Fu could have out played them and use the familiars or a support to screen Hao, but they didn't and lost because of it.
If one of the supports gets hooked TF still can't push. Once you are high ground it's even easier to fountain hook. Now that I think about it, it's likely TF doesn't even win just because the threat of a fountain hook stalling them forever.
And I fail to see how a one shot mechanic every 30 seconds is considered fair. And before you bring up David Sirlin's dumb book up, need I remind you that the FGC has banned multiple glitches/bugs that are on the level of fountain hooks in terms of inability to outplay it.
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On August 11 2013 02:33 duckmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:39 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote:
Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing. This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen. Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
Have you tried it yourself? I suppose you speak from experience, ROFL. In theory everything is simple to execute. Not to mention that there were 3 people involved. Chen, WR and Pudge. I guess they all suck since they couldn't pull that move every single team, them noobs...
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On August 11 2013 02:44 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:33 duckmaster wrote:On August 10 2013 21:39 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote:
Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing. This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen. Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly. Have you tried it yourself? I suppose you speak from experience, ROFL. In theory everything is simple to execute. Not to mention that there were 3 people involved. Chen, WR and Pudge. I guess they all suck since they couldn't pull that move every single team, them noobs...
4, KKY was scouting while invis. And honestly, fountain hooking isn't THAT hard to execute. It's hard, but it's not impossibly hard if you actually practice it, which obviously Dendi and Ppy did.
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On August 11 2013 02:43 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:18 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
If test of faith and hook were on the same hero, then maybe it would be imba. The fact that at least Dendi and Puppey had to walk the map together meant Tongfu had a window of opportunity on top of every missed hook, but they didn't abuse it.
I do think they needed to play more agressive and buy more mobility items. A blink dagger on Doom and/or DS would have allowed them to force fights a lot harder, for example.
One thing to remember is that even though Navi were hitting fountain hooks every once in a while, they were still losing the game. What really turned things around wasn't the Hao aegis hook, but the terrible terrible fight TF took near the radiant ancients after visage (the least important hero at the moment) got hooked. They yoloed blind into Navi through a terrible angle (probably out of frustration) and payed for it. Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked. Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all. Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far). But Na'vi had already fountain hooked several of their supports and burned them down. Hao knew what they were trying to do and still ended up on the front line. If he had stayed behind the supports, it wouldn't have happened, dendi would have hooked a support and Hao would have destroyed all of Na'vi. He was out of position and Na've punished it with that combo.Tong Fu could have out played them and use the familiars or a support to screen Hao, but they didn't and lost because of it. If one of the supports gets hooked TF still can't push. Once you are high ground it's even easier to fountain hook. Now that I think about it, it's likely TF doesn't even win just because the threat of a fountain hook stalling them forever.
Ah, so now the argument changes to the point where Na'Vi was using an abusive line up and Tong Fu never could have won. I see. Because they can't just screen Hao with the familiars , farm up a necro book and just full the lane with so much bullshit and Dendi is more likely to pull a familiars to the base than Hao. They can outplay the hook.
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Anything in the game that doesn't directly go against the rules of the tournament should be allowed. Unless the game mechanic truly limits the variety of gameplay in a way that it becomes the only viable strategy out there, it's all fair game.
Whether it's cheap or lame should not matter one bit. Players should be able to use what ever they have available the best that they can to win. Kneejerk hard bans would be pretty awful way to go about it. Pretty sure it's not the end all grand strategy.
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On August 11 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:43 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:18 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked. Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all. Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far). But Na'vi had already fountain hooked several of their supports and burned them down. Hao knew what they were trying to do and still ended up on the front line. If he had stayed behind the supports, it wouldn't have happened, dendi would have hooked a support and Hao would have destroyed all of Na'vi. He was out of position and Na've punished it with that combo.Tong Fu could have out played them and use the familiars or a support to screen Hao, but they didn't and lost because of it. If one of the supports gets hooked TF still can't push. Once you are high ground it's even easier to fountain hook. Now that I think about it, it's likely TF doesn't even win just because the threat of a fountain hook stalling them forever. Ah, so now the argument changes to the point where Na'Vi was using an abusive line up and Tong Fu never could have won. I see. Because they can't just screen Hao with the familiars , farm up a necro book and just full the lane with so much bullshit and Dendi is more likely to pull a familiars to the base than Hao. They can outplay the hook.
Yeah, I just think tongfu was EXTREMELY naive...You just need vision and something on the way...and suddenly it's 5v4 for a few moments (enough for a full flak cannon even) for TF to rush in. Park visage's birds in front of everyone, get helm of dominators, necrobooks... I doubt na'vi could pull that off against Alliance today, for example
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On August 11 2013 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 02:43 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:18 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:16 Plansix wrote:On August 11 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 02:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 02:09 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 01:59 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 11 2013 01:47 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
Hao getting hooked was huge. It meant that Tongfu could no longer push and Hvost got just enough time to become relevant. Yes, Hao getting hooked was huge, but so what? But they didn't lose their gold or experience lead right there. Heck, they even took the tower in that push, since Xboct was there for Hao's second death (I'm not 100% sure about this and VODs aren't up yet). Either way, the question is: so what? Dota is made of big plays. You can call Mag imba because 5-man RPs can win fights even if a team is 20k behind, but teams have learned to play against him. It's not Navi's fault TF weren't exactly sure what to do. And you can't declare a strategy imba and uncounterable based on pure theorycrafting and a 1-game sample size. Mag isn't imba because he can be outplayed. He also puts himself in harms way when he uses RP. Also Hao getting hooked was huge because it bought just enough time for Hvost to finally get farmed and carry his team. There was 0 risk in the way Na'vi was using fountain hooks as a defensive tool. I don't think anyone can argue that you should have a chance of one shotting a hero every 30 seconds. That's not fair in the slightest, no matter how hard it is to execute. Pudge/Chen can also be outplayed, but you sound very much convinced that your theorycrafting and your amazing 1-game sample size is enough proof that it can't. I won't bother any more with you. Pudge Chen were being outplayed for the vast majority of the game by Tongfu. Just that Pudge/Chen got a few key fountain hooks that sealed the deal. So they didn't get out played at the time when the key hooks happened? When they put their core on the front line with no support and he became a big beefy target for the hook, that was the part where tongfu fucked up. They don't do that, they stay in the lead. But they fucked up and let their carry get hooked. Getting your carry hooked normally doesn't matter when you are really far ahead because you can still make in time to save him, as he's usually tanky enough to survive the initial burst, essentially making Pudge worthless. That's exactly why fountain hooking is partially controversial because it allows Pudge to kill heroes he normally does not want to hook at all. Good example is in fact Hao's Gyro. If it was under normal circumstances, Hao getting hooked is no big deal, because TF would have just showed up and instagibbed Pudge and the rest of his team since they were ahead. The fact that he got fountain hooked meant his aegis got instantly burned. It's not even like Navi built their line-up around fountain hooking at all; they were just using it as a last shot mechanic to stall and get some key kills. Their line-up is perfectly fine without fountain hooking; the addition of it just makes the line-up way stronger than it normally is (which is considerable when Dendi is the best Pudge in the world by far). But Na'vi had already fountain hooked several of their supports and burned them down. Hao knew what they were trying to do and still ended up on the front line. If he had stayed behind the supports, it wouldn't have happened, dendi would have hooked a support and Hao would have destroyed all of Na'vi. He was out of position and Na've punished it with that combo.Tong Fu could have out played them and use the familiars or a support to screen Hao, but they didn't and lost because of it. If one of the supports gets hooked TF still can't push. Once you are high ground it's even easier to fountain hook. Now that I think about it, it's likely TF doesn't even win just because the threat of a fountain hook stalling them forever. Ah, so now the argument changes to the point where Na'Vi was using an abusive line up and Tong Fu never could have won. I see. Because they can't just screen Hao with the familiars , farm up a necro book and just full the lane with so much bullshit and Dendi is more likely to pull a familiars to the base than Hao. They can outplay the hook.
The closer you get to Navi's high ground the easier it is for Dendi to fountain hook. It in fact, becomes significantly easier. Not to mention, the whole point of the fountain hooking was to stall just long enough for Hvost to get the items he needed. So TF was forced into a situation where they kinda had to go push. There was not enough time to farm up necrobooks/helm of dominators on everyone.
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EPT
