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On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the visual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported.
Yep that's exactly why Hao thought he was safe. He didn't see a hook coming out at all, and he thought Chen was doomed.
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On August 11 2013 03:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:42 Kuroeeah wrote:
why i think Chinese teams are "behind" Western teams this year :
•Draft structure, the first banning phase specifically. The majority of the games, I feel the Chinese teams were outdrafted.
•Wisp. This hero is probably the #1 reason why I feel Chinese teams are behind and is connected to the whole draft structure thing. Every Chinese team except Rattlesnake has to pay respect to Wisp and the problem is that none of the Chinese teams are confident enough to play the hero and are forced to ban it against team Alliance specifically. This hero is the biggest difference in terms of how the Chinese and West has drafted throughout the year.
I think people overestimate the draft advantage, quite honestly. In many cases, the draft could be considered even or superior for the Chinese teams. There were just many scenarios where they simply did not execute better at critical moments. For example the LR thread was all saying that DK got outdrafted game 1 by Alliance while 2009 called that draft 70/30 in favor of DK assuming it were not DK vs. Alliance and 2 random equally skilled teams. DK just made more critical mistakes to lose themselves the game. There seems to be some denial from many places that the Chinese teams are playing worse than Alliance/Na'Vi and are losing at their drafts, when this really isn't the case. Alliance and Na'Vi are playing better, and you have to give them credit for that.
I think the reason for why Na'Vi and Alliance having the upper hand is different from each other, based on the strengths of both teams.
Alliance without a doubt has one of the best late game oriented decision making in a team I've seen. Every other team, even Na'Vi struggles against Chinese teams late game superiority IMO. What a LOT of Chinese teams have in common is how good they are at defending their high ground (tier 3). Like seriously, breaking into there base is so difficult.
Na'Vi's strength isnt their late game decisions but..I don't know, they team fight really good?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:04 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the visual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Yep that's exactly why Hao thought he was safe. He didn't see a hook coming out at all, and he thought Chen was doomed.
That particular example is the most striking because the visual hook and the actual hook are coming almost perpendicular to one another. But it applies to every other case where dodging the hook you see could still cause you to walk into the actual hook, because the actual hook comes from where Pudge was a second ago, and the hook you see is aimed at the same target location but originating from the fountain.
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United States47024 Posts
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On August 11 2013 03:55 TheYango wrote:
I mean if it was just fountain hooking, I wouldn't care as much. But when people are defending it on the basis of "it's hard to execute", I have to stop people because proper curved/force staff hooks are a way better display of a Pudge player's skill than DotA 2 fountain hooks (and are not possible in DotA 2 due to the same mechanic that makes fountain hooks work the way they do) while also not being such a lopsided game mechanic. There's simply no comparison.
It's not so much it's hard to execute, but incredibly risky. If they miss the timing or the hook, they're fighting 4v5 while behind. Besides having to pick Pudge in the first place. It's much like rapier Gyro, except it takes more skill than just not dieing.
People are antsy because TF failed either to ban the hero (like last year), or to account for the possiblity and not waltz into teamfights, and paid dearly for it. Just another day of Dota.
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On August 11 2013 04:13 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:55 TheYango wrote:
I mean if it was just fountain hooking, I wouldn't care as much. But when people are defending it on the basis of "it's hard to execute", I have to stop people because proper curved/force staff hooks are a way better display of a Pudge player's skill than DotA 2 fountain hooks (and are not possible in DotA 2 due to the same mechanic that makes fountain hooks work the way they do) while also not being such a lopsided game mechanic. There's simply no comparison. It's not so much it's hard to execute, but incredibly risky. If they miss the timing or the hook, they're fighting 4v5 while behind. Besides having to pick Pudge in the first place. It's much like rapier Gyro, except it takes more skill than just not dieing. People are antsy because TF failed either to ban the hero (like last year), or to account for the possiblity and not waltz into teamfights, and paid dearly for it. Just another day of Dota.
I don't buy into this at all. From Na'Vi's position it wasn't a risk, it was their ONLY plausible chance they could win the game at all.
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On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge.
The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
honestly i'm not buying the high risk aspect of fountain hooks, especially when they probably wouldn't have otherwise won the game anyway
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On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise.
What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still.
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On August 11 2013 04:13 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:55 TheYango wrote:
I mean if it was just fountain hooking, I wouldn't care as much. But when people are defending it on the basis of "it's hard to execute", I have to stop people because proper curved/force staff hooks are a way better display of a Pudge player's skill than DotA 2 fountain hooks (and are not possible in DotA 2 due to the same mechanic that makes fountain hooks work the way they do) while also not being such a lopsided game mechanic. There's simply no comparison. It's not so much it's hard to execute, but incredibly risky. If they miss the timing or the hook, they're fighting 4v5 while behind. Besides having to pick Pudge in the first place. It's much like rapier Gyro, except it takes more skill than just not dieing. People are antsy because TF failed either to ban the hero (like last year), or to account for the possiblity and not waltz into teamfights, and paid dearly for it. Just another day of Dota.
I can't 100% agree with this, if Pudge's team is performing a base defense it does not take long for Pudge to walk back out to his team, which makes it really hard to push Tier 3s against this sort of lineup.
But really the way it works in WC3 has a lot more depth to it and keeping how it is now because they thought it was funny was sort of dumb in the first place.
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On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible.
I am still waiting to show me one example where they got "invis hooked", yet still you fail to provide one.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:26 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. I am still waiting to show me one example where they got "invis hooked", yet still you fail to provide one.
are you saying that yango doesn't know the mechanics? he just explained why a few posts above
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On August 11 2013 04:26 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. I am still waiting to show me one example where they got "invis hooked", yet still you fail to provide one.
What? We just told you that the hook on Aegis Gyro was one, and the one on Doom is essentially is one also. The fact that the visual cues are either completely fucked up or don't even appear at all make it an invisible hook.
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It wasn't, check the VODs, please. The hook isn't invisible. Changing trajectory isn't equal to invisible...
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still.
Alternatively if he sees the the hook coming from the left, and dodges up/down, he still walks straight into the hook.
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook.
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On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still.
The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight.
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On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight.
Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video.
The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies.
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I think it can be risky but tf never made the right decisions so it would be in this specific game. They had xboct on lockdown but left him alone for a looooong time. They saw that pudge was going home every 30 seconds, throwing all his farm into tp scrolls to come back that tiny bit faster. They could've flanked navi with blink daggers or shadow blades. Maybe I'm wrong on this one because but I really felt that tf had this in the back if they were not that scared.
So what if one of you got fountain hooked? Until xboct got the bkb navi was chanceless. And then there came this one fight at radiant ancients in which there wasn't even fountain hooking. They seemed surprise by xbocts farm and clueless what to do, maybe because everything they could think of was the danger of getting hooked.
The fountain did some good work but the game was decided by nerves, confidence and attitude.
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On August 11 2013 04:07 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 03:43 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:42 Kuroeeah wrote:
why i think Chinese teams are "behind" Western teams this year :
•Draft structure, the first banning phase specifically. The majority of the games, I feel the Chinese teams were outdrafted.
•Wisp. This hero is probably the #1 reason why I feel Chinese teams are behind and is connected to the whole draft structure thing. Every Chinese team except Rattlesnake has to pay respect to Wisp and the problem is that none of the Chinese teams are confident enough to play the hero and are forced to ban it against team Alliance specifically. This hero is the biggest difference in terms of how the Chinese and West has drafted throughout the year.
I think people overestimate the draft advantage, quite honestly. In many cases, the draft could be considered even or superior for the Chinese teams. There were just many scenarios where they simply did not execute better at critical moments. For example the LR thread was all saying that DK got outdrafted game 1 by Alliance while 2009 called that draft 70/30 in favor of DK assuming it were not DK vs. Alliance and 2 random equally skilled teams. DK just made more critical mistakes to lose themselves the game. There seems to be some denial from many places that the Chinese teams are playing worse than Alliance/Na'Vi and are losing at their drafts, when this really isn't the case. Alliance and Na'Vi are playing better, and you have to give them credit for that. I think the reason for why Na'Vi and Alliance having the upper hand is different from each other, based on the strengths of both teams. Alliance without a doubt has one of the best late game oriented decision making in a team I've seen. Every other team, even Na'Vi struggles against Chinese teams late game superiority IMO. What a LOT of Chinese teams have in common is how good they are at defending their high ground (tier 3). Like seriously, breaking into there base is so difficult. Na'Vi's strength isnt their late game decisions but..I don't know, they team fight really good?
Na'vi has the best teamwork of any team, I think. They pull off amazing comebacks all the time because there will be a teamfight and suddenly Na'vi will just wipe them 5-0 and snowball from there while the casters and spectators go "what the hell how did they do that."
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EPT
