On August 11 2013 03:00 Bisu-Fan wrote: It took me some time finding this VOD but I had to because so many people are whining... Here is another game with a ridiculous amount of fountain hooks... I remember this game and you'll see why Don't know if this will shed any light on the issue. Yes the game didn't matter. Yes, the stakes were lower (but i don't think stakes should affect whether something is broken or not). Y'all can decide whether fountain hooking changed the course of this game...
I went through the trouble of watching the game and noting every instance of any mention of fountain hooking. Sorry for Tobi's cast for those of you who don't like it, but I love kuroky
I went through the whole game getting the times of anything that has to do with fountain hooking + Show Spoiler +
16:00-17:13 pudge's first item BoT and casters discuss the choice and pudge's relevancy in the game 18:00 #1 20:25 #2 20:40-21:34 fountain hook mechanics explained 21:35 #3 22:20-22:35 reference to dendi/pudge fountain hooking 22:35 #4 22:50-23:02 effects of fountain hooking on the pudge 23:35 #5 24:45-24:55 gold/exp graph 26:00 #6 27:40 #7 28:10 #8 29:10 #9 30:15 #10 30:40 #11 31:15 #12 32:56 #13 33:08-33:30 kuroky says "this isn't a real dota game" 33:45 #14 34:40 #15 37:40 #16 38:55 #17 39:55 #18 40:20 #19 41:50 #20 42:50 #21 44:30 #22 46:05 #23 46:34 #24 47:40 #25 48:15 #26 watch minimap 50:05 #27 51:21 #28 52:00 #29 54:30 #30 55:35 #31 58:30 #32 1:00:00 #33 1:01:00 n0tail just camping in base to share gold to team... 1:02:10 #34 1:03:53 #35 1:04:30 #36 1:05:10 #37 1:05:45 #38 1:07:15 #39 1:07:40 #40 1:08:07 #41 1:10:00 #42 1:10:20 #43 1:11:13 #44 1:12:10 #45 1:12:40 #46 1:13:06 #47 1:13:32 #48 watch this one... 1:14:10 game ends...
rofl thats pretty good, especially the last one where dark seer actually survives the ordeal
yup... confirmed way of beating fountain hooking: get a mek, AC, butterfly, shivas and heart :D
On August 11 2013 03:22 Seraphic wrote: Are you STILL complaining? I went to bed, woke up and see you still whining.
You are turning into Azarkon with thread derailing. We get it, you don't like it. Stop posting the same thing over and over with your stance.
Because it's a huge deal when someone abuses a broken bug to win a game? After rewatching some parts of it and studying the fountain hook mechanics more, it's apparent that fountain hooking is in fact broken as fuck. You cannot see it coming, it's a one shot mechanic on a low cooldown, and it doesn't take many resources other than a forcestaff and levels to pull off, while the rewards are skyrocketing high.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
What's interesting is that the visual effect actually matches the DotA 1 functionality (the hook is displaced back to fountain along with Pudge when he is sent home), but the actual spell effect does not (actual hook continues to travel where Pudge was before the teleport).
At the very least, it was a bit hasty to label it an intended change and be done with it. There should have at least been some work to rectify the visuals with what actually happens.
This thread is making me sad... I'm going to bed... Thanks optertown (I don't think I ever really thanked you) for all the tremendous work you've put into the thread; sorry it's been bloated with the heated debate (which I participated in as well)... thanks again though~
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Can you point to which hooks TongFu didn't see. I am curious to check them in the VOD.
why i think Chinese teams are "behind" Western teams this year : •Draft structure, the first banning phase specifically. The majority of the games, I feel the Chinese teams were outdrafted. •Wisp. This hero is probably the #1 reason why I feel Chinese teams are behind and is connected to the whole draft structure thing. Every Chinese team except Rattlesnake has to pay respect to Wisp and the problem is that none of the Chinese teams are confident enough to play the hero and are forced to ban it against team Alliance specifically. This hero is the biggest difference in terms of how the Chinese and West has drafted throughout the year.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Can you point to which hooks TongFu didn't see. I am curious to check them in the VOD.
I think there was one on Visage that was pretty close to max range. Any time the Hook is a longer distance hook and Pudge gets tp'd, the hook is basically invisible. I'm sure it happened at least once or twice, and that's exactly why Tongfu was scared as fuck. Once you establish that you can consistently do it, which Na'vi did, it becomes very scary to go onto their side of the map, especially when you cannot see that you are being hooked.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
I don't think Na'Vi can be blamed for using what was available to them.
I do think Icefrog/Valve need to consider what they want to do with this after TI3. Either restore the DotA 1 functionality so that we get curved hooks and force staff hooks back in the game in exchange for having to use Relocate/Recall fountain hooks rather than ToF hooks, or at least make the visual effect match the actual in-game effect.
On August 11 2013 03:42 Kuroeeah wrote: why i think Chinese teams are "behind" Western teams this year : •Draft structure, the first banning phase specifically. The majority of the games, I feel the Chinese teams were outdrafted. •Wisp. This hero is probably the #1 reason why I feel Chinese teams are behind and is connected to the whole draft structure thing. Every Chinese team except Rattlesnake has to pay respect to Wisp and the problem is that none of the Chinese teams are confident enough to play the hero and are forced to ban it against team Alliance specifically. This hero is the biggest difference in terms of how the Chinese and West has drafted throughout the year.
I think people overestimate the draft advantage, quite honestly.
In many cases, the draft could be considered even or superior for the Chinese teams. There were just many scenarios where they simply did not execute better at critical moments.
For example the LR thread was all saying that DK got outdrafted game 1 by Alliance while 2009 called that draft 70/30 in favor of DK assuming it were not DK vs. Alliance and 2 random equally skilled teams. DK just made more critical mistakes to lose themselves the game.
There seems to be some denial from many places that the Chinese teams are playing worse than Alliance/Na'Vi and are losing at their drafts, when this really isn't the case. Alliance and Na'Vi are playing better, and you have to give them credit for that.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
I don't think Na'Vi can be blamed for using what was available to them.
I do think Icefrog/Valve need to consider what they want to do with this after TI3. Either restore the DotA 1 functionality so that we get curved hooks and force staff hooks back in the game in exchange for having to use Relocate/Recall fountain hooks rather than ToF hooks, or at least make the visual effect match the actual in-game effect.
There's no way they should keep it as is. It's literally a free try at one shotting almost any hero for free (*unless they blink), with no way to see it. I'm sure Tongfu wouldn't have been as afraid if they could actually see the hook coming.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Can you point to which hooks TongFu didn't see. I am curious to check them in the VOD.
I think there was one on Visage that was pretty close to max range. Any time the Hook is a longer distance hook and Pudge gets tp'd, the hook is basically invisible. I'm sure it happened at least once or twice, and that's exactly why Tongfu was scared as fuck. Once you establish that you can consistently do it, which Na'vi did, it becomes very scary to go onto their side of the map, especially when you cannot see that you are being hooked.
I watched the compilation (hooks only) and I didn't see any "invisible" hooks (they became such when the target was hooked and already traveling to the throne). Are they invisible only in-game for the players and don't show in the overall observing or how does it work? I watched the clip with the invisible hook and there weren't any such in the game. Valve probably fixed them.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Did you seriously compare irl to a in-game mechanic?
lol Ok. I won't bother replying after this because of the reaches of your whining. I don't agree with the way NaVi won, however the blame also goes to TongFu. A huge deal only you insist on making it, like how they have banned Azarkon for his East vs West thread derails.
This was a game that TongFu had, one or two fountain hooks on supports didn't mean much. 1-2 out of position mistakes, them chasing after Kky for no reason cost them the game. Something oddly a lot of Chinese teams have been making in TI3. NaVi only won because TongFu's chasing Kky. And for what? A support Nyx?
At that point TongFu's best shot was to cover one of there more important heros because they couldn't stop the hooks, Dendi stopped missing. The one time you stop pressing your advantage is the one time you give NaVi hope. In a game where a team is THAT far ahead. If that said team loses, the blame goes to the team with a huge advantage and throwing it away. They should have adjusted there position better, bait someone so that was gone and GG pushed ASAP instead of giving any breathing room. Be smart about it. Whole team chasing a support Nyx was way too stupid.
On August 11 2013 03:22 Seraphic wrote: Are you STILL complaining? I went to bed, woke up and see you still whining.
You are turning into Azarkon with thread derailing. We get it, you don't like it. Stop posting the same thing over and over with your stance.
Because it's a huge deal when someone abuses a broken bug to win a game? After rewatching some parts of it and studying the fountain hook mechanics more, it's apparent that fountain hooking is in fact broken as fuck. You cannot see it coming, it's a one shot mechanic on a low cooldown, and it doesn't take many resources other than a forcestaff and levels to pull off, while the rewards are skyrocketing high.
Technically speaking, it's not a bug. You can call it broken but valve actively decided to have it become a feature.
On August 11 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote: What's interesting is that the visual effect actually matches the DotA 1 functionality (the hook is displaced back to fountain along with Pudge when he is sent home), but the actual spell effect does not (actual hook continues to travel where Pudge was before the teleport).
At the very least, it was a bit hasty to label it an intended change and be done with it. There should have at least been some work to rectify the visuals with what actually happens.
Honestly I feel fountain hooking in it's current state in DotA 2 simply doesn't have a place here.
The controversial part comes in that in one side of the argument is that it's admittedly hard to execute and it relies on the other team to either be caught out of position or not being able to react in time verses Na'Vi relying on it and that it literally one shotted an aegis'ed Hao and brought him out of the fight completely. Finally this was the first match in competitive play in DotA 2 where Na'vi had to resort to it's use consistently or they would have lost. There shouldn't be an argument here that Na'vi had a chance of winning without it (they didn't) nor should there be comparisons made to other spells such as RP (for obvious reasons).
I like fountain hooking, it is hilarious and it's not the easiest thing to execute but im pretty confident that something will be done about it.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Did you seriously compare irl to a in-game mechanic?
lol Ok. I won't bother replying after this because of the reaches of your whining. I don't agree with the way NaVi won, however the blame also goes to TongFu. A huge deal only you insist on making it, like how they have banned Azarkon for his East vs West thread derails.
This was a game that TongFu had, one or two fountain hooks on supports didn't mean much. 1-2 out of position mistakes, them chasing after Kky for no reason cost them the game. Something oddly a lot of Chinese teams have been making in TI3. NaVi only won because TongFu's chasing Kky. And for what? A support Nyx? Stop.
What are you stupid?
David Sirlin is the biggest hypocrite there is. Do what it takes to win, but we ban shit like Guile handcuffs.
On August 11 2013 03:36 Soap wrote: If it was broken everyone would do it and then everyone would ban it. Are you suggesting teams are pulling punches at the International?
FGC bans shit like guile handcuffs, same shit as fountain hooking. And the fact that we're talking about a one shot mechanic you cannot see coming is a huge deal.
Can you point to which hooks TongFu didn't see. I am curious to check them in the VOD.
I think there was one on Visage that was pretty close to max range. Any time the Hook is a longer distance hook and Pudge gets tp'd, the hook is basically invisible. I'm sure it happened at least once or twice, and that's exactly why Tongfu was scared as fuck. Once you establish that you can consistently do it, which Na'vi did, it becomes very scary to go onto their side of the map, especially when you cannot see that you are being hooked.
I watched the compilation (hooks only) and I didn't see any "invisible" hooks (they became such when the target was hooked and already traveling to the throne). Are they invisible only in-game for the players and don't show in the overall observing or how does it work? I watched the clip with the invisible hook and there weren't any such in the game. Valve probably fixed them.
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. In fact, the one on Aegis Gyro was the biggest culprit, because at that range it is actually possible to dodge the hook, but the fact that Hao saw literally nothing meant he just stood there and died.
I mean if it was just fountain hooking, I wouldn't care as much. But when people are defending it on the basis of "it's hard to execute", I have to stop people because proper curved/force staff hooks are a way better display of a Pudge player's skill than DotA 2 fountain hooks (and are not possible in DotA 2 due to the same mechanic that makes fountain hooks work the way they do) while also not being such a lopsided game mechanic. There's simply no comparison.
On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote: The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too.
Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported.
Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge.
EPT
